twommnewbie Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Joined the 2mm Fscale association at Peterborough and have just finished my first wagon kit that came as part of the package. To say it has been a learning curve would be an understatement. The experience has pretty well put me off the idea. The instructions with the kit were very poor and although there was a diagram showing all the parts none were labelled so identifying parts was impossible and there were duplicate parts which weren`t mentioned. The instructions in the 2mm handbook were slightly more informative, the soldereing of some parts were an issue i couln`t get them to stick and then the chassis came apart because I had folded too many times! Happy days. The result is pretty well rubbish and will look ok in my proposed scrapyard as part of my planned layout. However, I will need to improve if the scrapyard isn`t to become like Vic Berry`s at Leicester! How can I get to grips with the insanely fine etches without ruining too many kits? As a side note I have built some easitrac and again I have struggled I can`t work out which way up the track goes and how you join the lengths of track together without track joiners surely you don`t solder every join? May be I am not cut out for the skill level required but I will persevier for a while yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium nick_bastable Posted November 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2011 most chassis instructions are uploaded to the 2mm web site or VAG yahoo site ive been trying for 10 years and still keep learning, join VAG and ask questions and if you can make it try to get to a area group keep going it does get easier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 65179 Posted November 24, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 24, 2011 Don't give up! I don't think there are too many of us 2mil modellers who haven't made a mess of a wagon etch at some stage. The key as with all soldering is practice. It's not clear from your post how much soldering experience you have, but there are plenty of folk on here that can give you some tips on what to do if you need it. For your next wagon choose one of the ones from the shop with better instructions (the shop pages have some of them available to view). Otherwise Stephen Harris's 16T mineral (as per the group build thread) may be a good option as they are so well designed. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerbread Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Joined the 2mm Fscale association at Peterborough and have just finished my first wagon kit that came as part of the package. Welcome To say it has been a learning curve would be an understatement. The experience has pretty well put me off the idea. Yes it's tough at first, but it should get better if you persevere. The instructions with the kit were very poor and although there was a diagram showing all the parts none were labelled so identifying parts was impossible and there were duplicate parts which weren`t mentioned. Yes, I agree that the instructions are generally too difficult for a beginner (and I made the same complaint myself as a newcomer last year). The instructions in the 2mm handbook were slightly more informative, the soldering of some parts were an issue i couldn`t get them to stick and then the chassis came apart because I had folded too many times! Happy days. The result is pretty well rubbish and will look ok in my proposed scrapyard as part of my planned layout. However, I will need to improve if the scrapyard isn`t to become like Vic Berry`s at Leicester! How can I get to grips with the insanely fine etches without ruining too many kits? Practice. Unfortunately there is no single "right" way - experiment to find a way that suits you, then keep practising (use some of the scrap pieces left over from your fist etch before going much further with additional etches). Some suggestions for you: 1) As has already been suggested, join a local area group if you have one nearby, and the VAG. There should be a list of Area Groups, with contact details, in the Newsletter. 2) If you are not experienced at soldering, there's some useful advice on the Carrs site at http://www.finescale...&id=27&Itemid=2 3) The main things that I found difficult when soldering were (i) holding the pieces together for a few seconds after applying the heat, until the joint had set solid (not being one of the lucky few with a third hand and asbestos fingers...) (ii) cleaning up thoroughly for a second attempt, after the first had failed (iii) cleaning off the flux after a successful joint 4) Make sure that you have suitable tools - which depends to some extent on your personal preferences, but as a minimum I would suggest (i) soldering iron (ii) solder (lead free is generally NOT recommended) (iii) flux (though personally I prefer solder paint that combines the solder and flux in a single liquid) (iv) sharp knife (v) small file (vi) small broaches to open out holes as needed (e.g. the holes for the top hat bearings) When I started I had great difficulty soldering in the top hat bearings - many of my joints were poor, and the bearings dropped out again. What worked for me was to change the order of construction - I nowsolder in the bearings while the frame is flat (in doing so I found it much easier to press the frame down on top of the bearing and hold it there after applying the soldering iron), instead of following the usually-recommended order of folding up the sides first then soldering in the bearing next. Others would suggest that you build a simple jig to allow you to hold the bearing in place after bending the frame - find whatever suits you. This is one of the reasons why the instructions often don't work well for beginners - the method they recommend (if indeed they give any detailed recommendation) might not work for you... As a side note I have built some easitrac and again I have struggled I can`t work out which way up the track goes and how you join the lengths of track together without track joiners surely you don`t solder every join? If you are using bullhead rail, it is indeed very difficult to distinguish "top" from "bottom", and they are so similar that it probably isn't really critical to get it right. The prototype was originally intended to be turned over when the top was worn, so was intended to be virtually symmetrical (i.e. top virtually identical to bottom), though in practice it was rarely turned over in that manner. I made a similar mistake with my first batch of easitrac - I carefully assembled numerous short pieces with a correct prototypical length of 45 feet (i.e. just under 4 inches long). I then realised that fishplates in 2mm are purely cosmetic, rather than used for electrical connection, and are usually omitted. So each short set of easitrac would need to be separately wired up, by soldering a wire to the rail (or soldering a brass half-sleeper to the rail, and a wire to the half-sleeper), without melting the plastic sleepers ... So for my next batches I assembled them in lengths of 50 cm (as supplied from the central shop), and if I am still interested in prototypical accuracy I will add some dummy joins at 45 feet intervals by nicking the tops of the rails. May be I am not cut out for the skill level required but I will persevier for a while yet. All of us have times when we have struggled, and thought about giving up - persevere for a bit longer and see if it suits you (it does get easier, for all of us). David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted November 24, 2011 Share Posted November 24, 2011 Firstly, hello I'll deal with the easiest question first. The rail goes into the Easitrac bases with the flatter of the two narrow surfaces upwards (look at it under a desk lamp and you'll hopefully see what I mean). To be honest, it doesn't matter that much if you get it upside down on the sample piece - it isn't very noticeable. You don't use rail joiners in 2mm FS - adjacent pieces of track are fixed down and aligned using a track gauge, but not joined. Each section of track is fed with electrical power separately through the baseboard. Assuming you bought the beginner's guide, the instructions in that are better than those in the kit, so use those where you can. There are improved instructions being prepared for the kits, and also a video is in the very early stages of development. The current kit instructions assume that you have some prior knowledge of kit construction. As the others have said, we don't know how much experience you have of soldering, so it's difficult to know how to help you specifically on this without the risk of telling you things you might already know. You need to clean the parts with a fibreglass pencil before soldering. I have found a 25watt iron about the best for 2mm modelling - it's small enough to get into the nooks and crannies, and delivers enough heat to form the soldered joints quickly. Use a flux - I prefer fluxite paste, but others use phosphoric acid. All are available from tool stands at model railway exhibitions. Unfortunately nickel silver is a bit unforgiving when it comes to folding - you rarely get more than two chances to make a fold before the joint will break. I would suggest putting a small amount of solder on the tip of the iron and running it down the fold line once you're happy with it - that strengthens the fold enormously and should help. If you could post a few photos, we might be able to help more. Perhaps you could bring the kit to the 2mm stand at a future exhibition - there should be someone there who could talk you through the solutions. Above all, don't give up - as Simon has said, most of us have messed-up a kit (or two, or three....) at some point. It's all part of the learning curve, and you'll learn from your mistakes. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 I was going to write something more but it has already been covered by others. I am pleased to read that you intend to persevere. Was it the Sunday that you joined us? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
twommnewbie Posted November 25, 2011 Author Share Posted November 25, 2011 Hi Thanks for all the useful advice - I will keep you posted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelb Posted November 25, 2011 Share Posted November 25, 2011 just to add my support . dont give up we all had similar problems with the 1st etched kit in my case the 2nd and 3rd too but in the end it gets easier Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan76 Posted November 26, 2011 Share Posted November 26, 2011 Stick with it. You will get better. In addition to the above advice you might find it useful to buy some miniature crocodile clips or bulldog clips to hold the bits together while you solder them. For example, adding the extra layers to form the solebars is much easier if, after tinning the two surfaces you want to solder, you then add more flux (unlike Andy I prefer Carr's liquid flux applied with an old paintbrush) and then hold them together using the clips. You can run the tip of your iron along the joint. Listen for the flux sizzling and move slowly along. I'd endorse the advice to sloder in top hat bearings before bending up the etch. Use a small broach if necessary to ream out the hole so the bearing is a good, comfortable fit. Flux it, load you iron with a bit of solder and it should flash around the joint, being carried by the flux. It doesn't work every time, so don't get discouraged. This isn't Airfix, but it is very rewarding when you get it right. Alan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
twommnewbie Posted November 26, 2011 Author Share Posted November 26, 2011 Thanks again useful advice especially the soldering which I can claim I haven`t done in this scale before. I am going back to my Panther tank for now in 1/35 scale to give my eyes a rest! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
djgriff Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Hi as others have said don't give up, having recently enterd the relms of 2mm i have built 3 of the 16 ton starter kits, the first one refused to run and looked a mess while the third i'm really pleased with so once again please don't give up. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 It is worth persevering as 2mm is a very rewarding scale to model in. As to giving your eyes a rest, if you don't have one, get yourself a headband magnifier such as an Optivisor or similar. It makes a world of difference when working with 2mm stuff. I couldn't contemplate 2mm scale without one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gingerbread Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 As to giving your eyes a rest, if you don't have one, get yourself a headband magnifier such as an Optivisor or similar. It makes a world of difference when working with 2mm stuff. I couldn't contemplate 2mm scale without one. Another case of "Find what suits you" - personally I am in complete agreement with Natalie here, and wouldn't be without my magnifier, but many other 2mm modellers seem to be quite happy without one. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 I don't find it necessary to use a magnifier for most 2mm modelling, but I do find that I need plenty of light. I have an Ikea set of three LED spotlights fixed to the cupboard above my workbench, and occasionally use a desk lamp (with a magnifier for those jobs where I need it!). Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted November 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 27, 2011 I have one of those manifiers with a built in light (daylight tube) which I find helpful. Except that my fingers look as fat as they feel under it. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
justin1985 Posted November 28, 2011 Share Posted November 28, 2011 I would add another voice to the lighting rather than magnification issue - I had been using only the room lighting plus an IKEA halogen desk lamp (that I had always perceived as "bright"), but replacing that with a compact florescent tube light (actually the same size fitting single ended, twin tube, fitting that small aquariums use) made the world of difference - far more than magnification had done. Similarly I had never been able to reliably tell which way the bullhead rail went (the light helped!) until I attended an Easitrac workshop a year or so ago and saw others reliably identifying it. I found filing back freshly cut ends helped make this easier, and as I think someone else said, use a fat permanent marker to colour in the whole top surface of the rail once you have identified it! With soldering, I only became happy with it once I'd spent an afternoon at another workshop (with the Darkest Essex area group) several years ago, and David Eveleigh taught me to use tiny bits of pre-cut solder, picked up and carried on the iron, and plenty of flux applied with a brush beforehand. Totally contrary to the "normal" soldering advice, but it works for me! Justin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 I don't find it necessary to use a magnifier for most 2mm modelling I didn't either, many years ago, but even then when I got the headband magnifier it was a revelation. Yes good lighting is important, but the magnifier certainly helps too when working in the small scales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 2mmMark Posted December 11, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2011 What are people's views on the magnification levels suitable for 2mm? Optivisors have a range of magnifications and focal lengths. I've just ordered an Optivisor with 1.5x magnification at 20" focal length. This might be a little too long for workbench use but seems right for layout work, e.g. track & wiring. I already have some spectacle magnifiers of 1.5x, 2.5x & 3.5x for close up work. Incidentally, seller "giffardt" on ebay seems to have some good deals on Optivisors right now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted December 11, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 11, 2011 I only occasionally use magnification and that is at a very low power. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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