Transpennine Upgrade : Manchester/Leeds

[SHMD]

If a west-bound 802 was diverted, or diagrammed, via Guide Bridge then it just wouldn't switch over from Diesel power.

 

Is it right that 802s can switch power modes, (Diesel to electric OH and back to Diesel again), without stopping?

 

 

Kev.

[4630]

1 hour ago, SHMD said:

Yesterday I heard that in three weeks time Electrification of the Manchester Victoria to Stalybridge section will start in earnest.

Also gleaned, from the same source, was the fact that the Stalybridge to Guide Bridge line was "not being done".

 

I wonder if Miles Platting and Stalybridge junctions will have any OHLE provision for later electrification schemes?

 

 

Kev.

 

Network Rail announced at the end of January that there will be a 16 day closure in August 2021 of the line between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale/Stalybridge.   The press release is here for anyone interested;

 

16 Day closure   

 

The press release makes mention of 'bustitution' for Calder Valley services between Man Vic and Rochdale, with TransPennine Express services using Manchester Piccadilly.  I imagine that there will be a temporary timetable covering the period issued in due course.

 

Further work is also planned over weekends and bank holidays subsequent to the closure, apparently.

 

The press release also says that 'the scope of the Transpennine Route Upgrade plan is being explored by the Department for Transport and Network Rail.'  From that, I would surmise that the work will include some provision for OHL.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that, despite the track layout at Stalybridge Junction and station being significantly altered less than 10 years ago, the layout is no longer optimised for the planned service level.   

Edited February 24, 2021 by 4630

[St. Simon]

1 hour ago, SHMD said:

Is it right that 802s can switch power modes, (Diesel to electric OH and back to Diesel again), without stopping?

 

 

Kev.

Hi Kev,

 

Yes, Class 802s can change between modes at up to 125mph.

 

The only ‘restrictions’ on change over is that the change between diesel and overhead has to be carried in pre-determined “safe pan raising areas”, which may not be at the immediate start of the overhead.

 

Simon

[Edwin_m]

1 hour ago, 4630 said:

 

Network Rail announced at the end of January that there will be a 16 day closure in August 2021 of the line between Manchester Victoria and Rochdale/Stalybridge.   The press release is here for anyone interested;

 

16 Day closure   

 

The press release makes mention of 'bustitution' for Calder Valley services between Man Vic and Rochdale, with TransPennine Express services using Manchester Piccadilly.  I imagine that there will be a temporary timetable covering the period issued in due course.

 

Further work is also planned over weekends and bank holidays subsequent to the closure, apparently.

 

The press release also says that 'the scope of the Transpennine Route Upgrade plan is being explored by the Department for Transport and Network Rail.'  From that, I would surmise that the work will include some provision for OHL.  I seem to recall reading somewhere that, despite the track layout at Stalybridge Junction and station being significantly altered less than 10 years ago, the layout is no longer optimised for the planned service level.   

As I understand from other forums, it the geometry of Stalybridge makes it difficult to have a proper high speed junction.  When the last re-modelling was planned it was still intended to have the main route via Piccadilly but by the time it was laid the decision had been made to re-route them via Victoria.  However IIRC the speeds are only 40mph and 45mph so not much difference currently.  

[SHMD]

10 minutes ago, Edwin_m said:

As I understand from other forums, it the geometry of Stalybridge makes it difficult to have a proper high speed junction.  When the last re-modelling was planned it was still intended to have the main route via Piccadilly but by the time it was laid the decision had been made to re-route them via Victoria.  However IIRC the speeds are only 40mph and 45mph so not much difference currently.  

 

Yes, the lines speeds didn't improve much / if at all, but the new layout allowed for multiple train movements at the same time whilst having the flexibility to hold trains in any one of the through platforms. The line to Guide Bridge was prioritised in the junction design.

 

The increase in Piccadilly trains diagrammed to terminate there, and especially, to pass through platforms 13 and 14 - was a disaster!

It's no wonder they have rethought the junction requirements at Stalybridge.

 

 

Kev.

[SHMD]

Another useful link...

 

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/railway-upgrade-plan/key-projects/transpennine-route-upgrade/manchester-to-stalybridge/

 

Which gives the snippet...

 

 

This would appear to back up what I overheard in the local butty shop!

(Plenty of proviso's though even in just 2 lines!)

 

 

Kev.

[GordonC]

That would seem a bit daft to not wire Stalybridge to Guide Bridge when it can only be a couple of miles between what will be wired and it would give another route into Manchester under the wires the whole way

 

[woodenhead]

45 minutes ago, GordonC said:

That would seem a bit daft to not wire Stalybridge to Guide Bridge when it can only be a couple of miles between what will be wired and it would give another route into Manchester under the wires the whole way

 

The Stalybridge wiring is to allow trains to not have to terminate from Liverpool in Victoria but sit at Stalybridge instead, it's not directly part of wiring between Stalybridge and Leeds which is subject to separate business cases/funding which may or may not then cover the line to Guide Bridge.

[SHMD]

32 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

The Stalybridge wiring is to allow trains to not have to terminate from Liverpool in Victoria but sit at Stalybridge instead, it's not directly part of wiring between Stalybridge and Leeds which is subject to separate business cases/funding which may or may not then cover the line to Guide Bridge.

 

Yes, the Liverpool EMUs need to terminate at Stalybridge because the big reduction in capacity, at Manchester Victoria, when the MEN Arena was plonked on top of it in place of half of it. This needs to be done to free up capacity at Victoria.

 

These Liverpool trains should sit in the bay at Platform 5, Stalybridge, but If they want to sit one in the other bay platform, platform 2, then it would have to cross 3 of the 4 running lines to/from Manchester.

 

I wonder if they are thinking of another Manchester facing bay or putting a through road (back) between platforms 3 and 4?

 

 

Kev.

 

[62613]

5 minutes ago, SHMD said:

 

Yes, the Liverpool EMUs need to terminate at Stalybridge because the big reduction in capacity, at Manchester Victoria, when the MEN Arena was plonked on top of it in place of half of it. This needs to be done to free up capacity at Victoria.

 

These Liverpool trains should sit in the bay at Platform 5, Stalybridge, but If they want to sit one in the other bay platform, platform 2, then it would have to cross 3 of the 4 running lines to/from Manchester.

 

I wonder if they are thinking of another Manchester facing bay or putting a through road (back) between platforms 3 and 4?

 

 

Kev.

Where would an extra Manchester bay go? Might not a turnback siding out at, say Heyrod, where NR seem to have a workbase, be a better idea?

[SHMD]

Heyrod did indeed have two sidings on the Down side. I can't see it happening though.

 

Re-instating the Bay platform at Greenfield would make more sense than stabling at Heyrod.

(..but that would be a longer running time and capacity on the Standedge route is already at a premium.)

 

 

Kev.

 

[woodenhead]

Or there is the rump of the route to Redbank Sidings or even the old coach sidings up the bank at Collyhurst that could be used to hold turnback services.  But they have chosen Stalybridge which requires wiring the whole of the route from Victoria to Stalybridge just to turn an EMU so there must be sufficient local traffic from Stalybridge (and Ashton) to justify electric services.

[SHMD]

Redbanks' a good idea and even Collyhurst but you may as well go the extra mile and plonk them on Newton Heath.

Phillips Park could work too.

 

The Stalybridge commute is very busy into Manchester.

(I seem to recall reading somewhere that Stalybridge was Manchester's 11th busiest station!)

 

It's not just the commute, or the out placing of the Liverpool trains from Victoria, the juice is also required for the 802s. (Well another 7.5 miles less on diesel.)

 

 

Kev.

[woodenhead]

I can see how it fits into the West-East rolling electrification programme which has rather stalled so it makes absolute sense to do all the way to Stalybridge, but a couple of sidings (or even just one) would offer the turnback facility at Victoria and it already exists on the Salford side.

 

Clearly the Government signed it off to Stalybridge, it is a main commuter station which will be enhanced by electric commuter trains, it meant a substation was established as well for the next phase so all useful.

 

 

[Mike Storey]

5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I can see how it fits into the West-East rolling electrification programme which has rather stalled so it makes absolute sense to do all the way to Stalybridge, but a couple of sidings (or even just one) would offer the turnback facility at Victoria and it already exists on the Salford side.

 

Clearly the Government signed it off to Stalybridge, it is a main commuter station which will be enhanced by electric commuter trains, it meant a substation was established as well for the next phase so all useful.

 

 

 

I am not so sure. There appear to have been approvals between Dewsbury/Huddersfield and Leeds already, and some towards York, but the situation around Manchester seems to be in woeful abeyance. The specific, minor extension of OLE towards Stalybridge would not have needed HMG approval, under the approvals threshold regime, provided it did not exceed the current Periodic spending approvals. As spending is so slow currently, on the capital (enhancements) account, I doubt that would have been an issue. 

 

Much of the effort appears to centre around how to avoid the one very obvious solution of quadrupling Oxford Road to Piccadilly, the costs and difficulty of which are making ministers and local worthies sh1t themselves. Much though I admire Grant Shapp's chutzpah, it seems talks about having talks continue ad infinitum. The creation of yet another talking shop, the Northern Transport Acceleration Council, supports that. It has met twice, maybe more, somewhat recently, although no public record exists. How was that needed after the creation of all the other talking shops? Just WTF????

 

https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/northwest/news/2071100-transport-secretary-meets-northern-leaders-to-drive-forward-economic-recovery

[Coach bogie]

On 24/02/2021 at 17:01, woodenhead said:

The Stalybridge wiring is to allow trains to not have to terminate from Liverpool in Victoria but sit at Stalybridge instead, it's not directly part of wiring between Stalybridge and Leeds which is subject to separate business cases/funding which may or may not then cover the line to Guide Bridge.

One bit of irony with the Stalybridge to Guide Bridge section as the overhead masts from the 1500Volt era are still in place. The same on the Guide Bridge to Ashton Moss junction section.  I know they there will be all sorts of technical reasons not to use them, but with the speed restrictions of the curved viaducts of Ashton under Lyne, to a non technical informed outsider, it looks like a missed opportunity.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[jamie92208]

Being designed to hold the much heavier 1500vDC wires they should be usable.  Certainly the ones to Glossop etc are still in use but with new insulators.  The geometry of the position of the masts and wires won't have changed.

 

Jamie

 

[62613]

48 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

Being designed to hold the much heavier 1500vDC wires they should be usable.  Certainly the ones to Glossop etc are still in use but with new insulators.  The geometry of the position of the masts and wires won't have changed.

 

Jamie

 

You'd need new masts to get from where the existing line terminates, near ASDA in Ashton, to Stalybridge; certainly not an insurmountable problem, since it's only mile or so. I can't think of any bridges over that would need altering. Would it also be useful to re-wire round to Guide Bridge East? I think that when Ashton Moss North box was abolished, the junction itself was remodelled.

Edited February 26, 2021 by 62613

[SHMD]

There are lots of mast positions marked out, on the ground, both between Stalybridge to Miles Platting and from Stalybridge to (almost) Guide Bridge station.

 

These were first marked out with spray paint onto the vegetation - it didn't last long.

Then the vegetation was cleared and the spray paint onto the exposed soil - it didn't last long.

Finally, wooden squares were made and placed in position - These have lasted a lot longer but, I fear, even these wont last long enough for the Stalybridge to Guide Bridge section!

 

 

Kev.

Edited February 26, 2021 by SHMD

[Zomboid]

Running electric trains from Stalybridge to Ardwick isn't as simple as just putting the wires up between Stalybridge and Guide Bridge, it would mean substantial changes to the existing ex-DC route and the entire power distribution system around the south of Manchester.

 

There's plenty of juice at Heyrod of course, but the existing OLE isn't necessarily capable of distributing it, and not using Heyrod may well push the existing supplies over the limit. I'm sure it'll happen one day, but what looks on the face of it like a fairly small addition can have far reaching consequences.

[Suzie]

Those redundant DC portals look just like the 1940s Great Eastern ones that are now being replaced due to being end of life. I suspect they will have to go soon whether they get used or not.

[Edwin_m]

Some of the Great Eastern portals were kept, with new small steelwork and wiring.  I think I read somewhere they wouldn't last as long as new ones but it was more cost-effective to keep them and accept the next replacement would be sooner, rather than replacing them now.  

[Zomboid]

24 minutes ago, Suzie said:

Those redundant DC portals look just like the 1940s Great Eastern ones that are now being replaced due to being end of life. I suspect they will have to go soon whether they get used or not.

Its also 40 years since they carried wires. They may well be safe to leave in situ without any load beyond their own weight, but attaching OLE to them is another matter.

[woodenhead]

3 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Its also 40 years since they carried wires. They may well be safe to leave in situ without any load beyond their own weight, but attaching OLE to them is another matter.

I was thinking earlier, the route from Piccadilly to Hadfield has been 25kv much longer now than it was 1500v

[Mike Storey]

On 26/02/2021 at 14:14, Edwin_m said:

Some of the Great Eastern portals were kept, with new small steelwork and wiring.  I think I read somewhere they wouldn't last as long as new ones but it was more cost-effective to keep them and accept the next replacement would be sooner, rather than replacing them now.  

 

The original plan was not to keep any. The 1938-designed GE portals were deployed for a fixed-tension overhead "line", but the new Mark 3a OLE needed longitudinal (and some lateral) variable tensioning, at very great stresses. The pre-existing portals did not prove capable of supporting that without major revision, especially of spacing. I left the project before the bulk of work was complete, and suspect that the use of some existing portals was indeed a stop gap, designed to bring the project in on budget, for now.

 

I am not well informed on the DC portals in the north, but would suspect they would largely need to be located correctly for 25Kv spans.