Transpennine Upgrade : Manchester/Leeds

[Ron Ron Ron]

• 
  

In Yorkshire and the Humber

• Leeds Rail Growth – Two new railway stations: Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge
  
• Electrification of the Transpennine Express
  
• Supertram additional vehicles (Sheffield)
  

 

In the North West

• Electrification of the Transpennine Express
  
• Reinstating Todmorden Curve
  
• Expansion of Mersey Multimodal Gateway
  
• Completion of Western gateway Enabling Scheme at Port Salford
  
• Rochdale Interchange (Tram)
  

 

In the North East

• Electrification of the Transpennine Express
  
• Tyne and Wear Metro
  
• Tees Multimodal Bio-Freight Terminal
  

.

[Edwin_m]

The usual smoke and mirrors apply.

 

Supertram vehicles are probably the tram-trains needed for the pilot scheme. There is a footnote on one of the other documents making this point.

 

Todmorden Curve was announced a couple of weeks ago.

 

Rochdale Interchange is a bus station that happens to be next to the tram station authorised about two years ago.

[Glorious NSE]

But more importantly in the context of this thread it lists TPX electrification as being a benefit in the North East as well, which it would not be if it only did Manchester-Leeds...

 

Edwin, I had a feeling TPx and Northern were being aligned - do you know if there are any others finishing on the same date out of interest?

[Edwin_m]

Don't think there are any others ending on hte same date. Finding the official end dates was surprisingly difficult last time I looked, but I know EMT, Merseyrail and London Midland run on longer so that's most of the obvious candidates ruled out.

 

Metro imples it's going through to York as well, though they don't seem quite sure.

[plarailfan]

It's been confirmed that the line from Leeds through Cross Gates, to the ECML, at Colton junction is to be wired as part of this scheme starting in 2014. On my local BBC1 "Look North" news last night, Alan Whitehouse was going through the details while film footage was shown, of class 319 units, so perhaps these will be drafted in, until some new build arrives ?

[Glorious NSE]

Was also wondering about West Coast and East Coast, as we now have 4x (if I counted that right!) franchises which are a mix of 'regional' and 'intercity'. (FGW, EMT, AXC, Anglia)

[DerekEm8]

With all these electrification ,TPX re-routing,Todmorden curve re-instatement etc proposals it does pose the question of capacity at Manchester Victoria (even with the possible use of the extra platforms at Exchange) and even Oxford road and Piccadilly platforms 13/14. I remember the serious doubts expressed when it was originally proposed to divert all the Trans-Pennines and through services via Piccadilly and 'rebuild' Victoria into the overcrowded/under-platformed concrete cave that it is now

[Andy C]

Whilst the decision is to be applauded the cynic in me cant help feeling a tad suspicious about this. For a start funding is mainly dependant on getting pensions schemes to invest in Infrastructure rather than the quicker and often more lucrative wins of the bond market. Now would someone who has a stake in a private pension be happy about that? worth thinking about, they haven't invested in this sector before, why would they now?

 

its a bit like PAC announced this morning re the new aircraft carriers, 2020? - 2030 more realistic.

 

Funnily enough Vulcan and myself were discussing the merits of juicing up the Calder Valley on Saturday on our way over to Wakefield on Saturday - would they bother with the section from Milner Royd junction - Halifax - Bradford?or just do the section via Elland and Briggus? And while we were at it how about pushing through the stops at Bradford Exchange and on through the void that currently exists between there and Foster square?

 

Too many questions, many possibilities, no money!

 

(Edit - PAC = Public Accounts Committee)

Edited November 29, 2011 by Andy C

[Edwin_m]

Indeed there is a potential capacity crunch at Victoria. Todmoden Curve doesn't affect Victoria, as it simply extends the Rochdale terminator to Burnley and Blackburn. However there will be more trains terminating from the west, hence the need for extra bay platforms, plus Transpennines running through. The Stalybridge bay (approved and probably by now under construction) allows some trains from the west to be extended there instead of blocking platforms at Victoria.

 

The government is still thinking about the rest of the Northern Hub schemes, notably a new viaduct south of Piccadilly to provide two extra through platforms. Among other things this allows Calder Valley trains to run through to the airport, further reducing congestion at Victoria.

[Edwin_m]

Can't see them electryfiying Calder Valley unless they go via Bradford, as two of the three through trains take this route and Halifax and Bradford are the most important places it serves. If the main service went via Brighouse, it would still not be competitive with the Standedge route for journeys between Manchester and Leeds. Having done both routes it makes sense to electrify through Brighouse and the connecting curves, which should be easier infrastructure-wise and allow conversion of a range of local services and diversions which by then would be otherwise fully under the wires.

 

Electrifying via Bradford adds more tunnels though.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Edwin_m

[62613]

IThe Stalybridge bay (approved and probably by now under construction)

 

Not started yet! I first heard this about 3 years ago from one of the staff at S/B. New bay on the fire station side, so that Victoria trains don't have to cross the entire layout; converting one of the goods loops for passengers; and reinstating one of the through lines between the main platforms. Wouldn't it make more sense to electrify into Stalybridge from the Guide Bridge direction first, as the masts are intact to within a mileor so of the station. Also will Guide bridge-Stockport and Denton Junction - Ashton Moss North be electrified? Daft if they aren't!

Edited November 29, 2011 by 62613

[johnd]

 

Not started yet! I first heard this about 3 years ago from one of the staff at S/B. New bay on the fire station side, so that Victoria trains don't have to cross the entire layout; converting one of the goods loops for passengers; and reinstating one of the through lines between the main platforms. Wouldn't it make more sense to electrify into Stalybridge from the Guide Bridge direction first, as the masts are intact to within a mileor so of the station. Also will Guide bridge-Stockport and Denton Junction - Ashton Moss North be electrified? Daft if they aren't!

 

What just for the weekly parlimentary train, seriously it would make sense if only for ecs workings.

[JeffP]

Does anyone know if the electrification will extend Eastwards to Hull? It WAS the traditional start of the trans-Pennine trains, and must be one of the largest cities in the UK without a decent train service......

[Coach bogie]

Indeed there is a potential capacity crunch at Victoria.

 

I understand that when the Ordsall curve is put in trains form the NE direction will no longer terminate but continue to Manchester Airport. Reduced stoppage time at Vic is intended to increase platform capacity in theory.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[mark axlecounter]

when they do sort out the blackpool line they first have to put colour lights in because at the mo they have semaphore signals .

[Edwin_m]

I understand that when the Ordsall curve is put in trains form the NE direction will no longer terminate but continue to Manchester Airport. Reduced stoppage time at Vic is intended to increase platform capacity in theory.

 

Yes indeed, but as I pointed out further back they won't all be able to do that until capacity is increased at Piccadilly.

 

Does anyone know if the electrification will extend Eastwards to Hull? It WAS the traditional start of the trans-Pennine trains, and must be one of the largest cities in the UK without a decent train service......

 

It's not clear at the moment whether it will go east of Leeds to either York or Hull.

[plarailfan]

Does anyone know if the electrification will extend Eastwards to Hull? It WAS the traditional start of the trans-Pennine trains, and must be one of the largest cities in the UK without a decent train service......

Hull is a well used station, that hasn't been mentioned in these plans I'm afraid. The proposals already put forward in the last few days are fantastic news. Even though we are currently in a recession, many services on the Leeds - Manchester route, are already full and standing with commuters and off - peak, leisure / shopping journeys. At one of my local stations - Dewsbury, when a fast train departs, passengers immediately start arriving for the next one, which is 30 mins later, so hopefully, the swift acceleration of EMUs will allow a more frequent service for these customers, without disrupting the, currently, very intensive timetable. (Although the 185's are very quick off the mark)

Edited November 29, 2011 by plarailfan

[paulbb]

Although it is excellent news, and the UK rail network -at last- seems to getting a rolling pramme of electrification, there will remain the operational problems of serving the 'branches' ie Hull, Scarborough, and maybe Lincoln too. On the West coast there remains Holyhead and Windermere as 'diesel islands'.

Now the PM is a fellow spotter, according to the Press, maybe there will be plan C which will address this problem. Oh yes , can we have some trains too- maybe from Hitachi 395's?

[DerekEm8]

Although it is excellent news, and the UK rail network -at last- seems to getting a rolling pramme of electrification, there will remain the operational problems of serving the 'branches' ie Hull, Scarborough, and maybe Lincoln too. On the West coast there remains Holyhead and Windermere as 'diesel islands'.

 

Also Carnfort-Barrow and the Cumbrian Coast..

[mark axlecounter]

there is bad news for the signallers too. network rail want to shut all boxes and put up 12 new rocs by 2024

[jamie92208]

I notice too that Sheffield is not mentioned......are we doomed to be the last bastion of diesel only trains then ?

My suspicions that another announcement about Midland main Line electrification and a purcahse of pantograph cars for voyagers will appear in the near future. The cost/benefit ratio for the MML is apparently far better than for GW.

 

Jamie

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I notice too that Sheffield is not mentioned......are we doomed to be the last bastion of diesel only trains then ?

 

There is, of course, a superbly engineered modern trans-pennine tunnel situated between Sheffield and Manchester that isn't doing a lot at the moment, railway-wise.

[Edwin_m]

Quite possible Jamie. I suspect the reason MML electrification hasn't happened yet is that it doesn't help the rolling stock cascade.

 

The NW electrifications and GW as far as Oxford/Newbury can all be resourced by EMUs displaced by Thameslink but still with reasonable life left, plus (if it still happens) a few new build for Manchester to Scotland. Transpennine soaks up a few more displaced EMUs for the locals but probably needs new build for the longer-distance services. I'd hazard a personal guess that displaced 315s will go Cardiff Valleys in about 2018.

 

All of these schemes displace DMUs which can be transferred elsewhere to meet growing demand and perhaps push the Pacers out. The policy appears to be to carry on doing this for a while to avoid building any new DMUs. The ROSCOs won't buy new DMUs, partly because they are worried about having them on their hands if they are displaced by electrification. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy really.

 

On the other hand MML doesn't displace a single DMU - every local service in the East Midlands runs at least partly on a line that wouldn't be part of the scheme. Instead it requires some medium-distance electric stock and displaces HSTs and fairly new Meridians for which there isn't an obvious use anywhere else. The pantograph car may break this logjam by ensuring that the Meridians can be re-used on the same route instead of being displaced elsewhere.

 

It also opens up scope for electrification to become a progressive process rather than a "big bang", rather like the possible conversion of the third rail we were discussing a couple of weeks back. As well as adding capacity the pantograph cars would immediately allow electric running south of Bedford - 50 miles on every Meridian journey is getting on 40% of total fleet mileage. They might then leave Leicester until the signalling is life-expired (it isn't AC immune) and go straight to Derby-Chesterfield area where new immune signalling is going in within a few years. A final phase would take in Leicester and Nottingham.

 

You can also imagine the same thing happening with Voyagers on both CrossCountry and the Holyhead route. In view of the potential benefit I wouldn't be at all surprised if a proof of concept pantograph car was produced for intensive trials quite soon.

[Fay Singpoint]

 

Not started yet! I first heard this about 3 years ago from one of the staff at S/B. New bay on the fire station side, so that Victoria trains don't have to cross the entire layout; converting one of the goods loops for passengers; and reinstating one of the through lines between the main platforms.

 

Site work starts big time from 1st April 2012 (no joke) when both the goods lines and the existing bay platform are signed out of use to allow construction work to start. At the end of Oct 2012, Stalybridge Signal Box will close and we end up with a station that has 2 west facing bay platforms and 3 through platforms, 1 of which is bi-directional for through traffic.

 

F

[roythebus]

Andy C says " Whilst the decision is to be applauded the cynic in me cant help feeling a tad suspicious about this. For a start funding is mainly dependant on getting pensions schemes to invest in Infrastructure rather than the quicker and often more lucrative wins of the bond market. Now would someone who has a stake in a private pension be happy about that? worth thinking about, they haven't invested in this sector before, why would they now?"

 

ISTR a big Canadian pension company buying HS1 recently. No-one said anything about the investment being limited to UK pension companies! In my view, UK railways and probably most railways are a big market for growth and will probably provide a good return on investment over a period of time.