Midland Main Line Electrification

[jamie92208]

Much mention of Midland Main Line Electrification in Shapps' statement yesterday, however as always the devil will be in the detail.  Market Harborough is obviously going ahead.  At some point they are going to have to wire the East Midlands Parkway area and apparently the lines north from there, probably all three routes to serve Nottingham, Derby and Sheffield.  No firm commitment to the Sheffield to Moorthorpe gap and obviously the Market Harborough to East Midlands Parkway.   Once again the MML will have to wait and see.

 

Jamie

[ess1uk]

time to dust off the original plans

another round of consultation anyone?

[lmsforever]

Once again a government minister has had a brain wave, you wonder how anything happens  in the UK.  The wires have  staggered northwards in a completely haphazard way. Eventualy we will have a true network of electrified  lines that will benefit passengers.It is a great shame that we have rely on these people who wish to run the country for who,s benifit I am not sure.Transport is the basic item that everything else comes from yet it is sidelined ,subjected to endless discussion and in the end forgotten. I do not know the answer to the current situation and I am certain the nthn Powerhouse has long forgotten what it realy was set up for ,getting people moved quickly and in numbers.Lord help us protect us from poaticians.

[woodenhead]

I think the politicians have their eye on the next election, at the moment HS2a is a pile of worksites, there will be nothing to show for HS2b in any form until way beyond the next election.

 

However, start to string up the MML, the line from Leeds to Bradford, Stalybridge to Leeds and voters can see changes which the politicians can use in their polling.  I also wonder if whether progress on a better Manchester to Standedge route can begin earlier - the Liverpool-Warrington-HS2 cannot happen until HS2b is being delivered, but they can work east of Manchester as it is not so HS2 dependent being a NPR thing not HS2.

[lmsforever]

I totaly agree with you .

[eastwestdivide]

10 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

However, start to string up the MML, the line from Leeds to Bradford, Stalybridge to Leeds and voters can see changes which the politicians can use in their polling.

Trouble is, the Integrated Rail Plan (IRP) timescales show electrification projects as follows:

MML Market Harborough-Sheffield electrification running from about 2026-27 until about 2031-32,

and

TP Manchester-Stalybridge about 2025-26, Huddersfield-Leeds 2028-2030 and Leeds-York 2030-33 ish.

So no immediate progress visible for the next few years anyway.

That's all according my reading of Figure 9 in the PDF of the IRP at: 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034576/integrated-rail-plan-for-the-north-and-midlands-web-version.pdf

 

That figure 9 is hard to place the start and end dates versus the scale of years at the top.

[woodenhead]

But it still resonates better with the people of Nottingham, Derby, towns in Yorkshire who will see lovely pictures of OHLE in the marketing they get at the next election.

 

However, it also further concretes the UK committment to eradicating carbon which of course whatever your politics is a good thing, I don't think a Parkway station in the middle of Toton would show the same committment because it was too 'car' focussed by it's very name when travel and public transport needs to be focussing more and more on not using cars.

 

I accept there is a lot of politics involved in the decision to shift away from the HS2b from the Midlands to Leeds, just like it remaining in the manifesto so long was also politics because it's been clear from the beginning the route chosen missing out Derby and Nottingham was a fudge.  Personally, I am in favour of the new proposals, they feel more in touch with what people may want and recognise as transport development.  HS2 has become a bit of target because it was sold the wrong way in the beginning, speed should never have been the main focus and perhaps people may have listened to the arguments for it more if it had been about capacity.

[eastwestdivide]

Yes, it's just a pity that it'll be another 4 years before there's any tangible progress on two projects (MML, TP) which were 'paused' a few years ago.

As a package of projects, it's not all bad, just X years late.

[96701]

10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

they feel more in touch with what people may want and recognise as transport development.  

Unless you happen to live in Bradford, Leeds and environs.

[Dava]

10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

But it still resonates better with the people of Nottingham, Derby, towns in Yorkshire who will see lovely pictures of OHLE in the marketing they get at the next election.

 

However, it also further concretes the UK committment to eradicating carbon which of course whatever your politics is a good thing, I don't think a Parkway station in the middle of Toton would show the same committment because it was too 'car' focussed by it's very name when travel and public transport needs to be focussing more and more on not using cars.

 

I accept there is a lot of politics involved in the decision to shift away from the HS2b from the Midlands to Leeds, just like it remaining in the manifesto so long was also politics because it's been clear from the beginning the route chosen missing out Derby and Nottingham was a fudge.  Personally, I am in favour of the new proposals, they feel more in touch with what people may want and recognise as transport development.  HS2 has become a bit of target because it was sold the wrong way in the beginning, speed should never have been the main focus and perhaps people may have listened to the arguments for it more if it had been about capacity.

East Midlands Parkway is in the middle of nowhere and the only means of access is by car. It will change with the Ratcliffe power station site to be redeveloped next door, but it will be the 21 century version of Trent Junction. At least Long Eaton looks to be spared the appalling viaduct over it. 
 

Dava

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, 96701 said:

Unless you happen to live in Bradford, Leeds and environs.

Leeds has been promised a shimmery new tramway system and still stands to gain from reduced journey times thanks to improvements west of Huddersfield, not to mention electrification.

 

The big loser so to speak is Bradford but the topology of the area means the only way it would have seen radical improvement is the original HS3 concept with a totally new route from Liverpool to Leeds.

 

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, Dava said:

East Midlands Parkway is in the middle of nowhere and the only means of access is by car. It will change with the Ratcliffe power station site to be redeveloped next door, but it will be the 21 century version of Trent Junction. At least Long Eaton looks to be spared the appalling viaduct over it. 
 

Dava

This is true - BUT unlike Toton it has regular services to Nottingham and Derby plus opportunities for folk to double back towards Leicester.

 

As the government have said, to provide the same level of rail connectivity at Toton would increase journey times and mess up current service patterns as all passenger operations avoid the site of the proposed station.

[96701]

30 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Leeds has been promised a shimmery new tramway system and still stands to gain from reduced journey times thanks to improvements west of Huddersfield, not to mention electrification.

 

The big loser so to speak is Bradford but the topology of the area means the only way it would have seen radical improvement is the original HS3 concept with a totally new route from Liverpool to Leeds.

 

Improvements west of Huddersfield are going to be extremely disruptive, the new line that was promised would not have done. My guess is that no work at all will start on that upgrade until after the next general election. Don't forget that the "radical improvement" that you mention was promised. The IRP gives nothing to Bradford to improve inter connectivity which Crossrail will do.

[Hobby]

8 hours ago, 96701 said:

Unless you happen to live in Bradford, Leeds and environs.

 

How many people actually travel to London and actually need to save themselves a few minutes, though? I suspect it will make very little difference to the majority.

 

Then there's travelling time to the HS station which we discussed many moons ago, for many people in Birmingham and surrounds it'd still be quicker to catch either Avanti or Chiltern rather than spend time getting from where they live to the HS station so a saving of 20 minutes is easily eaten up by the extra time spent getting to the HS station. Perhaps with Bradford that may not be the case  but then I'd refer you to my first para.

 

I agree with many of the others who feel that improvements to the existing network in the area which would benefit far more people is more important than pandering for those few (in comparison) who need to go to London. Especially when such improvements will also benefit journey times.

[Hairy Bear Digital]

Further progress. .

A good 15+ piles gone in on the down line south of Braybrooke towards the A6 bridge.

Nearby compound ramping up its stockpile. 

[Zomboid]

19 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

How many people actually travel to London and actually need to save themselves a few minutes, though? I suspect it will make very little difference to the majority.

 

Then there's travelling time to the HS station which we discussed many moons ago, for many people in Birmingham and surrounds it'd still be quicker to catch either Avanti or Chiltern rather than spend time getting from where they live to the HS station so a saving of 20 minutes is easily eaten up by the extra time spent getting to the HS station. Perhaps with Bradford that may not be the case  but then I'd refer you to my first para.

 

I agree with many of the others who feel that improvements to the existing network in the area which would benefit far more people is more important than pandering for those few (in comparison) who need to go to London. Especially when such improvements will also benefit journey times.

It's never been about pandering to those going to London though. The current HS2 scheme is an extra pair of tracks on the WCML, which creates lots of extra capacity on the existing lines by getting the people traveling between the big cities out of the way of those who aren't.

 

There's a time spent traveling to New Street/ Euston for the existing routes in any case. That's just a fact of train travel, you have to get to the station wherever it is.

[ess1uk]

47 minutes ago, Hairy Bear Digital said:

Further progress. .

A good 15+ piles gone in on the down line south of Braybrooke towards the A6 bridge.

Nearby compound ramping up its stockpile. 

That’s good news 

[Titan]

20 hours ago, woodenhead said:

However, it also further concretes the UK committment to eradicating carbon which of course whatever your politics is a good thing, I don't think a Parkway station in the middle of Toton would show the same committment because it was too 'car' focussed by it's very name when travel and public transport needs to be focussing more and more on not using cars.

 

I think that this view is rapidly becoming out of date with 25% of all new cars being electric only, and over 50% of all new cars having some electric capability, and that percentage of market share increasing very steeply year on year so by the time the Parkway would have been open a very high percentage of vehicles using it would be all electric anyway. And when you look at the total life expectancy of HS2, IC engined cars would only ever be using it for a tiny fraction of it at the beginning, so cars will cease to be the environmental menace they once were, particularly as the amount of electricity generated by sustainables keeps increasing. Instead of IC car v IC train it will be electric car v electric train.  I hope they planned to fit plenty of chargers!

Edited November 20, 2021 by Titan

[Edwin_m]

7 hours ago, 96701 said:

Improvements west of Huddersfield are going to be extremely disruptive, the new line that was promised would not have done. My guess is that no work at all will start on that upgrade until after the next general election. Don't forget that the "radical improvement" that you mention was promised. The IRP gives nothing to Bradford to improve inter connectivity which Crossrail will do.

Not too bad I'd say.  The stuff east of Huddersfield is being done anyway, and from there up to Marsden was a four-track formation so there's a bit of scope to move things around.  Clearly a new junction needed somewhere near its western end, and maybe some extra track to allow overtaking of stoppers.  But the new services probably wouldn't travel through Marsden itself (I'd put the junction east of the tight curves there) and there's currently only one other station, so it may be possible to run the service without overtaking using EMUs on the stoppers and maybe having a slightly irregular interval for the 8TPH through services to create some longer gaps for them.  

58 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

How many people actually travel to London and actually need to save themselves a few minutes, though? I suspect it will make very little difference to the majority.

 

Then there's travelling time to the HS station which we discussed many moons ago, for many people in Birmingham and surrounds it'd still be quicker to catch either Avanti or Chiltern rather than spend time getting from where they live to the HS station so a saving of 20 minutes is easily eaten up by the extra time spent getting to the HS station. Perhaps with Bradford that may not be the case  but then I'd refer you to my first para.

 

I agree with many of the others who feel that improvements to the existing network in the area which would benefit far more people is more important than pandering for those few (in comparison) who need to go to London. Especially when such improvements will also benefit journey times.

In the case of Birmingham the Interchange station serves similar catchment to the intermediate stops of Avanti and Chiltern, and will be much easier to get to for those that have to drive.  

 

Bradford has always been disadvantaged by its geography, off most main lines of communication and surrounded by hills on all sides bar the north.  The report makes some good points (possibly for the wrong reasons) about putting stations in city centres rather than at their edges, and it would be extremely difficult to do that for a through Manchester-Leeds high speed line in Bradford due to the gradients and the need to turn the route by nearly 90 degrees somewhere in that area.  

[Edwin_m]

3 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

I think that this view is rapidly becoming out of date with 25% of all new cars being electric only, and over 50% of all new cars having some electric capability, and that percentage of market share increasing very steeply year on year so by the time the Parkway would have been open a very high percentage of vehicles using it would be all electric anyway. And when you look at the total life expectancy of HS2, IC engined cars would only ever be using it for a tiny fraction of it at the beginning, so cars will cease to be the environmental menace they once were, particularly as the amount of electricity generated by renewables keeps increasing. Instead of IC car v IC train it will be electric car v electric train.  I hope they planned to fit plenty of chargers!

Electric doesn't solve the problems caused by over-use of the car.  We will still have congestion and there are real question marks over the batteries needing rare materials and having their own significant carbon footprint.  A transport network relying on electric cars will also use much more energy than one that retains substantial public transport, and even if that energy is renewable it still increases the need for generation which has its own embodied carbon and other environmental downsides.  

 

A Parkway station may be fine for car-owning locals travelling out, but it's less good for visitors being dropped at a "Ryanair station" some way from where they actually want to be.  So it could be seen as taking prosperity away from the area rather than bringing it in.  

 

City centre stations are usually much more accessible using the city's existing public transport network as well as by active travel.  Nottingham and Derby stations are actually easier to drive to than most central stations, because they are at the edge of the centres with good road access to the "back entrance".  Downside is that they aren't quite as accessible to radial bus routes as they might be.  

[Titan]

I pretty much agree, the points above are valid,  I was trying to point out that the IC car v electric train comparison is out of date for any future rail project, we need to look at electric car v electric train, which whilst it will still favour the railway, it will not do so by by as big a margin as IC car v electric train,  which will mean the advantage electric trains have had over cars on environmental grounds up until now will be diminished.

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Titan said:

 

I think that this view is rapidly becoming out of date with 25% of all new cars being electric only, and over 50% of all new cars having some electric capability, and that percentage of market share increasing very steeply year on year so by the time the Parkway would have been open a very high percentage of vehicles using it would be all electric anyway. And when you look at the total life expectancy of HS2, IC engined cars would only ever be using it for a tiny fraction of it at the beginning, so cars will cease to be the environmental menace they once were, particularly as the amount of electricity generated by sustainables keeps increasing. Instead of IC car v IC train it will be electric car v electric train.  I hope they planned to fit plenty of chargers!

That assumes we will still all be able to afford cars as we do now.  I know that with mass production the price of electric cars should come down to the same level as ICE cars, but with the current increases in second hand prices and the price increases that will afflict ICE cars as the economics of production increases my fear is that electric car pricess will stay where they are and the other cars will rise to meet them.

[Titan]

19 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

That assumes we will still all be able to afford cars as we do now.  I know that with mass production the price of electric cars should come down to the same level as ICE cars, but with the current increases in second hand prices and the price increases that will afflict ICE cars as the economics of production increases my fear is that electric car pricess will stay where they are and the other cars will rise to meet them.

 

It does not assume anything, it could equally go the other way - if autonomous electric car sharing becomes a thing, then electric car use could be significantly cheaper and more environmentally friendly and convenient than it is now, further reducing the advantage of rail.  Mass electric car use is evidently on the way, so that is not an assumption, and is something railways will have to accommodate in whatever form it takes, whether or not car use increases/decreases/stays the same in future.

Edited November 20, 2021 by Titan

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Titan said:

 

It does not assume anything, it could equally go the other way - if autonomous electric car sharing becomes a thing, then electric car use could be significantly cheaper and more environmentally friendly than it is now, further reducing the advantage of rail.  Mass electric car use is evidently on the way, so that is not an assumption, and is something railways will have to accommodate in whatever form it takes, whether or not car use increases/decreases/stays the same in future.

Maybe, but I am of the mindset that things are only going to get sh*ttier for the masses from here on in.

[KingEdwardII]

58 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

things are only going to get sh*ttier for the masses

Well, things generally are going to get a *lot* more expensive with the current set of policies. I wonder how far ordinary folk can get pushed down this road before they react - no-one likes getting poorer. The current steep rises in energy prices are only the start.

 

Yours, Mike.