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Midland Main Line Electrification

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50 minutes ago, geoff said:

As far as I am aware both Kettering and Wellingborough stations are listed and the canopies are included in the listing

Kettering listing here:

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1372596

Wellingborough:

https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1191880

 

both entries mention the canopies et al.

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I think the problem here is that the canopies project over the platform edge and would either directly foul, or infringe the electrical clearances from, the pantograph of a passing train.  Clearly if the pantograph struck the canopy there would be a major operational incident with the risk of people being injured by falling debris.  But assuming the canopy is earthed as required by standards for electrified lines, an electrical arc from a pantograph would immediately trip out the circuit breakers and is more of an operational nuisance than a significant safety incident.  

 

One of the newish gantries just north of Kettering appears to have one leg landing right down near the bottom of the embankment.  

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Interesting then that the Midland Railway Trust has apparently been offered some brackets from Kettering station by NR.

Jonathan

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IIRC the brackets were removed to use as templates for making shorter, but identical as possible brackets to replace them with. I guess it would be the original brackets that have been offered to the MRT once they have been removed.

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8 hours ago, Titan said:

IIRC the brackets were removed to use as templates for making shorter, but identical as possible brackets to replace them with. I guess it would be the original brackets that have been offered to the MRT once they have been removed.

Pretty sure that's right about the shorter brackets.  Hopefully it won't result in a nasty truncation like the one at Loughborough and they might even consider putting the original glazing back instead of the corrugated (and possibly asbestos-containing) roofing that's visible on the photos.  

 

The donation to the MRT sounds plausible too.  I noticed a few years ago they had what looked very much like the supporting columns that were removed from the St Pancras undercroft to create the shopping mall, and the brackets would be far more useful than those as there are several platforms where a Midland-style canopy would look the part.  

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Looks like EMR will be getting 9 x LNER IC125 sets to replace its own for a year until Dec 2020, but the Hitachi bi-modes are due to come in a year after that from Dec2021 [if approved in time which did not happen on GWR or LNER]. So still a 12 month+ gap unless the lease is extended. The Meridians will be really filthy by then.

 

Dava

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"By the end of 2020, all EMR Intercity services will be delivered by Class 222 and Class 180 trains. These trains meet the PRM-TSI (persons with reduced mobility) compliance and are significantly more modern than the HSTs which will be removed from our franchise. 

 

By December 2022, an overall investment of more than £400 million will replace or refurbish all trains on the network, including the introduction of the brand new bi-mode units on EMR Intercity routes."

 


Seems they're banking on the 180s taking over the HSTs, the 360s releasing a few Meridians to bolster the fleet further, meaning all HSTs will be out by 2020.

 

Put that together with the small fleet of 156s from Scotrail replacing the 153s, which will eventually be replaced by 170s... lots of temporary trains indeed!

 

Will make for a lot of interesting photos as none of them will have EMT or EMR liveries!

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8 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:


Seems they're banking on the 180s taking over the HSTs, the 360s releasing a few Meridians to bolster the fleet further, meaning all HSTs will be out by 2020.

In 2018 the timetable was re-cast requiring about two more trains in service (the ex-GC HSTs, not counting the third one which is a spare).  This was apparently to accommodate Thameslink but it was also said that if Corby electrification had been complete then those changes wouldn't have been necessary.  I wonder if that means that the service can revert to approximately the pre-2018 timings when Corby is done, thereby reducing the sets in service by 2.  By taking the Kettering/Wellingborough passengers the electrics may also reduce the need for diesel peak extras, which currently use several HSTs that sit in Cricklewood during the day.  Even with these I suspect we'll see some formations shortening in 2020, probably a harbinger of the long-term situation (although a 5-car bi-mode should have more seats than a 5-car 222).  

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3 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:


Seems they're banking on the 180s taking over the HSTs, the 360s releasing a few Meridians to bolster the fleet further, meaning all HSTs will be out by 2020.

 

Put that together with the small fleet of 156s from Scotrail replacing the 153s, which will eventually be replaced by 170s... lots of temporary trains indeed!

 

Will make for a lot of interesting photos as none of them will have EMT or EMR liveries!

That is also an awful lot of crew training!

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On 08/11/2019 at 12:41, Sir TophamHatt said:

Seems they're banking on the 180s taking over the HSTs,

 

So this is the bright future for the East Midlands?  Combined population of over 4.5 million and instead of electrification, we get twenty year old third hand diesel multiple units... pah!

 

I'd rather they would lease a bunch of 68s, refurb the HST trailers, fit buffers, and then thrash 10 car sets up and down the MML at 30 minute intervals.  I might want to actually travel by train then.

 

Bl00dy MML, really is a p1ss poor excuse for a main line these days.

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Very depressing news if EMR are to get 180s to replace HSTs. 180s are nearly 20 years old, unreliable, do not offer the capacity required for MML top line services and are cast offs from GWR and other operators. 

 

Realisitcally, if HS2 2b [whatever happened to that?] is eventually cancelled, we must have full MML electrification to Sheffield & Nottingham, capacity & station upgrades & all new trains.

 

Dava

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9 hours ago, Dava said:

Very depressing news if EMR are to get 180s to replace HSTs. 180s are nearly 20 years old, unreliable, do not offer the capacity required for MML top line services and are cast offs from GWR and other operators. 

 

Realisitcally, if HS2 2b [whatever happened to that?] is eventually cancelled, we must have full MML electrification to Sheffield & Nottingham, capacity & station upgrades & all new trains.

 

Dava

 

The reports were that EMR would be getting the 180s currently used by Hull Trains (4 units I believe) as an interim measure until the IETs turned up.  I don't keep up with the minutiae of EM(T)R rolling stock but they certainly have more than 4 HSTs so to say that the 180s are replacing HSTs is simply not true.  Replacing some HSTs yes, all no and probably just the relatively recently acquired ex-GC HSTs.  I doubt the rest will be going anywhere until the 360s or IETs show up (whichever happens first).  The 360s being contingent on the arrival of replacements on GA and whatever refurbishment, crew training etc is required.  That is some way off I would suggest.

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According to the head honcho of East Midlands Railway, who was answering questions at the recent AGM of Bedford Commuters Association, the 360s are scheduled to enter service between St Pancras and Corby in December 2020.  There will be 21 sets operating mostly in 12 car formations.   This will permit the massacre of the Midland main line timetable involving the removal of all stops south of Kettering from trains to and from Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield and Leeds.   Those poor souls who live in, for example, Bedford and wish to visit, for example, Derby will have to change twice.  This sounds to me like an incentive to make the journey by road.  If EMR are aiming to take traffic off the M1 they seem to be going about it in an interesting way.

 

Chris

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11 hours ago, Dava said:

 

 

Realisitcally, if HS2 2b [whatever happened to that?] is eventually cancelled, we must have full MML electrification to Sheffield & Nottingham, capacity & station upgrades & all new trains.

 

Dava

 

Looks like HS2 will go ahead, in all phases, if the govt takes heed of the independent report recommendations, which seem to have been leaked this morning.

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5 hours ago, chrisf said:

According to the head honcho of East Midlands Railway, who was answering questions at the recent AGM of Bedford Commuters Association, the 360s are scheduled to enter service between St Pancras and Corby in December 2020.  There will be 21 sets operating mostly in 12 car formations.   This will permit the massacre of the Midland main line timetable involving the removal of all stops south of Kettering from trains to and from Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield and Leeds.   Those poor souls who live in, for example, Bedford and wish to visit, for example, Derby will have to change twice.  This sounds to me like an incentive to make the journey by road.  If EMR are aiming to take traffic off the M1 they seem to be going about it in an interesting way.

The plain fact is that there are far more people travelling between the East Midlands and London than between Bedford and anywhere north of Kettering.  Transferring those stops to the electrics allows some acceleration of the London services and avoids the current situation where the semi-fasts are overcrowded between Bedford and London and partly empty further north.  This in turn probably reduces the number of expensive bi-modes needed to run the service (whereas cheaper EMUs could have been used if the electrification hadn't been "graylinged").  

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On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 08:25, DY444 said:

 

Replacing some HSTs yes, all no and probably just the relatively recently acquired ex-GC HSTs.

 

Correct.

 

GC HSTs:

The GC HSTs are apparently non-standard so the plan is to replace them first.

 

180s:

Not sure what Hull Trains are using now (HSTs, still?), but I read the 180s released from Hull Trains will have 6 months before passenger operation.  Whether that is just a messing about with the math, I don't know (I can't see the trains having a 6 month overhaul!) - might mean receiving the first 180, then 6 months later, the last is rolling into passenger operation.  I highly doubt they'll be in EMR purple.  They will replace the GC HSTs.

 

360s:

12 car operation where possible.
They should be refurbished to an IC standard, but I don't know what that means anymore.

 

East Coast HSTs:
Will cover as they're slightly more PRM compliant than the current HSTs.  Current sets will be returned to their leasing companies.

 

With a bit of timetable tweaking, and effectively binning services south of Kettering to the 360s, it means there will be less stock required.

 

 

Local Lines (Sprinter) Replacement:
156s from Scotrail and (6 from) Greater Anglia will replace all 153 operation by December 2019.
These will then be replaced by 170s - some from Scotrail.
I would have thought Greater Anglia would have transferred theirs over too, but seems like Transport for Wales bagged them ages ago.
Northern haven't been interested or were too busy with their 195 introduction to worry about more 170s.

 

A source for 170s?
I've read elsewhere on the internet that Southern will return their 171s, which will be released for EMR.  The 4-car trains will have one coach removed and inserted into 2-car sets to form a large pool of 3-car 170s.  Goodness knows what Southern plan to use to replace their 171s and haven't seen anything official about this.

 

I thought CrossCountry would be interested in the 175s to use on their Stansted Airport route, ensuring that all services are 3-car (plus, the more intercity door arrangement, bigger luggage space - all positives).  While reliability is low, the main factor is that CrossCountry aren't interested in changing anything because of the status of their franchise.
This would have released yet more 170s for EMR.  Not sure under the current plan, if there are enough 170s to replace the entire Sprinter fleet (yes, even the 158s will be going!).

 

 

 

The plan is by the end of 2022 the EMR Franchise will have IETs (different to the rest of the IETs - shorter, different noses), 360s and 170s - three types of stock only.

 

Some of this may happen, some may not but this is the latest I have read.  However, my hat is at the ready for eating!

 

Also realised this is wildly off the MML electrification topic :/  Sorry :(

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On 12/11/2019 at 08:41, chrisf said:

According to the head honcho of East Midlands Railway, who was answering questions at the recent AGM of Bedford Commuters Association, the 360s are scheduled to enter service between St Pancras and Corby in December 2020.  There will be 21 sets operating mostly in 12 car formations.   This will permit the massacre of the Midland main line timetable involving the removal of all stops south of Kettering from trains to and from Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield and Leeds.   Those poor souls who live in, for example, Bedford and wish to visit, for example, Derby will have to change twice.  This sounds to me like an incentive to make the journey by road.  If EMR are aiming to take traffic off the M1 they seem to be going about it in an interesting way.

 

Chris

 

But that situation will be no different from the ECML, where the Intercity services no longer stop at the mid-sized market towns between Stevenage and Peterborough (Hitchin, Huntingdon etc) which are served by the Kings X - Peterborough EMUs.  What's happening on the MML is going to bring it in to line with the other main lines. 

 

 

 

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On 12/11/2019 at 08:41, chrisf said:

According to the head honcho of East Midlands Railway, who was answering questions at the recent AGM of Bedford Commuters Association, the 360s are scheduled to enter service between St Pancras and Corby in December 2020.  There will be 21 sets operating mostly in 12 car formations.   This will permit the massacre of the Midland main line timetable involving the removal of all stops south of Kettering from trains to and from Nottingham, Derby, Sheffield and Leeds.   Those poor souls who live in, for example, Bedford and wish to visit, for example, Derby will have to change twice.  This sounds to me like an incentive to make the journey by road.  If EMR are aiming to take traffic off the M1 they seem to be going about it in an interesting way.

 

Chris

 

This is a long overdue move which should have taken place decades ago!

 

ECML trains do not serve the likes of Huntingdon do they and WCML express trains have long bypassed Northampton.

 

If folk form either place want to go north then they must change at Rugby or Peterborough and the world hasn’t fallen in.

 

The ONLY reason EMT still serve intermediate stations between Leicester and Bedford is the lack of any other service that could serve them thanks to The a Beaching cutbacks which remove local trains north of Bedford.

 

In reality they are far too closely spaced for an InterCity style operation and electrification offers the chance to remedy a situation that is hampering efforts to improve journey times between London and the East Midlands.

 

As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs - and when looked at from the point of view of ALL MML users right from Sheffield to London, the benefits outweigh the disbenifit to a select group of commuters.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

This is a long overdue move which should have taken place decades ago!

 

ECML trains do not serve the likes of Huntingdon do they and WCML express trains have long bypassed Northampton.

 

If folk form either place want to go north then they must change at Rugby or Peterborough and the world hasn’t fallen in.

 

The ONLY reason EMT still serve intermediate stations between Leicester and Bedford is the lack of any other service that could serve them thanks to The a Beaching cutbacks which remove local trains north of Bedford.

 

In reality they are far too closely spaced for an InterCity style operation and electrification offers the chance to remedy a situation that is hampering efforts to improve journey times between London and the East Midlands.

 

As the saying goes, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs - and when looked at from the point of view of ALL MML users right from Sheffield to London, the benefits outweigh the disbenifit to a select group of commuters.

 

 

 

I get your logic, but Bedford and especially Luton, cannot be compared to Huntingdon. Both are more akin to Peterborough in size and catchment. It is a tricky path that the EMT management tread....... LNER still regularly call at Stevenage too for example. 

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1 hour ago, Mike Storey said:

 

I get your logic, but Bedford and especially Luton, cannot be compared to Huntingdon. Both are more akin to Peterborough in size and catchment. It is a tricky path that the EMT management tread....... LNER still regularly call at Stevenage too for example. 

 

LNER may still call at Stevenage - but that is the ONLY stop south of Peterborough.

 

EMT by contrast have a habit of stopping far more frequently - not only does this slow trains to / from the East Midlands down, it also means less seats for long distance travellers.

 

Nobody is suggesting that EMT should completely cease serving stations south of Kettering - but it should only be ONE, not any more as occurs at present.

 

Luton Airport is perhaps an obvious candidate from a strategic perspective - but if you really want to offer more choice then that ONE stop could be at Luton (Central) OR  Bedford OR Wellingborough. Doing that though means a less consistent service pattern - at least with LNER sticking with just Stevenage you know where you need to get to for ALL InterCity services to the north.

 

 

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11 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Nobody is suggesting that EMT should completely cease serving stations south of Kettering

 

 

Forgive me if I have misread the comments above, but that appears to be exactly what they are suggesting?

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Perhaps at some point in the future sanity will return and Bedford will became a major interchange between EMT, EWR and Thameslink. I'll not hold my breath.

 

Jamie

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46 minutes ago, Mike Storey said:

 

Forgive me if I have misread the comments above, but that appears to be exactly what they are suggesting?

 

While that may be what has suggested in a meeting to Bedford users - its not necessarily the complete story as it were. Just because Bedford loses out that doesn't automatically mean Luton or Wellingborough will be definitely dropped in their entirety.

 

It could of course be that in light of the PRM rolling stock and timetabling issues, the reductions have developed further than was originally proposed  - but until we see the actual timetable then I would be suspicious of any verbal comments made at user group meetings, however high up the company the person making them is.

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