scorpion Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) but the shoe coach will be new build, panto on the roof, shoes on the bogies, sorted Edited July 15, 2012 by scorpion Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DerekEm8 Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) All the talk of emcouraging electric freight reminds me of DRS trialing this about 2004-2005. There were spare locos available but almost as soon as the trials began there was also a massive hike in electric loco access charges - end of trials and back to diesels. 87022,66407 WBQ 30 Nov 2004 87006,87022,87028 WBQ 8 Feb 2005 Edited July 15, 2012 by DerekEm8 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 but the shoe coach will be new build, panto on the roof, shoes on the bogies, sorted Good point. However, don't they need pickups on at least a couple of bogies a reasonable distance apart? Would having them on the same vehicle be sufficient? . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 but the shoe coach will be new build, panto on the roof, shoes on the bogies, sorted And watch the train get gapped... There's a reason for shoes over multiple coaches on 3rd rail. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Bring on the 3rd rail to overhead conversion as discussed on here previously! At least for Basingstoke to Southampton it makes a lot of sense for both CrossCountry and freight. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 15, 2012 Share Posted July 15, 2012 Bring on the 3rd rail to overhead conversion as discussed on here previously! At least for Basingstoke to Southampton it makes a lot of sense for both CrossCountry and freight. They've just squeezed the extra height out of the tunnels between Basingstoke and Winchester...and lowered the Southampton tunnel... for the 9'6" containers. Will there be enough room for the knitting as well? . 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2012 They've just squeezed the extra height out of the tunnels between Basingstoke and Winchester...and lowered the Southampton tunnel... for the 9'6" containers. Will there be enough room for the knitting as well? . I'm not sure but I think the main problem with the containers was the corners not the overall height. With most tunnel profiles it can usually be done. I have been told that Standedge Tunnel on the Trans Pennine route will accommodate the knitting. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 I'm not sure but I think the main problem with the containers was the corners not the overall height. With most tunnel profiles it can usually be done. I have been told that Standedge Tunnel on the Trans Pennine route will accommodate the knitting. Jamie This has been dealt with quite easily in various locations on the continent. When there is not enough room for the "knitting", you fix a conductor rail to the roof of the tunnel. Not sure if it has been done with AC though so you might need dual voltage equipment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 This has been dealt with quite easily in various locations on the continent. When there is not enough room for the "knitting", you fix a conductor rail to the roof of the tunnel. Not sure if it has been done with AC though so you might need dual voltage equipment. It's been done in Britain with ac ohle - Anglia/Norwich scheme over a swingbridge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 Thinking about the finances for this project and comparing it (as someone ought to) with the finance of the football world (about which I know very little), a google search of player transfer fees/match ticket prices etc. throws up some interesting comparisons. £5bn to electrify the railway is 100 player transfer fees at £50m each; or at an average of £50 per match ticket is 1bn tickets; or with £40m annual sponsorship from Barclays (boo hiss)for premier league is 125 seasons of sponsorship; 1bn match tickets makes it 2500 football matches to pay for the electrification! (if my maths are right)... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Here are the details (from the DfT website)...... Crossrail, Thameslink, and electrification between London and Cardiff, Manchester to Liverpool and Preston, and across the Pennines, are among £5.2bn of projects already committed to during 2014-2019. New schemes totalling £4.2bn unveiled today include: “Upgrades to stations and tracks creating enough capacity around cities for an additional 140,000 daily rail commutes at peak times. In addition to Crossrail and Thameslink, announced previously, today’s enhancements – such as the £350m lengthening of platforms at London Waterloo station – will provide capacity for 120,000 more daily commutes in and out of London and 20,100 extra daily commutes across Birmingham, Leeds, Manchester and other cities. “Faster journeys and more train capacity from £240m of improvements along the East Coast Main Line from the North East down through Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Cambridgeshire to London. “The creation of a high-capacity “electric spine†running from Yorkshire and the West Midlands to South Coast ports allowing more reliable electric trains to cut journey times and boost capacity for passengers and freight. This comprises: an £800m electrification and upgrade from Sheffield – through Nottingham, Derby and Leicester – to Bedford, completing the full electrification of the Midland Main Line out of London St Pancras; and electrification of the lines from Nuneaton and Bedford to Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke and Southampton. “The landmark decision to take electric rail beyond Cardiff to Swansea, completing the full electrification of the Great Western Main Line out of London Paddington at a total cost of more than £600m, and electrifying the Welsh Valley lines, including Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and the Vale of Glamorgan. These will give two-thirds of the Welsh population access to new fleets of electric trains helping to generate Welsh jobs and growth by slashing journey times and boosting passenger and freight capacity. “Completion in full of the “Northern Hub†cluster of rail enhancements with the approval of £322m of outstanding track and capacity upgrades across Manchester city centre, Manchester Airport and across to Liverpool. These are in addition to £477m of Northern Hub schemes already approved across the North of England such as electrification of the North Trans Pennine route between York and Manchester. “A new £500m rail link between the Great Western Main Line and Heathrow allowing direct services to the airport for passengers from the West Country, the Thames Valley and Wales. . Edited July 16, 2012 by Ron Ron Ron 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) and electrification of the lines from Nuneaton and Bedford to Oxford, Reading, Basingstoke and Southampton. Welcome to the new world order! Edited July 16, 2012 by Glorious NSE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Very interesting. The idea of a electric spine for freight implies reinstatement of the four-track sections of the Midland around Leicester and between Kettering and Bedford, and possibly even electrification via Corby and Oakham. The logic also suggests conversion of Basingstoke to Southampton to 25kV - use of 92s on third rail is an outside possibility but the cost of power supply upgrades may not be much short of conversion. Sounds like the Bletchley flyover will be doing the job it was built for, after a gap of half a century. Who said the British weren't good at forward planning?! Is Birmingham to Leamington included or will all electric services have to go via Coventry? If the idea is to concentrate freight on the Midland then I wonder where this leaves other freight upgrades such as the GN/GE joint or even the WCML which has up to now been suggested for long-term conversion to UIC gauge. The Midland should be a better option for any ideas of running Euro-wagons north of London, because they can't pass standard UK platforms but on the Midland there is more scope to segregate passenger and freight and eventually remove platforms on the freight lines. Edited July 16, 2012 by Edwin_m Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) It didn't take long for the cost of MML to rise from £500m to £800m! Also I would have expected "full electrification" of GWML to include Plymouth to Penzance. Confirmation that the Valley Lines are to be wired is welcome but makes me wonder what sort of stock will be used. My suspicious nature is picturing Tyne & Wear Metro cars for some reason. At least it will mean deliverance from those god-awful nodding donkeys. Chris Edited July 16, 2012 by chrisf 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) There are some maps on the DfT web site. This one shows the "central spine" to Basingstoke and Southampton and the Cardiff to Swansea + valleys.Note that the Thames branches appear there too - Bourne End & Marlow, Henley, Slough to Windsor. Map of all schemes. Plus here is the detail on the "electric spine"..... The Electric Spine  Southampton Port – Basingstoke enhancement from 750 DC third rail electrification to 25 kv AC overhead electrification; Basingstoke – Reading 25 kv AC overhead electrification;  Oxford – Banbury - Leamington Spa 25 kv AC overhead electrification;  Leamington Spa – Coventry capacity enhancement 25 kv AC overhead electrification and additional double track; Coventry – Nuneaton 25 kv AC overhead electrification;  Oxford – Bicester Town - Bletchley – Bedford 25 kv AC overhead electrification and double track (core of East West Rail); Bedford – Nottingham and Derby, and Derby – Sheffield (Midland Main Line) 25 kv AC overhead electrification; Leicester area capacity enhancement (freight/passenger crossing flows); Derby station area remodelling in conjunction with renewals; Sheffield station area remodelling in conjunction with renewals; Kettering – Corby 25 kv AC overhead electrification; Kettering – Corby capacity enhancement (additional double track); And, where applicable, on all routes loading gauge enhancement to W12 . Edited July 16, 2012 by Ron Ron Ron 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 The logic also suggests conversion of Basingstoke to Southampton to 25kV - use of 92s on third rail is an outside possibility but the cost of power supply upgrades may not be much short of conversion. Plus that still would leave XC trains and operators who do not roster 92s running diesels....all passenger stock on that bit can also convert to AC, and we're told that also gives operating savings too... Is Birmingham to Leamington included or will all electric services have to go via Coventry? No mention of that (and it would connect to thea currently non-electrified route North of Birmingham, so logically less useful) - but freight should also be able to go via Bletchley instead of Nuneaton-Coventry-Leamington... Absolutely fascinating... Some links if folk want to dig: DFT press release text: http://www.dft.gov.u...ress-20120716a/ Full HLOS http://www.dft.gov.u...ions/hlos-2012/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan452 Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 “The creation of a high-capacity “electric spine†running from Yorkshire and the West Midlands to South Coast ports allowing more reliable electric trains to cut journey times and boost capacity for passengers and freight. Perhapes a halt should be called on sending any more Class 92's to Bulgaria. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 ....and the rest...... South Wales Electrification 25 kv AC overhead electrification of  Cardiff Central to Cardiff Queen Street,  Cardiff Queen Street to Aberdare,  Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay,  Cardiff Queen Street to Coryton,  Newport to Ebbw Vale,  Cardiff Central – Pontyclun – Bridgend – Maesteg,  Abercynon - Merthyr Tydfil,  Grangetown to Penarth,  Cardiff Central – Danescourt – Radyr (City Line),  Cardiff Queen Street to Rhymney,  Pontypridd to Treherbert,  Cardiff Central – Barry – Bridgend (Vale of Glamorgan),  Barry to Barry Island, and  Bridgend to Swansea. Thames Valley  Acton – Willesden 25 kv AC overhead electrification.  Slough – Windsor 25 kv AC overhead electrification.  Maidenhead – Marlow 25 kv AC overhead electrification.  Twyford – Henley-on-Thames 25 kv AC overhead electrification, and  Oxford station area capacity and station enlargement. Midlands  Walsall – Rugeley 25 kv AC overhead electrification, Water Orton – Tamworth capacity, and Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains. Yorkshire  Micklefield – Selby 25 kv AC overhead electrification,  Micklefield turnback,  Huddersfield Station capacity enhancement,  West Yorkshire platform lengthening including Leeds,  South Yorkshire platform lengthening, and  Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains. Airports and Ports  Heathrow Western Access subject to business case and conclusion of an agreement with the aviation industry,  Ely area capacity enhancement (freight/passenger crossing flows) and Redhill additional platform Northern Hub and Manchester  Liverpool – Manchester track capacity (Huyton – Northern Hub),  Manchester Airport fourth platform (Northern Hub ,  Castlefield corridor additional capacity and additional through platforms at Manchester Piccadilly (Northern Hub),  Rochdale turnback (Northern Hub), and  Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains South East  London Waterloo platform lengthening and station throat expansion,  Virginia Water - Reading line platform lengthening for 10-car operation,  Gordon Hill turnback,  West Anglia Lower Lea Valley capacity enhancement (turnback facilities),  Bow Junction capacity enhancement (potentially CP6),  East Kent capacity enhancement including relocation of Rochester Station,  Uckfield line platform lengthening for 10-car operation,  Norwood Junction capacity enhancement (turnback facilities),  Paddington station passenger capacity improvements,  Victoria station passenger capacity improvements,  Clapham Junction station congestion relief,  Wimbledon station congestion relief,  Traction power upgrade – Kent, Sussex, Wessex, Anglia, LNE,  South London HV traction power upgrade, and  Depot and stabling enhancement for extra trains West  Filton – Bristol capacity enhancement (four-track).  Bristol Temple Meads station capacity and incorporation of historic Digby Wyatt train shed. Station potentially a focus of wider city regeneration.  Route gauge clearance for different DMUs. East Coast (Ring fenced £240m enhancement fund)  Stevenage Down platform addition,  Huntingdon – Fletton capacity enhancement (four track),  Peterborough Down LDHS call time reduction,  Peterborough grade separation for access to GE/GN line,  Doncaster bay platform and track capacity, and  ERTMS signalling system fitted on the south end of the East Coast Main Line (renewals item and not funded as an enhancement). Enhancement Funds  £200m Strategic Freight Network  £300m Passenger Journey Improvement  £100m Station Infrastructure Improvement  £100m Station Access for All  £140m Development and Innovation  £65m Level Crossing Improvement . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2012 Here are the details (from the DfT website)...... “The landmark decision to take electric rail beyond Cardiff to Swansea, completing the full electrification of the Great Western Main Line out of London Paddington at a total cost of more than £600m, and electrifying the Welsh Valley lines, including Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and the Vale of Glamorgan.. Someone seems to have forgotten that the GW main line also goes to the South West. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 Perhapes a halt should be called on sending any more Class 92's to Bulgaria. As it includes 25kv ohle all the way to Southampton (Docks) I don't think that will be essential. What will be essential is for NR to ensure that it offers realistic electricity prices to operators in order to encourage them to use electric traction where it can be used and be able to stand the costs of loco changes where they come off the electrified 'spine'. It also suggests that there might be a use for a decent (six axle?) electric freight loco which doesn't have the complexities of the Class 92. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted July 16, 2012 Share Posted July 16, 2012 On digging deeper (mostly the same documents as linked by Martyn) the scope for electric freight on the "spine" is limited by the apparent omission of Corby to Syston and any continuation north of Sheffield. Omission of routes into Birmingham from Leamington, Nuneaton or Derby also means that electric freight for the West Midlands has to run via Coventry. Many CrossCountry services are also left with short gaps in otherwise electrified routes, possibly suggesting a go-ahead for the Voyager pantograph cars. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 Someone seems to have forgotten that the GW main line also goes to the South West. Not too many marginal constituencies down that way (said with the cynics hat on but one or two in the list do have a hint of as much political thought as sensible railway upgrades). Overall I think it is an excellent step forward but I read an implication that it will be brought in over the next 6 years (some of it clearly will be done in that timescale) which begs the question of where all the design and manufacturing capacity will come from let alone all the safety etc assessment work (unless things are changed). It is going to create a large training and recruitment need, as well as gearing up to do the work, if it is all going to British companies and labour (which is presumably part of Govt's aim as it will be a big shot in the arm of the economy) and that is an excellent thing - but can the railway supply industry handle it after years of being 'slimmed down'? A lot of signalling detail design work/data preparation is already outsourced overseas (and in the case of one concern is encountering quality problems as a consequence) so what is going to happen with a programme this large - a call on the white-haired brigade perhaps? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 16, 2012 Cue to sound of promoters of BML2 weeping quietly in a corner . . . David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 A lot of signalling detail design work/data preparation is already outsourced overseas (and in the case of one concern is encountering quality problems as a consequence) so what is going to happen with a programme this large - a call on the white-haired brigade perhaps? Nothing new in that. In 1989/90, when the railway was going into a boom, the Inter-Sector Business Resources Forum spent a lot of time with the DS&TE people looking at ways of making things happen more quickly. A new second design office in Brum was the instant answer, but it took time to develop, of course. I bet there isn't much resource scope for creating one any faster now - if at all. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted July 16, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 16, 2012 Cue to sound of promoters of BML2 weeping quietly in a corner . . . David I refer you, sir, to my post (No.38 on Page 2) in this thread. I suspect we might hear before too long that 'other network improvements are reducing the urgency to tackle such and such previous ways of handling capacity growth' and perhaps that 'the industry has heavily committed resources to schemes announced in 2011/12 leaving little opportunity at present to commence work on xxxxxxxx' On the other hand more than a few years of dealing with their pronouncements and what they actually turned out to mean might have caused me to have a touch of cynicism ... possibly. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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