A Scottish pre-grouping r-t-r

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I am of similar mind. Fingers crossed that Bachmann find they have hit a motherlode with these small workhorses, and we can have a national round of 2F/3F 0-6-0s. The 'C' class has the extra virtue of being one of the prettier specimens, as well as joint most numerous steam class on BR(SR). Modelling the London area, it's a no-brainer purcahse for me, typical of what wandered onto my BR(ER) patch on freight transfers.

 

Regarding the NRM/Bachmann project, are all the Scottish pregroup locos outside the NRM collection? The Jones goods, NBR and GNoSR 4-4-0s and NBR 0-6-0 are the items I am particularly thinking of.

[Guest stuartp]

Regarding the NRM/Bachmann project, are all the Scottish pregroup locos outside the NRM collection? The Jones goods, NBR and GNoSR 4-4-0s and NBR 0-6-0 are the items I am particularly thinking of.

 

'Maude' and 419 are owned by SRPS. CR 123, 'Glen Douglas', 'Gordon Highlander' and the Jones Goods ae owned by Glasgow Museums.

[craigwelsh]

Surely you need the secure funding in place before approaching manufacturers?

 

Those shops the manufacturers have dealt with have a lot of assets available to secure any deal as well as a decent bank balance I would think. The NRM is a national museum.

 

I would say that Hattons, Rails and Kernow are probably the big 3 in UK mail order now. Kernow had commissions a lot of wagon packs and loco repaints before the Dapol commissions. Is there a Scottish mail order firm with equally robust funding to entertain a commission?

 

Harburns only did cheap wagon repaints iirc?

 

Who runs Glasgow transport museum? Maybe they would like to follow the NRM now they have their locos in a shiny new building.. Reading the above it seems Glasgow Museums is possibly who to ask..

[Bernard Lamb]

 

Who runs Glasgow transport museum? Maybe they would like to follow the NRM now they have their locos in a shiny new building.. Reading the above it seems Glasgow Museums is possibly who to ask..

 

That would only be any good for people who want to hang their models on the wall.

Bernard

[AngusDe]

As far as a quick Google can tell me, the NRM had just over 600,000 visitors in 2010, the riverside museum in Glasgow, over 1,000,000 since it opened in June.

 

Not strictly comparable, but models for/from the collection(s) must have some commercial value beyond us modelling nuts, lol!

 

As far as the OP original idea of sending a email saying "I've some money to invest, how about..." I'm surprised any manufacturer would spend any time on a reply to what is in effect a anonymous proposition, it might well be coming from a Nigerian Prince. I suspect you would need to be known to them as a respected model railway figure directly (or via a respected intermediary such as Hattons) and have a big brown envelope for the up front capital before you'd get your foot in the door. Besides, as far as I can tell they have trouble delivering the models they've promised to produce as it is.

 

I'd love to know how many 123s Triang and its successors have sold over the years, and what was their thinking when they commissioned it? It certainly seems to have been a seller based on its looks rather than the ubiquitous nature of the prototype or geographic spread, so who knows?

 

That's not to say if my redundancy cheque at the end of December has a typo with 3 extra zeros on the end I might be tempted myself to commission a 303 EMU, a Caley 0-4-4T and a few others as well.

 

 

Angus

[BernardTPM]

I'd love to know how many 123s Triang and its successors have sold over the years, and what was their thinking when they commissioned it? It certainly seems to have been a seller based on its looks rather than the ubiquitous nature of the prototype or geographic spread, so who knows?

Angus

This is covered in Pat Hammond's book on Tri-ang Railways. They'd developed the chassis for the GWR Lord of the Isles and wanted something different to go on it. The real loco had been running in the then not too distant past and was about as different as you could get: bright blue rather than dark green and inside frame rather than outside (I have little doubt that the front bogie is shared with another Tri-ang model). As to how many sold, he says 6300 in 1963 and a further 5000 in '64, the rest of the run (doesn't say how many) eked out until 1967. After that it was rerun in 1973 and 1983 (and again a few years ago). Of course, in those days you could get away with a lot of compromises that wouldn't be acceptable today.

[AngusDe]

Bernard,

 

As to how many sold, he says 6300 in 1963 and a further 5000 in '64, the rest of the run (doesn't say how many) eked out until 1967. After that it was rerun in 1973 and 1983 (and again a few years ago).

 

That really is interesting, they sold over 11,000 in 2 years, I'd never have guessed!

 

Maybe there is scope for Bachmann to do a up-to-date version.......

 

;-)

 

Angus

(lights blue touch paper and steps back)

[craigwelsh]

 

That would only be any good for people who want to hang their models on the wall.

Bernard

Best send an email to MREmag then, they'll look lovely up there viewed from the armchair .

 

Im not surprised at 11,000 new models sold in 2 years as the hobbies height before computer games etc entered the market as competition.

 

I still think different and shiney sell models just as well as any geographical and route mileage figures do. Its probably why we're seeing so much interest in the Beattie Well Tank without a massive selection of layouts of that particular line.

[davknigh]

I may be wrong here but I had the impression that the MREmag poll catches the eye of the manufacturers. ISTR that after the Scottish loco poll here last year (?) a reasonable number of people also recorded their desires on the MRE list as well. A little bit of constant pressure on this front can do no harm and in fact may aid the cause. Better yet would be the idea of getting behind a single engine or at the very most a pair to concentrate the vote so perhaps a Caley 439 or a NB J36 would be a Good Thing.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[kevinlms]

Surely you need the secure funding in place before approaching manufacturers?

 

 

Surely you need to establish a starting point first? In particular how much and what is the minimum run for they would consider? I would imagine that the major manufacturers have some sort of marketing person to assist with that sort of enquiry. from a genuine person/organisation and indeed quality of finished item. After all its all about price per unit, planned sales of 100 units would cost much more each, than if you could guarantee having 10,000 units made up front.

 

It is possible that a well-heeled modeller would only be too happy to pay full price for a run & give away any beyond his/her needs. OK, that's unlikely (and it won't be me), but it could happen.

 

Kevin Martin

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The minimum run size is going to depend on the up-front funding and projected retail cost among other factors. A reasonably recent data point we have is that the NRM/Bachmann DP1 commission was for 5,000 units. That chimes with a quote from Graham Hubbard in MR 9/2007: " If someone wants to commit to ordering 5,000 .. then we are happy to begin negotiating.". (He also estimated a figure of £165,000 to develop and tool a Beyer-Garratt in that same article; note that this was to complete tooling, the materials cost for the production run comes on top of that.) You can see the economic picture in this for the manufacturer. The development and tooling 'eats' a proportion of the available development and toolroom resource they have for maintaining a flow of newly tooled models: it must lead to a production run which meets the base case for the manufacturing operation. The business model is very much centred around maintaining a flow of new tooled models.

 

The impression I have is that Dapol and Heljan are able to work on a somewhat smaller volume, 2,000 - 3,000 units, simply based on the information around their releases; the initial batch of 3 x 800 Falcons for a total 2,400 units for example.

[BernardTPM]

If Heljan can make 'Lion' work in economic terms (one livery, lasted only two years!) then a long-lived Scottish class that would go from pre-Group to preservation must be a possibilty. Could be a bit like EMUs: nothing for years, then three in a row!

[Caledonian]

Of course, in those days you could get away with a lot of compromises that wouldn't be acceptable today.

 

I'm not sure about this one. It depends on the "real" market...

 

For reasons that needn't detain us I'm currently running three Jinties; one of them Mr Bachmann's and the other two being Mr Hornby's. The first is quite splendid, with a suitable degree of fine detail etc., while the other two are basic Railroad models sprayed plain black on the outside and painted black and mucky cream inside the cab. Were I into digital photography and other forms of display Mr Bachmann's loco would be the only one worth considering, but I'm not, I like to shunt my locos and stock and unless I need to get low down and dirty to fix something that means half a metre away and at that distance for all practical purposes the very real difference in quality evaporates.

 

Now don't get me wrong. I would love to get my hands on something every bit as detailed as the Bachmann Jinty, but in the absence of a commitment to proper Scottish locos by the manufacturers I'd cheerfully settle in the meantime for a cheap and cheerful body to clip on to the Hornby standard 0-6-0 chassis and Type 7 motor.

[Jamie]

Edited:

comment withdrawn - we're going over old ground again as to the viability of individual prototypes.

 

Would be good to get back to the OP topic if there's hope of moving forward

[coachmann]

Unless one is into manufaturing for a living, why ask Bachmann to produce thousands of one type of loco when you only need one?

 

Far less expensive to ask someone who can operate CAD to draw you the parts and have them etched. Then sell the surplus to friends,which will then recover your costs and even return a profit.

[S.A.C Martin]

Just to point out that a user on here - appropriately named Ben Alder - has built Ben Alder, or a very convincing likeness of, from a Hornby T9. If all that is required is a body swap and a new tender, is a Small Ben a viable RTR model on that basis? I'm not aware of any differences RE wheel spokes in driving wheels, etc, but if it is that similar as a 4-4-0 that (in this day and age) sharing chassis components is possible, perhaps a concerted effort to examine just how difficult it would be to produce RTR from the standing point of a T9 is in order?

 

That is, of course, if a Small Ben is wanted by enough people in the first place.

[coachmann]

The Highland Railway 'Small Ben' and 'Big Ben' has 9ft wheelbase, the T9's 10ft.

 

The H.R. Drummond 'Barney' 0-6-0 had 7ft 6ins X 9ft wheelbase = 16ft 6ins. Same overall w.b. as the Midland 3F, so a HR 0-6-0 is possible with a slight shifting in position of the middle splasher. Trouble is it needs 5ft drivers! Not 5ft 3ins.

[Silver Sidelines]

Up in the wilds of Scotland(Drought , what drought?) I bought a Bachmann LT Pannier Tank. Now , clearly this was never seen in Scotland, but I bought it because it was something different and it made a change from one of my Green or Black Steamers. I'm probably going to invest in a Bacchy Blue Pullman because it will be a lovely model to own in its own right. Its my railway and I run what gives me pleasure. I don't think there are that many modellers out their who are so disciplined that they only buy for the period/company that they are modelling. And I think this is where model railway manufacturers miss out. They do not consider that people will buy models because they are beautiful models in their own right and that people get pleasure from owning them. Triang used to do it which is why we had the original Caley 123 and GWR Lord of the Isles. I thought Bacmann were going that way (with the NRM) and certainly Deltic, Truro and Compound 1000 qualify as such models. Something different would be a Caley Blue loco all lined out in full regalia. Who could resist? Come on Bachmann - you've even got a pic of a Dunalastair IV at Kirriemuir in your latest collector mag. Stop teasing!

I seem to recollect seeing a picture of ex GWR pannier tanks that were brought north in the early 1960s to run on some branchline in place of the aging Scottish locos, Dingwall perhaps?

 

Others more knowledgable can probably confirm.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[Ben Alder]

Ben Alder has some compromises with using the T9 as a basis, the most obvious being too large drivers, but is passable to my eyes- the alternative being to try and assemble the collection of optimism that passes for the chassis and running gear in the thirty plus year old kit. By using RTR, I now have a smooth runner of a class of engine that is most unlikely to ever be produced.

 

The lack of Scottish locos has been gone over before, and I daresay that eventually something will appear. Whether its when I am around to appreciate it is another matter- the last thirty years have been somewhat barren , but the most widespread company ranges were the ex Caley engines, and the consensus last time around hinged on the 439 and 812/Jumbo as possible candidates.

Perhaps time will tell.

 

PS- the panniers worked the Dornoch branch, and the spare was shedded at Helmsdale. After its closure, one turned up at Dingwall as station pilot for a time.

[McW]

Re Panniers

1646 & 1649 came to the Dornoch Branch to replace the last Highland Drummond Passenger Tank. Although of Great Western design they were actually built by British Railways.

 

Paul B

[t-b-g]

I have been reading this one with interest as my own modelling is pre grouping steam. There is precious little available RTR south of the border too but to me that is one of the big appeals. I don't have to compete with Hornby/Bachmann on quality and detail (phew!) and the locos on my layout don't look like everybody elses because they have had to be made rather than bought.

 

Although the RTR firms are beginning to dip some toes into pregrouping waters, it will be a long long time before any particular company has a big enough range of locos and stock to allow a representative layout to be produced from purely RTR sources.

 

When you look back at old model railway magazines of the 1960s/70s, there were a number of very RTR ingenious conversions going on of the sort that you don't see often nowadays.

 

One was, I recall, a Mainline J72 into a passable ex LD&ECR 0-6-0T (LNER J60) and others included an A4 into a P2 and a Triang Princess into a Black 5.

 

They pretty much all had some compromises but gave a reasonable representation of what they were supposed to be and (as a good friend of mine says) they were better than the ones we hadn't got!

 

I don't know a great deal about Scottish pre grouping railways but I am sure that somebody out there must have some ideas about possible conversions to Scottish designs. Off the top of my head I wonder about a J83 into one of the 4-4-0T NBR classes, or a Terrier into a Stroudley Highland tank. Perhaps even an M7 into a CR 0-4-4T.

 

I can't help thinking that modellers of the past had a measure of resourcefulness and cunning that we are in danger of forgetting and I would love to see some of our modern day modellers rise to that sort of challenge.

 

I know some people don't have the time or the skill to build or convert locos but perhaps they should stick to modelling periods and areas where the excellent RTR market can provide for their needs.

 

Having sad that, it is a bit of a chicken and egg situation. There are not that many people modelling pregroup Scottish (or anything else) steam because there is so little available. If somebody did take a chance and produce something, or better still a range (say a 4-4-0, an 0-6-0 and a shunting tank plus a couple of carriages) for the same company, I wonder if it would stimulate a whole new wave of interest in the period.

 

The liveries alone make it such a colourful and interesting period of our railway history and the beauty of some of the designs is quite stunning.

[Ben Alder]

"I don't know a great deal about Scottish pre grouping railways but I am sure that somebody out there must have some ideas about possible conversions to Scottish designs. Off the top of my head I wonder about a J83 into one of the 4-4-0T NBR classes, or a Terrier into a Stroudley Highland tank. Perhaps even an M7 into a CR 0-4-4T."

 

Take a look at Kingfisher 24's photo gallery- he has done some ingenious Scottish RTR conversions- all very inspirational, to my mind. It was his take on a Small Ben that started me off attacking T9's. I also hacked a M7 into a Caley shape some time ago, but that was before I discovered RMWeb, so no record of construction was kept.

[t-b-g]

"I don't know a great deal about Scottish pre grouping railways but I am sure that somebody out there must have some ideas about possible conversions to Scottish designs. Off the top of my head I wonder about a J83 into one of the 4-4-0T NBR classes, or a Terrier into a Stroudley Highland tank. Perhaps even an M7 into a CR 0-4-4T."

 

Take a look at Kingfisher 24's photo gallery- he has done some ingenious Scottish RTR conversions- all very inspirational, to my mind. It was his take on a Small Ben that started me off attacking T9's. I also hacked a M7 into a Caley shape some time ago, but that was before I discovered RMWeb, so no record of construction was kept.

 

Excellent stuff! The spirit of those modellers lives on!

[Portchullin Tatty]

The Highland Railway 'Small Ben' and 'Big Ben' has 9ft wheelbase, the T9's 10ft.

 

The H.R. Drummond 'Barney' 0-6-0 had 7ft 6ins X 9ft wheelbase = 16ft 6ins. Same overall w.b. as the Midland 3F, so a HR 0-6-0 is possible with a slight shifting in position of the middle splasher. Trouble is it needs 5ft drivers! Not 5ft 3ins.

 

And the Caley jumbo and the LSWR Blackmotor were very very similar too (I think the Blackmotor had a rather different smokebox but that would surely be surmountable?).

 

So three loco's, three different railway companies at both ends of the country and all of them lasted into the BR period.

 

Now surely that is a sell?

[Portchullin Tatty]

 

And the Caley jumbo and the LSWR Blackmotor were very very similar too (I think the Blackmotor had a rather different smokebox but that would surely be surmountable?).

 

So three loco's, three different railway companies at both ends of the country and all of them lasted into the BR period.

 

Now surely that is a sell?

 

 

Oh sorry, I forgot the NB had a Drummond small 0-6-0 too (sorry don't know its variant name in LNER days).

 

So that is four locos, four pregrouping companies, three grouping companies, at both ends of the country and they lasted into BR days...........