Lee m22 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 The Bristol RELH lasted in to the late 70s and the VR and National are mid 1970s- early 80s production, and Crosvile had examples of all those three. (I'm just curious where you are sourcing the 1:160 scale UK rolling stock to match though... ) Perversely, this may be the one use where the undernourished models come into their own. If Lee wants to use for back-scene, a 1:160 bus will force perspective a wee bit, so won't be as bad as using at the front of house or, dare I say it, posed on a bridge! Thanks for the info Yep, 2' back from the leading edge of my layout, surrounded by my first few attempts of scratchbuilt buildings, one of these buses will probably look better than their intended surroundings on my layout. I am dissapointed to hear that GF have failed to get the scale right especially considering they are the largest 1:148 british outline railway producer. With that in mind though, do I think they will rectify it? No! From what I understand of the industry, tooling is far too expensive to be discarded, even when errenous. They might discontinue the line completely and blame it on poor sales/bad reception. They are more likly to run the product and enjoy the sales from the masses who don't notice or don't read forums and articles or product reviews. At very best, if they did fix it, I imagine the £7 bus would become something more like £12. Frustrating yes, but it's once again down to the modeller to make best use of the tools/products they've got. One thing is for certain, and that is modelling a good scene is all about perception. If I can make one of these vehicles look good on my layout for the relatively cheap outlay, then I'll be taking some of the kudos for it GF! Regards Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreamnos Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 I'm reserving judgement until I see one in the flesh when I'm over visiting family in April. The real pity would be that if sales are poor due to the scale issue, whether Bachmann/Farish would consider any further models in this range, especially given the long lead time experienced with these. Well, you won't see anything different "in the flesh" than in the photos here. They are nice models until put next to something that is correctly scaled to 1:148. Then they look all wrong. I genuinely hope sales are poor! They should be. The only way consumers can really get the manufacturers to fix things is through the market, by rejecting defective goods. If a manufacturer (Bachmann in this case) decides to abandon the British N scale model bus market we are not really worse off since Bachmann's British N scale buses couldn't be used for their intended purpose anyway. We are just back where we started. There are several other bus models in this range listed on a certain Liverpool retailer's website which have not yet been received into its stock and are being advertised for pre-order only. Given the wrong scale issue and how that would surely affect sales, I am curious to see if the retailer decides to take these as yet to be released models into stock or not. I mean, why would they tie up capital in inventory that they won't be able to sell? Finally, and I know this is a bit OT, but I've noticed the same Liverpool retailer is selling N scale lorries made by "Base Toys." Does anyone know anything about these? Maybe I'll start another thread. Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Hi Matt i have 2 of them these look in scale and are detailed andwith side mirrors added bonus they are saying more 'n' vehicles to come so looks good Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Thanks for the info Yep, 2' back from the leading edge of my layout, surrounded by my first few attempts of scratchbuilt buildings, one of these buses will probably look better than their intended surroundings on my layout. I am dissapointed to hear that GF have failed to get the scale right especially considering they are the largest 1:148 british outline railway producer. With that in mind though, do I think they will rectify it? No! From what I understand of the industry, tooling is far too expensive to be discarded, even when errenous. They might discontinue the line completely and blame it on poor sales/bad reception. They are more likly to run the product and enjoy the sales from the masses who don't notice or don't read forums and articles or product reviews. At very best, if they did fix it, I imagine the £7 bus would become something more like £12. Frustrating yes, but it's once again down to the modeller to make best use of the tools/products they've got. One thing is for certain, and that is modelling a good scene is all about perception. If I can make one of these vehicles look good on my layout for the relatively cheap outlay, then I'll be taking some of the kudos for it GF! Regards Lee Hi Lee agreed. My two harrington Coaches will be on the road so they wont look too bad im happy with the detail too. Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee m22 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I'll be interested to see what the mags have to say about these as they are sure to have reviews on the vehicles in the next month or so. (if not already) Opinions on the model's aside - I don't think GF are going to have too much trouble shifting these vehicles. In the long run they will be marketed, and they will fill a gap in the market, and the majority will buy them blissfully unaware of the scale issues. Certainly before getting them home, but I still doubt many will notice. The depth's of pockets, the lack of alternatives, and relative stand-alone quality of the model will probably make the call for the bulk of sales, along with marketing and exposure. Afterall - and this has always interested me when reading reviews that criticise rtr products - If scale was the be all and end all of a product's quality, then we would all be modelling in 2mm FS or P4 etc instead of the rtr scales. The masses have already spoken and conveinience wins over technical accuracy. GF know's what scale it's made the models at. And they also will have no doubt that they will sell - otherwise why would they make it past prototype? Accurate or not, I expect GF will do well with this range, probably encouraging them to make other products to support the demand for 'N' scale vehicles. And they won't want to highlight the vehicle scales by correcting the scale on later model designs either. It's dissapointing, but that's the way I imagine things will turn out. Regards Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 I think its how we see things to me, these are ok i mean ,if you compare oxford diecast route masters to BH ones their is a difference in scale BH route masters look much wider oxford diecasts look slimmer so where do you draw the line FARISH may be slightly out but they are well detailed and represent what i used to ride in back in my youth but thats just my opinion. Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The ... relative stand-alone quality of the model ... Afterall - and this has always interested me when reading reviews that criticise rtr products - If scale was the be all and end all of a product's quality, then we would all be modelling in 2mm FS or P4 etc instead of the rtr scales. The masses have already spoken and conveinience wins over technical accuracy. I think its how we see things to me, these are ok ... FARISH may be slightly out but they are well detailed and represent what i used to ride in back in my youth but thats just my opinion. I don't think anyone is denying that these are finely moulded models and a very good representation of the prototypes - at least as good as any other UK prototype in sub 1:100 scales... It is a sign of the advances in British N Gauge over the last decade that we are now kicking up such a fuss over the 8% discrepancy in scale, when just a few years ago we would have happily used left hand drive continental scale vehicles (because that was all that was available!) on our UK based layouts without a second thought... Road vehicles like everything outside the railway boundary do seem to be of secondary inportance and greater discrepancies tollerated. Infact even now, it's not uncommon to see HO (1:87) scale road vehicles plonked on 1:76 scale (OO, EM and even P4) layouts... Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee m22 Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Road vehicles like everything outside the railway boundary do seem to be of secondary inportance and greater discrepancies tollerated. Infact even now, it's not uncommon to see HO (1:87) scale road vehicles plonked on 1:76 scale (OO, EM and even P4) layouts... Paul Agreed. I think you've hit the nail on the head there. Regards Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 It is a sign of the advances in British N Gauge over the last decade that we are now kicking up such a fuss over the 8% discrepancy in scale, when just a few years ago we would have happily used left hand drive continental scale vehicles (because that was all that was available!) on our UK based layouts without a second thought.. Most of the N vehicles made say 20-30 years ago didn't have interiors - really it was only buses, where LHD/RHD affects the positions of the doors that was obvious. Having moved from P4 to N I just had to build (or rebuild) my own N buses and coaches, of course! Road vehicles like everything outside the railway boundary do seem to be of secondary inportance and greater discrepancies tollerated. Infact even now, it's not uncommon to see HO (1:87) scale road vehicles plonked on 1:76 scale (OO, EM and even P4) layouts... It was my late P4 days I started building cars too because you couldn't get the correct types/sizes otherwise. Steep learning curve, LOL My conscience is clear when I laugh at H0 vehicles on 00 layouts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I genuinely hope sales are poor! Always a little dispiriting to see doom & gloom wished upon our manufacturers. I'd quite like them to stay in business, personally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreamnos Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Always a little dispiriting to see doom & gloom wished upon our manufacturers. I'd quite like them to stay in business, personally. It's also a little dispiriting to see a statement taken out of context. I'd prefer to see the manufacturers stay in business, too. But they should only do that if they offer products that are worth buying, otherwise they should fail and let the market work. These buses are nice models and perhaps many people will find a use for them. I can't because I've previously invested in more appropriately scaled vehicles that make the underscale Farish buses just look too small and that discrepancy is something I dislike. I'm sure other modellers would dislike things that don't bother me at all, such as the big uncoupling magnets I have placed plain as day between the rails to uncouple my MT fitted stock. I think in this day and age with CAD well established and 3D printing on the verge of becoming mainstream (which will be fantastic) that kicking up a fuss is entirely appropriate when something that should have been simple for an experienced manufacturer to do right was done wrong. As consumers I think it is our duty to hold the manufacturers accountable by votng with our pocketbooks and thereby encourage the development of better products. So I do hope sales of the Farish bus range are weak and and that as a consequence Farish corrects the error in scale. I would personally hate to see Farish introduce other wrongly scaled products to enourange demand for its wrongly scaled N scale buses - unless of course it will offer all its locos and stock in 1:160 scale, too! Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Road vehicles like everything outside the railway boundary do seem to be of secondary inportance and greater discrepancies tollerated... I would personally hate to see Farish introduce other wrongly scaled products to enourange demand for its wrongly scaled N scale buses - unless of course it will offer all its locos and stock in 1:160 scale, too! And that is the crux of it... Hands up all those who would have just shrugged their shoulders, said 'oh well never mind' and bought them anyway, if Farish had produced the BR mk1 coaches at 1:160 scale... I'm guessing not many... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 I don't think anyone is denying that these are finely moulded models and a very good representation of the prototypes - at least as good as any other UK prototype in sub 1:100 scales... It is a sign of the advances in British N Gauge over the last decade that we are now kicking up such a fuss over the 8% discrepancy in scale, when just a few years ago we would have happily used left hand drive continental scale vehicles (because that was all that was available!) on our UK based layouts without a second thought... Road vehicles like everything outside the railway boundary do seem to be of secondary inportance and greater discrepancies tollerated. Infact even now, it's not uncommon to see HO (1:87) scale road vehicles plonked on 1:76 scale (OO, EM and even P4) layouts... Paul A fair point Paul. Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Are the Kato/Tomix portram models not made to 1:160, together with the city buildings, andmany modern cars? surely the buses will fit in with these for city modellers like Davis (bmth trains)- or am I completely mistaken Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
£1.38 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Japanese stuff is usually 1:150 scale Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortliner Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 In that case, my apologies - a very quick google came up with 1:160, but naturally I can't find it again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
£1.38 Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 To be fair, it is not altogether as simple as I originally suggested. It is confusing because Japanese firms make European and American models too - these are to 1:160 scale. Their Japanese models are nominally 1:150, but a few are 1:160 and some are larger than 1:150. I once saw a loco that was more like 1:135, if I remember correctly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 A message from Bachmann Europe which addresses the issue. Firstly I would like to reassure readers of RM Web that we do monitor this and other websites as any professional business organisation would. We provide official statements / press releases through the moderators when we need to do so. This is one such occasion. The model buses produced for us as part of the Scenecraft N scale range have unfortunately been a victim of the scale/ratio differences that gives Britain its unique model railway scales. In the rest of the World the N scale ratio is 1:160 and in Britain 1:148. The 1:148 scale/ratio for use in Britain was developed for exactly the same reasons as OO was developed in the UK whilst everyone else in the World uses HO. Somewhere in translation these buses have been produced by one of our sub-contractors to 2mm scale (1:152)â€. Dennis Lovett Public Relations Manager Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 A message from Bachmann Europe which addresses the issue. "Somewhere in translation these buses have been produced by one of our sub-contractors to 2mm scale (1:152)" But we have already collectively established from measuring several of the available models that are are not 2mm scale either, but approx. 1:160 (within normal tolerances of both measuring and production moulding). So they are N, just the wrong version of N for the British market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 A message from Bachmann Europe which addresses the issue. Thank you Andy and Dennis, But as Bernard says and the maths proves they are 1:160, not 1:152 scale (1:152 i.e. 2mm scale would probably have been accepted without question...) The big question is, now that the error is recognised and acknowledged (and full credit for that), what do Bachmann intend to do for future releases? Will they continue to be produced to 1:160, i.e. too small and unusable with other brands' road vehicles but matching those released to date. or Will future production be to the correct 1:148 scale ratio, matching their own rolling stock, and making them usable alongside other brands' road vehicles (but probably making those produced so far unsalable) Appreciate it's an awkward choice: either way the company takes a hit and there are likely to be some upset customers (or non-customers)... Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oreamnos Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 But we have already collectively established from measuring several of the available models that are are not 2mm scale either, but approx. 1:160 (within normal tolerances of both measuring and production moulding). So they are N, just the wrong version of N for the British market. It is nice to see Bachmann admit to producing its whole N scale line of model buses to the wrong scale for British N gauge and they should be thanked for owning up to the error. By someone at least - I'm not prepared to yet as I was really looking forward to these models and am still a bit disappointed! I will take Mr. Lovett at his word that Bachmann's subcontractor manufactured the models to 1:152 but I do have to say that from the calculations done by others (posted at a different thread on this board) and from my own direct measurements of the models with a PECO British N Scale rule (which confirm those calculations), calling them 1:152 is perhaps, well, euphemistic. The buses in reality are much closer to 1:160 than they are to 1:152. I wonder what will happen next to this line. Scrap what they have and start over? Concede the market to Oxford Diecast? Try to sell them in America or on the continent? My vote is to start over. They were really nice models apart from the scale. Matt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted January 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 18, 2012 It is such a shame as the models are very nice, just the wrong size (I remain very sceptical that they are 1:152)! Given the very UK specific nature of the prototypes I wonder if they will sell abroad? I really hope they can be corrected and released in the correct size. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee m22 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 When translation is involved in producing something, you don't use subjective terms like "N scale", you write up a contract/drawing stating 1:148 scale or - taking the risk out of it completely - give the final dimensions of the model on technical drawings. If a sub-contractor cannot correctly inturpret what you want when you use difinitive terms and facts, then surely they are not worthy of the contract? If, after doing this, the product turns up the wrong scale, then surely the effective breech of contract means it's down to the sub-contractors to sort out at their expense. Afterall why write a contract with a sub-contractor if your not going to hold them to it? On the other hand, if you leave your instructions open to mis-inturpretation, then you haven't got a leg to stand on when things don't work out right! Things rarely get "lost in translation". More often they get mis-communicated. All this aside, it doesn't explain why the mis-scaled vehicles were not rejected by Bachmann when they recieved them (surely there was pre-production/factory samples?) In a way I wish Bahmann hadn't released that statment as where I had previously consigned myself to the end result, I now have more questions! One being why is it when companies (not just Bachmann) make statments of admission, they always leave you in the dark about their intentions to resolve the issue!!!!!! Bachmann please put us out of our misery...are you going to correct the errors or are we to live with them? Surely that is the only thing we need to hear from you, and not who, how or why it went wrong? Regards Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BROADTRAIN1979 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Well i wont be binning mine thats for sure but if and a big IF! they re -did them, i would give these back for the correct scale models but i doubt it to happen, so i will stick with what i have., Mark. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 When Ixion/Dapol owned up to producing a British N gauge model (GWR steam loco) to the wrong scale (due to a communication mix up) they withdrew them and re-made it to the correct scale; exchanging customer bought models at no further cost. Will Bachmann match that I wonder? G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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