First Attempt at Handbuilt Track - A complete novice’s experience.

[Guest jim s-w]

Why use expensive lace pins when .7 brass wire from eileens (other sizes and suppliers may exist) does just as good a job, bend over one end, cut to size, solder to rail, jobs a good un

 

just saying.....

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PONY-SEQUIN-AND-BEAD-PINS-BRASS-SIZE-16-x-0-65mm-35grms-/390479854033?pt=UK_Crafts_Sewing_Supplies_MJ&hash=item5aea69b9d1

 

Hardly breaking the bank!

 

Hth

 

Jim

[Campaman]

And the pin head stops the pin being pulled through the hole, how would you stop that from happening using straight wire?

[ikcdab]

I am interested in the discussion about knuckle bends at the common crossing. That they are niot sharp angles, but slight curves.

How best to form these in code 75? Is it bending the rail round a circular former of some sort or is there an easier answer?

[martin_wynne]

14 minutes ago, ikcdab said:

I am interested in the discussion about knuckle bends at the common crossing. That they are niot sharp angles, but slight curves.

How best to form these in code 75? Is it bending the rail round a circular former of some sort or is there an easier answer?

 

Hi,

 

Try this:

 

 

More about knuckle bends: http://templot.com/companion/knuckle_radius.php

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[ikcdab]

hi Martin, brilliant thanks. 

[hayfield]

I don't

know the difference in radii, but just using a pair of pliers to make the bend forms a rounded bend in the rail, this then can be offered up to the plan to match the desired angle, and cut to length at both ends or the rail, then bend the flared end  

[DavidBird]

On 16/12/2011 at 16:05, martin_wynne said:

Hi Ray,

 

Always have the switch blade clipped to the stock rail while fixing it, and pre-curve it in your fingers to match the template when it is so clipped.

 

For 00-SF, when you open the switch blade by 1.75mm at the tip there should be at least 1mm clear all along the back of the blade. If more than 1mm, clip it again and make another solder fixing. Then try the dimensions again. Repeat as necessary. (1.75mm is the thickness of a 20p coin, 1mm is your crossing-flangeway gauge shim).

 

Some 00-SF modellers prefer to build the switch section to 16.5mm gauge. In which case the switch blades need to open by 2.0mm. A 10p coin is suitable for this.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

 

Thanks very much for a very informative thread, especially to Martin, after getting the delivery from C&L I've got the confidence to get the soldering iron out.

 

Can you explain a bit more about this?

 

If I open the blades by a 20p thickness at the tip, then there should be "at least 1mm clear all along the back of the blade. If more than 1mm..."

 

I read that as there should be 1mm or more, but if there is more then it's too much, which seems "mutually exclusive".  What should I be aiming for?

Edited May 6, 2020 by DavidBird

[martin_wynne]

34 minutes ago, DavidBird said:

Can you explain a bit more about this?

 

If I open the blades by a 20p thickness at the tip, then there should be "at least 1mm clear all along the back of the blade. If more than 1mm..."

 

I read that as there should be 1mm or more, but if there is more then it's too much, which seems "mutually exclusive".  What should I be aiming for?

 

Hi David,

 

Sorry I wasn't clear (9 years ago!).

 

That should have read "If more than 1mm, you can safely clip it again and make another solder fixing".

 

As best I recall, I was asked how many timbers the switch blade should be free to flex on. It needs to be more than the prototype because we need to have a wider model flangeway behind it when open.

 

The idea is to work from the far end towards the tip, making fixings. Keep checking the opened clearance, when it gets down to 1mm at the smallest point, stop making fixings. It can be more than 1mm, but in that case it is likely to be free to flex over a longer distance and may not hold the gauge line. But it is better to be more than 1mm than less.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited May 6, 2020 by martin_wynne

[tender]

I'm guessing that should read 'If less than 1mm, clip it again............'

 

Ray.

 

Sorry Martin you beat me to it.

Edited May 6, 2020 by tender

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, DavidBird said:

 

Thanks very much for a very informative thread, especially to Martin, after getting the delivery from C&L I've got the confidence to get the soldering iron out.

 

Can you explain a bit more about this?

 

If I open the blades by a 20p thickness at the tip, then there should be "at least 1mm clear all along the back of the blade. If more than 1mm..."

 

I read that as there should be 1mm or more, but if there is more then it's too much, which seems "mutually exclusive".  What should I be aiming for?

 

David

 

Phil at C&L is fine, like all of us sometimes gets a bit sidetracked plus whilst there is no issue talking with customers it does reduce the amount of time both assembling and packing orders. Also his stock comes in bulk from the injection moulders, it takes time to assemble retail packs and thread flexi track, arrange the labels etc. As a small trader an order is not sent until the order is complete, so may wait a few days for stock to arrive/assembled. large companies cas absorb the odd bit of extra postage

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, tender said:

I'm guessing that should read 'If less than 1mm, clip it again............'

 

Ray.

 

Sorry Martin you beat me to it.

 

 

Ray

 

Whilst having the correct looking gaps is desirable, the most important part is how the tip of the blade interacts with the stock rail. 

 

Vitaly important is ensuring the "set" on curved stock rails, something most instructions either fail to impart or just mention in passing comment 

 

I also find as well as making a 45 degree chamfer in the planing of the stock rail, a minute amount of rounding of the top tip on the switch rail smooths the passage or wheels across the join. No need to make kinks (unless the prototype requires, or file rebates in the stock rail

[brossard]

I only discovered the "set" after some time and making turnouts incorrectly.   As John says it is something that is not given enough emphasis - it is important.

 

I make sets and knuckles (7mm) by bending with pliers and then easing the bend with fingers until it matches the template.

 

Another thing I think is important is to make the crossing separately by photocopying the crossing from the template and building the crossing, something like this:

 

 

I learned this from an article in MRJ about building 4mm turnouts.

 

John

 

[StuartMc]

16 minutes ago, brossard said:

I only discovered the "set" after some time and making turnouts incorrectly.   As John says it is something that is not given enough emphasis - it is important.

 

I make sets and knuckles (7mm) by bending with pliers and then easing the bend with fingers until it matches the template.

 

Another thing I think is important is to make the crossing separately by photocopying the crossing from the template and building the crossing, something like this:

 

 

I learned this from an article in MRJ about building 4mm turnouts.

 

John

 

 

I'm just waiting for my O Gauge track parts to arrive and start working in this scale, but here's a tip I read in an old thread that works great in 4mm and I'm going to try in 7mm: when making bends in rails, a quick way is to to support the track (2 sleepers or scraps of rail works well), place a screwdriver blade on the track in the right place and tap it with a light hammer. Very easy and accurate and gives a nice crisp bend that you can adjust afterwards. You can apparently press with a round bar if you need a radius rather than an angle (e.g. for knuckle bends).

 

 

 

[brossard]

Tried that, the plier and finger method works better for me.

 

Not saying it is wrong but people tend to use methods that they like.

 

John

Edited May 6, 2020 by brossard

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, StuartMc said:

 

I'm just waiting for my O Gauge track parts to arrive and start working in this scale, but here's a tip I read in an old thread that works great in 4mm and I'm going to try in 7mm: when making bends in rails, a quick way is to to support the track (2 sleepers or scraps of rail works well), place a screwdriver blade on the track in the right place and tap it with a light hammer. Very easy and accurate and gives a nice crisp bend that you can adjust afterwards. You can apparently press with a round bar if you need a radius rather than an angle (e.g. for knuckle bends).

 

 

 

 

Another way of doing this is to strategically replace several of the timbers for copperclad ones, I call this a composite method using the best parts of each building method

 

Next cut small risers 1mm thick for 7mm scale 0.5 mm for 4 mm, better if the risers are as thin or thinner than the width of the chairs.  

 

Solder the risers to the timbers

 

Thread the chairs on to the rail (less the ones on the copperclad timbers

 

Build the turnout as normal, but soldering the rails to the risers. This way the common crossing can be built as per a copperclad turnout, which is much easier.

 

Grind back the risers level with the rail sides and glue the chairs either side, once the timbers are painted no one will be any the wiser

 

If the risers are made from double sided PCB they will be self insulating, if metal strip is used the copperclad timbers would need to be gapped and filled

[Andy Reichert]

Please be aware that many of the techniques mentioned in the thread only apply to when modelling with bullhead rail. As more and more folk model "modern image", the use of flat bottom rail in many situations requires other methods and appropriate templates. Putting a "set" in FB rail for example is most easily done if the base is finely notched. Horizontal bending of model rail cross sections that have wider bases than tops will tend to also bend at a slight angle upwards if no precautions are taken.

 

Andy

[brossard]

5 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

Another way of doing this is to strategically replace several of the timbers for copperclad ones, I call this a composite method using the best parts of each building method

 

Next cut small risers 1mm thick for 7mm scale 0.5 mm for 4 mm, better if the risers are as thin or thinner than the width of the chairs.  

 

Solder the risers to the timbers

 

Thread the chairs on to the rail (less the ones on the copperclad timbers

 

Build the turnout as normal, but soldering the rails to the risers. This way the common crossing can be built as per a copperclad turnout, which is much easier.

 

Grind back the risers level with the rail sides and glue the chairs either side, once the timbers are painted no one will be any the wiser

 

If the risers are made from double sided PCB they will be self insulating, if metal strip is used the copperclad timbers would need to be gapped and filled

 

Again, with deep pockets you can use cast brass chairs.  I bought some to experiment with.  In 7mm the copperclad strip is thinner than the timbers.  All in all I just use wood timbers and leave the paper backing on for strength.

 

John

[Andy Reichert]

An issue we came across in the USA in HO is that the common cheaper copperclad is 1/16" thick (1.6 mm) , whereas scale 7" thickness wood ties in the US are 2mm thick.  And 2mm thick copperclad over here much is more difficult to obtain as well as more expensive. 

 

The most common hand laid track process published in the US model press for soldered  turnout construction is to only use copper clad sleepers at a dozen of so believed strategically necessary positions and much cheaper wood sleepers every where else. That's generally OK for larger rail sizes like code 100 and code 83, but tends too make for weaker bumpy track if using using codes 70, 55 or 40.  If I understand correctly, UK 4mm scale uses code 82 for FB , but a good percentage of the advice in RM Web travels far beyond the UK borders.

 

Andy

[brossard]

Yes Andy.  Timber thickness for 7mm bullhead track is 3mm so that's quite a difference.  You can get away with soldering rail to timbers (appearance wise) in the US because of the spike construction.

 

I built a copperclad 7mm turnout that was intended for fiddle yard use:

 

 

Not the prettiest thing and certainly not suitable for the scenic section.  I used Evergreen strip to bring the height up to the plain track.  It did work though.

 

I built quite a lot of code 100 turnouts on copper clad strip and there is no noticeable height difference between the turnout and plain track connecting to it.

 

The two most common rail heights (Peco) are code 100 and code 75 (at least that's what I've seen).  Most US/Canadian layouts I've seen tend to use Peco code 100 turnouts.  I've never seen a Peco US style code 83 and only occasionally Micro Engineering turnouts (which are very nice).

 

John

Edited May 6, 2020 by brossard

[hayfield]

Rather than look at issues look for solutions, backing the copperclad either with car or plasticard (which comes in myriad thicknesses)  is hardly rocket science or mechanical engineering. Most folk attach home turnouts and crossings and commercial plain track of unequal thickness without any issues

 

At shows the biggest hurdle to overcome is that many have difficulty in making common crossings as sub assemblies, and how many of these subassemblies use copperclad or shim at the correct thickness ? a bit easier in 7mm with the gap being 1 mm much harder in 4mm scale  

Edited May 6, 2020 by hayfield

[brossard]

I think we are mostly on the same page John. 

 

I think trying to make chaired crossings in situ is very difficult.  Making them as sub assemblies seems a sensible approach to me.  But then there are differing opinions I suppose.

 

C&L do thin coppercad strip that can be used on the crossing sub assembly and I place it between the timbers.  If you examine a C&L pre made crossing, you will find they use brass strip.

 

John

[hayfield]

John

 

I agree, its worth looking at all methods and finding one which is best suited to your own skill sets

 

I have in 4 mm scale and it is quite possible in 7 mm scale providing you use plastic timbers (which is what most do with plain track) built a turnout with a soldered vee but using the plastic chairs functionally to hold the wing rails in place with only wire soldered to the rails for electrical bonding. I must emphasise its using plastic timbers so the chairs can be fused to the timbers.

 

As you have said you could also use cast metal chairs the same way by soldering them to copperclad timbers, whilst more expensive than plastic chairs a lot cheaper than buying a ready made common crossing.

 

I sometimes do a similar thing with the first P timber (the first one with a slide chair) using it as the tie bar

 

I gap a copperclad timber, then get 2 cast slide chairs and cut the slide part of the chair from the outer part

 

The 2 slide plates are soldered in the appropriate places on the timber 

The timber is put in its place under the rails, and the switch rails are soldered to the plates, you now have a working tiebar (which is disguised as a timber)

The two outer parts og the slide chairs are now soldered to the stock rails in the correct positions (not to the sleeper/tiebar)

If you wish you can make tier-rods from plastic rod

 

Just think a bit out of the box, especially with the advent of 3D printing which will revolutionise track building in the future

[DavidBird]

6 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi David,

 

Sorry I wasn't clear (9 years ago!).

 

That should have read "If more than 1mm, you can safely clip it again and make another solder fixing".

 

As best I recall, I was asked how many timbers the switch blade should be free to flex on. It needs to be more than the prototype because we need to have a wider model flangeway behind it when open.

 

The idea is to work from the far end towards the tip, making fixings. Keep checking the opened clearance, when it gets down to 1mm at the smallest point, stop making fixings. It can be more than 1mm, but in that case it is likely to be free to flex over a longer distance and may not hold the gauge line. But it is better to be more than 1mm than less.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

Thanks very much, that makes it much clearer now.

[Andy Reichert]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Rather than look at issues look for solutions, backing the copperclad either with car or plasticard (which comes in myriad thicknesses)  is hardly rocket science or mechanical engineering. Most folk attach home turnouts and crossings and commercial plain track of unequal thickness without any issues

 

At shows the biggest hurdle to overcome is that many have difficulty in making common crossings as sub assemblies, and how many of these subassemblies use copperclad or shim at the correct thickness ? a bit easier in 7mm with the gap being 1 mm much harder in 4mm scale  

 

 

I don't see the problem with using inexpensive preformed kit or made up crossing assemblies for hand built turnouts.  Then there is no hurdle. Why make life more difficult? All the angles, flange way widths and even the red herring of vee nose blunting are skill free and exceptionally accurate solutions. Nobody worries that rail is a preformed product, or that Copperclad was never intended or designed as a Railway Modelling material.

 

Andy

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hayfield]

Yes they have their places, but you are limited to the sizes available, and many prefer to see the ballast between the rails. Each to their own