Private Owner Wooden Bodied Coal Wagons: Which liveries made it to nationalization?Wooden Bodied

[Windjabbers]

Private Owner Wooden Bodied Coal Wagons: Which liveries made it to nationalization?

 

I have been collecting some of the Bachman Private Owner Wooden Bodied Coal Wagons with the plan to weather them down to represent wagons that made it into the BR period.

 

First example. Which is OK, but would like to get better on future ones: -

 

 

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I have just been buying wagons with liveries that I thought would look good once treated to heavy weathering.

 

However, Its been pointed out to me that some of the liveries that Bachmann have used were form undertakings that didn’t make it to 1948 (Mergers/Takeovers and the like) and so probablibly didn’t make it to nationalization.

 

Before I start on any more, wondering if people could advise which wagons would be the one’s to uses and which to avoid?

 

Best Wishes

 

David

[David C]

Can't help you about which ones to use and which ones to avoid, but in fact, you need only worry about which companies made it to 1939, not 1948. At the start of WW2, all PO wagons were taken over by the Government and "pooled" so they could be used anywhere and therefore more efficiently.Their owners were eventually paid by HMG on nationalisation - some argue that they were paid far too much for what were very old and basic vehicles.

 

No open wagons were painted during and after the war, so their liveries deteriorated until nationalisation (and indeed well after it).

 

Geoff Kent's 3 volumes on 4mm scale wagons (published by Wild Swan) are invaluable for those of us who are fascinated by wagonry and contain lots of very useful pictures. Wild Swan also do a volume on the 4mm scale coal wagon, which might help.

 

David C

[Pennine MC]

Can't really help with the query David, but I'd be interested to know what transfers you've used for the running number on the wagon pictured?

[asmay2002]

Private Owner Wooden Bodied Coal Wagons: Which liveries made it to nationalization?

 

I have been collecting some of the Bachman Private Owner Wooden Bodied Coal Wagons with the plan to weather them down to represent wagons that made it into the BR period.

 

However, Its been pointed out to me that some of the liveries that Bachmann have used were form undertakings that didn’t make it to 1948 (Mergers/Takeovers and the like) and so probablibly didn’t make it to nationalization.

 

Before I start on any more, wondering if people could advise which wagons would be the one’s to uses and which to avoid?

 

It's quite correct that many operators of PO wagons only lasted for a limited time. There is quite a lot of literature on the subject especially the ten (at the last count) volume series "Private owner wagons" by Keith Turton. These include references to models available, tells you about the history of the company, etc.

 

It's not quite correct to say that no open wagons were painted during the war as there were some new build POs in this period. Thye had very plain liveries (mostly black I think) with small ownership details in the bottom LH corner of the side (similar in layout to the post 1936 big 4 company liveries). You don't often see these modelled but I would expect that these would be most likely to survive to BR times with the livery relatively intact. However the ownership details would have been painted over easily for the BR number patch so not very visually interesting.

[Poor Old Bruce]

Unfortunately, the maunufacturers dont tell us the date of any particular PO wagon they produce. You are left to your own devices to date them yourself. The 'era' system doesn't help serious modellers much either, I found a photo of one of Bachmann's tank wagons (which was designated as 'era 3') which was dated in the last year of that era so the wagon would have spent much more time in that livery in era 4! A bit like 10000 being described as 'era 3' but only the last three weeks of it!

[Windjabbers]

Can't really help with the query David, but I'd be interested to know what transfers you've used for the running number on the wagon pictured?

 

They are by Cambridge Custom Transfers

 

http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/

 

Best Wishes

 

David

[Dave777]

Snippet of info:

 

Most coal wagons from the late 1950's would be in BR livery although a few were in the wartime Ministry of Transport (MOT) livery (black with large white MOT initials on the sides). One point to note for wartime or post-war layouts is that requisitioned ex private owner end-door wagons had a diagonal white stripe painted over the existing livery right across the body, rising to the end with the door.

 

From: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/7-fops/poops2.htm

[Fat Controller]

No date on this photo, but it gives some indication of the state of the remaining original livery:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/6595912807/in/photostream

[petethemole]

The application of "BR livery" on ex-PO and ex-company wagons with worn-out paintwork and bare wood areas often seems to have consisted of no more than a rough spray or brush application of freight grey over the ironwork plus the white diagonal as above and the numbers etc usually on a black panel. Both sprayed and brushed grey sometimes overlapped the wood.

Pete

[petethemole]

Back to the OP, some examples of pooled PO wagons photographed in Southampton Docks during WW2; Melton Mowbray, Moy, Charringtons, Milner Lazenby & Co, M. C., B. O. C., Goldthorpe, Ebbw Vale. Wagons from the major colliery companies and coal factors survived in large numbers.

Pete

[Invicta]

 

It's quite correct that many operators of PO wagons only lasted for a limited time. There is quite a lot of literature on the subject especially the ten (at the last count) volume series "Private owner wagons" by Keith Turton. These include references to models available, tells you about the history of the company, etc.

 

It's not quite correct to say that no open wagons were painted during the war as there were some new build POs in this period. Thye had very plain liveries (mostly black I think) with small ownership details in the bottom LH corner of the side (similar in layout to the post 1936 big 4 company liveries). You don't often see these modelled but I would expect that these would be most likely to survive to BR times with the livery relatively intact. However the ownership details would have been painted over easily for the BR number patch so not very visually interesting.

 

I'd echo the recommendation to take a look at the Keith Turton books- From memory, there was also a series of PO wagon books by Bill Hudson, published in the 80's.

 

Flicking through a couple of the Turton books, one thing I do notice is that the 'Utility' style of wagon painting with small ownership details in the bottom LH corner doesn't seem to have become universal until some time into the war. I don't know how unusual these might be, but there are examples in the books of works photos showing newly-built wagons with fully-lettered sides as late as 1942/43

 

For example a batch of 10 supplied by Gloucester RC&W Co to London coal merchant J.O. Murgatroyd in 1943 (Turton v7, p79), and 10 from the same builder for Baker & Kernick of Cardiff in 1942 (v1 p120)- again fully-lettered, right down to 'Write for Prices' painted on the side doors- although an example from a couple of years later (1944) shows the wartime 'utility' style of lettering. Was there a specific date that the Utility style of painting was imposed?

 

These late fully-liveried wagons do all seem to be black with unshaded lettering, so some simplification of painting seems to have happened before the 'Utility' style took over.

 

There are quite a few examples of wagons in post-war condition, with BR renumbering on eroded and heavily-weathered liveries- although also some in surprisingly good condition- such as an ex-Carlton Collieries Association wagon, photographed in 1953, renumbered as BR's P92928, but with the main lettering of the original livery still very clear, albeit dirty and weathered (v7 p30)

[Pennine MC]

 

They are by Cambridge Custom Transfers

 

http://www.cctrans.freeserve.co.uk/

 

Thanks David, I really should familiarise myself with John's range

 

 

...Flicking through a couple of the Turton books, one thing I do notice is that the 'Utility' style of wagon painting with small ownership details in the bottom LH corner doesn't seem to have become universal until some time into the war. I don't know how unusual these might be, but there are examples in the books of works photos showing newly-built wagons with fully-lettered sides as late as 1942/43

 

 

This is covered I think by Peter Fidczuk in a two-parter in BRILL a few years ago. Cant recall the dates or figures OTTOMH but basically, the initial position was that 'exceptions' were allowed to the utility lettering, but as the takeup was so slow and 'exceptions' were still running at something like 30 -40%, a blanket directive was issued that the utility pattern would be compulsory.

[Invicta]

Thanks Ian- I think I've got the issues of BRILL with the Fidczuk articles in them stored away somewhere, I'll dig them out and take a look.

[Pennine MC]

Thanks Ian- I think I've got the issues of BRILL with the Fidczuk articles in them stored away somewhere, I'll dig them out and take a look.

 

Ho hum - apologies, I may have given you a bum steer. The articles are April/May '04, still very worth a read, but I dobt seem to be able to find that passage; I wonder if it's been in something like a letter to the HMRS Journal, or possibly one of David Larkin's many writings on the subject. The article by Peter does mention some dates though in a caption - 1942 for the initial introduction of the 'utility' lettering, and Jan 1944 for when it was uniformly enforced.

[WIZ]

uptill 1971 courtaullds at coventry still had a few that were being used internally before they went onto the national grid.took a few slides of them on the last day of the line running and would bee happy to send you some copys when i get my scaner back up and running.they had seen better days and had been filled with scrap metal. looking at the markings they once belonged to courtaullds at flint.as the line was then ripped up i asume that the wagons were then scraped

[Pennine MC]

I've today come across an interesting snippet relating to the wartime utility lettering which hopefully might be of interest to those participating here. Browsing Book Law's 'Railways In and Around Nottingham' for no particular reason, I happened upon a pic taken at the coal stage at Nottingham depot in 1955. Thereon was a 21T 'Felix Pole' steel mineral that looked to have unusual lettering; closer inspection revealed that it wasnt a BR 'P' number but what appeared to be the owner's fleet number with an 'SC' (Stephenson Clarke) above it (this firm did operate quantities of the 21T design). Assuming the caption to be correct, this seems quite a late survivor given that steel wagons would have been subject to a stricter painting regime* than wooden ones.

 

Apologies to David for the hijack, I would have put this in the last thread to specifically discuss the steel wagons but even a Google search failed to find it even though I know it's here.

 

* i.e., they had one

[hmrspaul]

I've today come across an interesting snippet relating to the wartime utility lettering which hopefully might be of interest to those participating here. Browsing Book Law's 'Railways In and Around Nottingham' for no particular reason, I happened upon a pic taken at the coal stage at Nottingham depot in 1955. Thereon was a 21T 'Felix Pole' steel mineral that looked to have unusual lettering; closer inspection revealed that it wasnt a BR 'P' number but what appeared to be the owner's fleet number with an 'SC' (Stephenson Clarke) above it (this firm did operate quantities of the 21T design). Assuming the caption to be correct, this seems quite a late survivor given that steel wagons would have been subject to a stricter painting regime* than wooden ones.

 

* i.e., they had one

Dave Larkin has published several articles in the HMRS Journal on "what became of the PO wagons" and quotes a BTC document of 1958 that 3200 wagons had not been renumbered at that time.

 

Paul Bartlett

[Pennine MC]

Thanks Paul, I do have odds and sods of those articles (but evidently not the one with that in). That's quite a surprising quantity for that date, possibly some of the older ones then were never renumbered.

[Fenway Park]

This is a difficult area in that the manufacterers provide a range of very attractive and tempting liveries. Sadly very few of these had a long life. Model Rail this month has an excellent 7mm layout Sutton Parva, but the chances of the Caerbryn PO wagon surviving into late BR days are very slim.

The manufacturers want to sell wagons so they offer them, but very few made it in full livery in BR days but there were many in faded liveries. So photos with dates will help.

[edward66]

Bill Hudson's P.O. wagon books are excellent but are mostly photos of brand new wagons taken by the builder so not much use as a source for weathered wagon pics.

 

Edward

[edward66]

I thoroughly recommend visiting You Tube and look for "Work in Progress and other BT films" , it is about an hour and a half but has a section on Whitemoor marshalling yard in the early 50s in which there are many shots of ex-PO wagons showing how much of their PO livery remains. There are many other shots with PO wagons on some of the other films. It is a fascinating set of films.

[37079]

The book 'The 4mm Coal Wagon' by John Hayes (published by Wild Swan) has a number of useful illustrations of ex-PO wagons in BR days. To answer the OP, a few examples of liveries included in this book that have been covered by Bachmann in the Blue Riband range (albeit with different individual wagon numbers) are:

 

P358126 in Stephenson Clarke livery (lettered SC) illustrated in the book matches Bachmann 37-129 8-plank.

 

P156917 in Cory Brothers livery matches Bachmann 37-185 7-plank with coke rails (which is a current catalogue item).

 

P320501 in Stewart & Lloyds livery matches Bachmann 37-150 and 37-157 8-planks, although I believe both Bachmann models were in grey livery yet the photo notes state red oxide.

 

Various wagons shown in the book in Sheepbridge livery which match a wagon Bachmann produced for a junior set some years ago (although the model lacked black ironwork). I also seem to recall that someone on here had looked for a prototype wagon that matched the detail of the Bachmann model and had failed to find one.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Mike

[Windjabbers]

Thnaks for this, very helpful, as ahve others been. Have picked up a copy of this book, which I will now read.

 

Best Wishes

 

David

http://windjabbers.blogspot.com/

 

The book 'The 4mm Coal Wagon' by John Hayes (published by Wild Swan) has a number of useful illustrations of ex-PO wagons in BR days. To answer the OP, a few examples of liveries included in this book that have been covered by Bachmann in the Blue Riband range (albeit with different individual wagon numbers) are:

 

P358126 in Stephenson Clarke livery (lettered SC) illustrated in the book matches Bachmann 37-129 8-plank.

 

P156917 in Cory Brothers livery matches Bachmann 37-185 7-plank with coke rails (which is a current catalogue item).

 

P320501 in Stewart & Lloyds livery matches Bachmann 37-150 and 37-157 8-planks, although I believe both Bachmann models were in grey livery yet the photo notes state red oxide.

 

Various wagons shown in the book in Sheepbridge livery which match a wagon Bachmann produced for a junior set some years ago (although the model lacked black ironwork). I also seem to recall that someone on here had looked for a prototype wagon that matched the detail of the Bachmann model and had failed to find one.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Mike

[Ravenser]

I've today come across an interesting snippet relating to the wartime utility lettering which hopefully might be of interest to those participating here. Browsing Book Law's 'Railways In and Around Nottingham' for no particular reason, I happened upon a pic taken at the coal stage at Nottingham depot in 1955. Thereon was a 21T 'Felix Pole' steel mineral that looked to have unusual lettering; closer inspection revealed that it wasnt a BR 'P' number but what appeared to be the owner's fleet number with an 'SC' (Stephenson Clarke) above it (this firm did operate quantities of the 21T design). Assuming the caption to be correct, this seems quite a late survivor given that steel wagons would have been subject to a stricter painting regime* than wooden ones.

 

Apologies to David for the hijack, I would have put this in the last thread to specifically discuss the steel wagons but even a Google search failed to find it even though I know it's here.

 

* i.e., they had one

 

So there's a prototype for the frequent appearance of Hornby's 21T steel mineral in S C!

 

A hasty look at Geoff Kent's 4mm Wagon Pt 1 throws up post war photos of weathered wagons from Ocean (predictable - as one of the biggest S Wales companies) , D.A.C , Newstead, Old Silkstone, Sully & Co, Coote & Warren, Fife Coal Co, MOY (a very large E Anglian coal merchant), Oxcroft , Bolsover , and Cory, with text reference to Maltby

 

Geoff Gamble's Railways in Profile 1 -Opens and Hoppers gives Parkhouse, Sutton Heath, and Railways in Profile 9 gives Bolsover,Letchworth Electricity Works, Instone, Carlton, Clay Cross, Suncole, Manners, Swansea Navigation, Fife Coal, and Oxcroft (the two latter are Utility livery)

[Fat Controller]

The Michael Portillo programme on the South Wales valleys had a library shot of an 'Evans Bevan' wagon with a P- number painted on. Evans Bevan were in the Neath Valley, IIRC- I have a feeling they also ran a brewery, which was in the fork of the junction between the Vale of Neath and Neath and Brecon lines.