Hex Frog Juicer queries

[Nigelcliffe]

Juicers (the Frog Juicer device) work by always connecting the frog to one bus wire. If a loco runs onto the frog and causes a short, they swap polarity quickly.

 

( I'm bored with explaining why this might be a bad idea. There are almost always better solutions than relying on short circuits )

 

- Nigel

[roundhouse]

I have been using Frog Juicers on two layouts at shows now and they are 100% reliable unlike various switching mechs I have been using.

 

Yes there is a cost and that's why not all turnouts have been converted yet but thy will be in time.

[Tref67]

Has anyone tried testing their track with a multi-meter with a Hex Frog Juicer in place? I have a short I want to track down, but afraid of using a multi-meter at the moment for fear of damaging the Hex Frog Juicer.

[tender]

I've come across a problem with a the hex frog juicer. It's fairly obscure and probably won't affect most users but I thought i'd post it just in case somebody has a solution without going to switches.

It concerns the use with a PECO asymmetric 3-way point. It's wired up in accordance with Brian-Lambert's DCC guide and for the most part works perfectly, until that is you run a small (Beattie Well Tank) loco across it to the left hand branch. It stalls every time. Their is an addendum in the frog juicer manual which gives the reason for this. It's due to having two frogs in series without a piece of plain connected track between. Not usually a problem as long as the pickup wheels of a loco can straddle the frogs so that there is a return to plain track so the juicer knows which way to switch. The problem with the BWT is that the short wheelbase isn't long enough and gets stuck on the two frogs.

I can't see a solution to this without resorting to mechanical switches to switch power to the frogs of the asymmetric.

 

Can anyone think of a solution?

(I guess the anti frog juicer camp will love this!)

Ray.

[goodmayes]

See http://fast-tracks.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=833 for the regular wiring and a good diagram.

 

So one presumes you can use just  two frog juicer outputs ( one for the whole yellow complex) and double gap the longer yellow curve rail between the two frog groups and wire the resulting short section to the black stock rail.

 

Ted

[tender]

Thanks Ted.

That sounds like a good solution. I need to get another 3-way so will try it out on that before cutting into the one that's already laid just incase it throws up another problem.

 

Ray.

 

Edit - I think you mean brown stock rail.

[250BOB]

Thanks Ted.

That sounds like a good solution. I need to get another 3-way so will try it out on that before cutting into the one that's already laid just incase it throws up another problem.

 

Ray.

 

Edit - I think you mean brown stock rail.

 

Phew.......glad some looks as if they have the answer Ray...!!!     We would never heard the last of it else.???

 

Hope you are keeping well.

 

Off to Glasgow Exbn on saturday....should be fun......probably cold too.

 

Bob

[BRealistic]

Hi Ray

 

If you can remember to do a little update on how you get on, it would be much appreciated. I'm planning to incorporate such a 3-way in my layout... and have already bought it! (Also using frog juicers).

 

Cheers

[tender]

Phew.......glad some looks as if they have the answer Ray...!!!     We would never heard the last of it else.???

 

Hope you are keeping well.

 

Off to Glasgow Exbn on saturday....should be fun......probably cold too.

 

Bob

Yep, I'm surprised the anti brigade haven't picked up on it. Hopefully Ted's solution will steal their muster.

Would love to do Glasgow but a bit far for us to do in a day.

 

 

Hi RayIf you can remember to do a little update on how you get on, it would be much appreciated. I'm planning to incorporate such a 3-way in my layout... and have already bought it! (Also using frog juicers).Cheers

Will update as soon as I get another 3 way, probably pick one up at Preston next week.

 

Ray.

[250BOB]

Yep, I'm surprised the anti brigade haven't picked up on it. Hopefully Ted's solution will steal their muster.

Would love to do Glasgow but a bit far for us to do in a day.

 

Ray.

 

Hi Ray...shall you be going to the LYDCC show in manchester in May.?

[goodmayes]

Actually I'm not particularly pro or con. Assuming there were two stall type point motors involved, I would personally just use two inexpensive RS SPDT relays to power the same frog groups from the +/- 12 v inputs to the point motors, for I suspect, less money

 

I subscribe to the unfashionable theory that, since the mechanical route through the turnout is pre-determined by the direction the points are already thrown to, you don't need to buy extra electronics to figure that out again for you in duplicate. .  Most people don't want to run their trains through wrongly set points.

 

Where you DO absolutely need those smarts, is the relatively rare situation, when you are running into a trailing (working) sprung point. Then the turnout doesn't already know which route the train is arriving from, and so the electronics correctly works it out instead.

 

Ted

[tender]

Hi Ray...shall you be going to the LYDCC show in manchester in May.?

Thanks for the reminder Bob, just put it in my diary.

 

Ray.

[essofal]

 hi   I was tempted  to use  Frog  juicers to spare  the installation, wiring and fine tuning (n gauge layout ) of many switches   ;  I agree with the common rule to avoid shorts,  not  only  for theoretical of ethical reasons  but because  shorts,  (especially  2amps one ) create  sparks and  micro holes on the metal surface of both wheel and rail ... 

They are not easy to see , but they do exist , dont you fear to deteriorate your  loco wheels and current pick up abilities in the long run ?  ( I was always told that those micro holes where ideal silent dirt gatherers  and  perfect isolation spots )   Could this be an issue to consider ?   . 

[250BOB]

hi   I was tempted  to use  Frog  juicers to spare  the installation, wiring and fine tuning (n gauge layout ) of many switches   ;  I agree with the common rule to avoid shorts,  not  only  for theoretical of ethical reasons  but because  shorts,  (especially  2amps one ) create  sparks and  micro holes on the metal surface of both wheel and rail ... 

They are not easy to see , but they do exist , dont you fear to deteriorate your  loco wheels and current pick up abilities in the long run ?  ( I was always told that those micro holes where ideal silent dirt gatherers  and  perfect isolation spots )   Could this be an issue to consider ?   .

Certainly I have never had any such issues in the 3 or 4 years I have been using frog juicers, not to affect the running in any way shape or form.

I'm an advocate of using them...but others are not preferring to use switches.

Bob

[Junctionmad]

A short circuit detection circuit is an extremely common piece of electronics. Electronic circuitry can respond well before any issues arise. In that regard frog juicers don't actually detect shorts, they merely detect current flowing above that would otherwise occur running the loco.

 

I mean the loco motor is as much a " short " circuit as a frog juicer

 

Discussions about not " liking " short circuit detection are just quite frankly voodoo electronics.

 

Otherwise I'd have to admit that I don't " like " hundreds of power circuit protection circuits I've designed over the years !!!

[ColinK]

hi   I was tempted  to use  Frog  juicers to spare  the installation, wiring and fine tuning (n gauge layout ) of many switches   ;  I agree with the common rule to avoid shorts,  not  only  for theoretical of ethical reasons  but because  shorts,  (especially  2amps one ) create  sparks and  micro holes on the metal surface of both wheel and rail ... 

They are not easy to see , but they do exist , dont you fear to deteriorate your  loco wheels and current pick up abilities in the long run ?  ( I was always told that those micro holes where ideal silent dirt gatherers  and  perfect isolation spots )   Could this be an issue to consider ?   .

 

I've been using Frog Juicers for three years and they have worked brilliantly, far more reliable than frog polarity switches. My layout includes two Peco three way points (and they are joined together) and has been exhibited several times. Delighted with them.

[RFS]

Some points to consider

 

- HFJs come in units of 6.  So if you need an odd number of ports (eg 13) then it can become expensive.

- Polarity switches on Seep and Peco point motors are unreliable.  Built-in switches with slow-motion point motors such as Tortoise and Cobalt are extremely reliable.

- One solenoid motor + HFJ port costs the same as 1 slow-motion motor, and the problem of HFJs coming in blocks of 6 does not arise.

- Your DCC command station must not react to a short faster than the HFJ. And if you have a PSX circuit breaker too then all 3 may need to have trip speeds coordinated.

 

As you probably gather, I'm a fan of using Tortoise motors combined with Electrofrog points that have been modified for frog polarity switching together with bonding of stock and closure rails. The second switch on the Tortoise is also useful in places, especially for some signal controls. I did start with Seep and then Peco, but once I'd tried Tortoises I've never looked back.

 

But that's my layout and everyone is free to do what suits them best.

[250BOB]

Some points to consider

 

- HFJs come in units of 6.  So if you need an odd number of ports (eg 13) then it can become expensive.

- Polarity switches on Seep and Peco point motors are unreliable.  Built-in switches with slow-motion point motors such as Tortoise and Cobalt are extremely reliable.

- One solenoid motor + HFJ port costs the same as 1 slow-motion motor, and the problem of HFJs coming in blocks of 6 does not arise.

- Your DCC command station must not react to a short faster than the HFJ. And if you have a PSX circuit breaker too then all 3 may need to have trip speeds coordinated.

 

As you probably gather, I'm a fan of using Tortoise motors combined with Electrofrog points that have been modified for frog polarity switching together with bonding of stock and closure rails. The second switch on the Tortoise is also useful in places, especially for some signal controls. I did start with Seep and then Peco, but once I'd tried Tortoises I've never looked back.

 

But that's my layout and everyone is free to do what suits them best.

We all like different things and have different approaches, I have a hex frog juicer that does more than six frogs.......I think it does 8 from memory, just a case of working things out and it works well, it caught me out once in 4 years....I'll settle for that.

It suits me more because I cant use sub baseboard point motors.

[Budgie]

A short circuit detection circuit is an extremely common piece of electronics. Electronic circuitry can respond well before any issues arise. In that regard frog juicers don't actually detect shorts, they merely detect current flowing above that would otherwise occur running the loco.

So why hasn't someone come up with a frog juicer that works on DC as well as DCC?

[Budgie]

But they could allow you to power it from a 9v. battery, like they do with the RRampMeter when using it on DC.

[Junctionmad]

Theres no technical reason , you couldn't design a frog juicer for DC, its a bit more complicated and it would have to be externally powered, the basic principle is the same. there no issue over losing speed control , all you are in fact doing is emulating the frog switch on the likes of a cobalt  in hardware, and detecting which way to switch it based on current flow to the track in question , there as sensing issues at low voltage but not insurmountable 

[Colin_McLeod]

Some points to consider

 

- HFJs come in units of 6.  So if you need an odd number of ports (eg 13) then it can become expensive.

.

Not necessarily. Frogs that will never be used at the same time can share a juicer output. One section of my hidden sidings contains 13 points and only one hex frog juicer.

[roundhouse]

I have now fitted these to three layouts that are taken to shows (Banbury and Santa Barbara which use the same fiddleyard and Dobris).

 

I have a mixture of six way, two way and single units

 

So far the juicers have worked very well.

 

I would love to be bale to use slow action motors with their more reliable switches for polarity change but my board construction is to shallow for them. If I were to make deeper frames then I wouldn't get the layouts in the car (along with 4  people). SEEP and Peco switching is not reliable enough at shows although some batches of SEEP solenoid have performed better than others.

 

Adding Juicers is a more expensive option short term but I tend to buy them a few at a time as I wire up a layout.

 

EDIT

 

The only wheel damage I have had was on turnouts prior to fitting the Juicers when a piece of rolling stock has gone through a turnout not set the correct way.

[essofal]

 

 

I mean the loco motor is as much a " short " circuit as a frog juicer 

yes but the little difference is that  the 2 amps are generally more progressively " introduced " trough the rails  in the motor ( you  start with little power ) and not 2 amps all of a sudden, which makes a difference, the sparks and microholes created are proportional to power intensity...., ,  however  there seems to be  a general agreement over there upon the fact that it is NOT an issue .. And all HFJ users  seem to be satisfied of the reliability of the system.  I'm happy to be reassured about that;;    Do someone know  alternatives or competitors to the hex frog juicer ? it seems to be the unique device of its kind on the market ..  

[Ron Ron Ron]

..... HFJs come in units of 6. ....

 

 

I can see where you've gone wrong in that short part of your opening line.

 

HFJ, i.e. Hex Frog Juicers.  

The Hex part of that means 6.

The product (made by Tam Valley Depot) is called a "Frog Juicer".

 

As already pointed out, they come in three versions, with 1, 2 or 6 outputs/channels.

Mono, Dual and Hex, respectively.

The Hex is the 6 output/channel version.

 

Saying "HFJs come in units of 6" is like saying a twin pack of X comes with 2, or a triple pack of Y comes with 3.

 

 

.