GWR 8 Coupled Tank Engines

[The Stationmaster]

I hope I'm putting this in the most sensible place because it is about the prototype and in view of current rumours it might be useful for those interested in these locos to know a bit more about some of the detail variations that they came with or ended up with - and by the time this is posted it will be past midnight.

 

 

The story of the GWR’s 8 coupled tanks began with

2-8-0T 4201 in 1910 but from the current modeller’s viewpoint it is probably better to take 1930 as a starting point because by then many basic details had become settled and were to remain for the rest of their working lives while the final - and probably most visually obvious - differences were beginning to emerge.

 

So my starting point is the 42XX which by 1929 seem to have arrived at consistent height chimneys although safety valve covers still came in two heights and had received the final rear bunker backward extension which in turn required a distance piece to move the bufferbeam back 6 inches. The final batches of 42XX, with one or two individual exceptions, and also locos up to 5204 plus 4200 were all built in this condition (according to the RCTS history some locos in the 4286-4299 batch of Lot 220 reportedly had lengthened frames at the rear instead of the distance pieces).

 

5205, in 1923, was the first loco of what was recognised as a separate class and it came with the distinguishing feature of outside steampipes plus the less obvious feature of an increase of cylinder bore to 19 inches. Otherwise the first batch (5205-14) of the variant were no different from the 42XX and included the distance piece behind the rear bufferbeam.

However from 5215 onwards the engines had lengthened rear frames, and no distance piece- a pattern continued in all subsequent 2-8-0T construction.

A more noticeable change came with Lot 266 (5275-94) of 1930 which saw the introduction of a step in the running plate over the cylinders and the use of a curved drop end instead of the square drop end of all earlier locos. A further, very visible, change on this batch was the motion bar cross plate which changed from the distinctive large radius Churchward pattern used on all previous locos in the class to the much smaller and tighter radius Collett pattern with a flanged edge. The picture below shows the Collett pattern - albeit on a 41XX -

 

Meanwhile from 1931 some older 42XX locos received new cylinders and emerged from works with outside steampipes thus mimicking the appearance of the 5205-14 batch.

 

By the delivery of 5294 in 1930 the two sub-classes could be seen with several significant differences, viz -

Original 42XX with distance pieces,

Original 42XX with lengthened rear frames and no distance piece (limited number of these).

42XX with new cylinders and outside steam pipes but no other changes.

5205-14 with outside steam pipes and the rear end distance piece.

5215-74 with outside steam pipes and lengthened rear frames (and no distance piece).

All the above had square drop ends and the Churchward pattern, large radius, motion bar cross frame. The square drop end is illustrated below -

 

 

5275-94 with curved front drop end, stepped running plate over the cylinders and Collett pattern motion cross bar plate.

This made a total of six variants although two were to all intents and purposes indistinguishable from aeachother (i.e. 5205-14 and renewed cylinder 42XX) in reality giving only 5 significant variations in appearance.

 

To this should be added a couple of other changes which took place on the 2-8-0Ts as they went through works. These were the addition of cab shutters - applied to all engines up to 5274 between 1931 and 1936 (except 5264 which didn’t receive shutters until conversion to a 2-8-2T). The recessed bunker top introduced on Lot 266 in 1930 spread quite slowly to other engines with a few remaining unaltered until after the war. The addition of the recessed fender above the bunker top started in 1938 and by 1946 only one loco was noted as unaltered. The first illustration below shows the recessed bunker, and no fender, on a 72XX while the second view shows a fender (but not on an 8 coupled tank -

 

 

 

Another, quite radical, move was the decision to take the final batch of 5205s (i.e. 5275-94) which had been in store since new and convert them into 2-8-2Ts as replacements for the ageing 2-6-0 ‘Aberdares’. The added axle and extra length allowed increased coal and water capacity thus suiting them for long distance working, and in the process produced the GWR’s heaviest engine with the same coal capacity as the 4,000 gallon tender! The conversion programme produced yet another class with variants. The first, 1934, batch of

2-8-2Ts (7200-7219) had the curved drop end, stepped running plate and Collett pattern motion cross bar plate, as partly illustrated below -

 

 

 

But the next step in expanding the 72XX class used 5255-74 so 7220-39 appeared with the original style of square drop end, straight running plate and the larger, Churchward pattern, motion bar cross frame. Finally just to add a bit of spice the last batch of 72XX engines (7240-53) were rebuilt from members of the original 42XX class and in the process received new cylinders - complete with the curved drop end and stepped running plate - but retaining the Churchward pattern of motion bar cross frame, which is illustrated here -

 

 

And just to round out the story, due to wartime traffic needs, another batch of the 5205 class were built in 1940 to replace some of those converted to 2-8-2Ts. This batch, numbered 5255-64, were built to the same arrangement as the earlier 5275 series, i.e. curved drop ends, stepped running plate and Collett pattern motion cross bar frame.

 

So by mid 1940 there were two variants of 42XX – the majority with the rear distance piece plus a few with extended rear frames. Plus those which had renewed cylinders and outside steam pipes. And further variety was added from 1943 when subsequent cylinder renewals incorporated the curved drop end and stepped running plate originally introduced with 5275 (but no change to their Churchward pattern motion bar cross frame).

 

Similarly by mid 1940 there were three variants of the 5205 class – the originals with square drop end etc plus rear distance piece, subsequent batches without the rear distance piece, plus the final batch with curved drop end and stepped running plate etc. To add to this some 5205s later received curved drop ends plus the stepped running plate (but again retained the Churchward pattern of motion bar cross bar frame) thus creating a fourth variant in this class.

 

And this process also extended to the second batch of 72XX at least some of which also received curved drop ends and the stepped running plate thus bringing them into line - appearance wise - with the third batch.

 

Finally, apart from a few examples altered between 1938 and 1943 the upper lamp iron on the 2-8-0Ts was relocated to the smokebox door in the years after 1945 and the same was done on the 72xx from 1944 onwards But in both cases the work was apparently not complete by the mid 1950s and examples could still be found with the bracket on top of the smokebox. Similarly despite renewals and updating many 42XX survived until withdrawal with the original footplating and inside steam pipes.

 

 

Thus the first advice for modellers is a repeat of the old adage - look for dated photos of the loco(s) you wish to model. And at least you now know most of what to look for (if there are any errors in the above they are mine and not the fault of the RCTS history from which much of the information was drawn).

 

Now we’ll consider, in ignorance of exactly what is planned, the options which appear to be facing Hornby. With a number of preserved locos available it seems likely they will have started from there as they probably represent the best sources of information but they are all in something akin to ‘final’ condition in respect of things like recessed bunkers/fenders and safety valves. Beyond that the still extant 42XX examples have either inside or outside steam pipes while all except one (which is ‘undergoing restoration’ in any case) have the square drop end. As a guess I reckon they will go for an inside steam pipe loco and 4277 would give them a useful basis for a nice marketable faux GWR liveried example as well.

 

Equally there is some choice with the 3 remaining 5205s but only one (at Didcot as a donor for various projects) has the square drop end. The alternatives both have the curved drop end and steeped running plate of later alterations to those numbered below 5255 and the obvious example to go for is 4277’s stablemate on the Torbay line, again one that can be given a ‘pretty’ livery to appeal to a wider market but 5224 on the Mid Hants is an equally obvious target.

 

The choice for the 72XX is, fortunately in some respects, much more limited with Didcot’s 7202 the likeliest candidate and of course a first batch example. 7200 at Quainton is - I believe - in much less complete condition. The wild card is 7229 ‘unrestored’ on the East Lancs but apparently still boasting a square drop end.

 

Anyway if my three speculatives form the subjects chosen by Hornby the modeller will be well served albeit those thinking pre-war might have to have a go at the bunker recesses and fender (if it is present on any example chosen by Hornby. For us modelling later times the 5205 example will do for both that class and some 42XXs – a useful choice. And we can but hope that Hornby’s detail research will be as good as some of their efforts with the ‘Castle’ and 28XX.

 

It will be interesting too to see the extent of compromises made to deal with model railway curvature – especially as the 72XX had a reputation for a proneness to derail on tighter curves in real life, curves which of course would make almost any model railway curvature look ridiculous.

[D605Eagle]

Thanks for posting that Mike, very informative. Forwards it to Hornby? (probably way too late for that mind you!) It always makes me sad every time I see 7229s sad remains at Bury. Seemed that it had quite alot of work done to it some years ago, but its well abandoned now.

[roythebus]

I gather 4353 is at Rolvenden now, undergoing a complete restoration.

[Allegheny1600]

Hi Mike,

A very timely summary of these (IMHO) wonderful engines, thank you!

I was all but ready to give up on British 00 (preferring 0!) but the possibility of an rtr model of one of these has given me second thoughts. I was always a sucker for 8 coupled engines anyway and these are to me, an extreme temptation.

Cheers,

John E.

[The Stationmaster]

I'm slightly disappointed to see that Hornby's website prototype pics illustrating their intentions show a 5205 from the 5255-64 batch although that might well be the first pic they came across and it's no guide to what they will actually make. No doubt time well tell.

[The Stationmaster]

Here's a pic I forgot to include in my original post :- a 42XX in (original) 5205 Class condition (i.e. as 5205-14). This is 4247 when it was at the South Devon Railway (Buckfastleigh) a couple of years ago, it is now on the Bodmin & Wenford I believe.

 

[Horsetan]

5224 and 5239 are surviving examples of the 5205 "curved drop and stepped running plate" variant. The Worsley Works "scratch-aid" etches cater for this variant.

[The Stationmaster]

5224 and 5239 are surviving examples of the 5205 "curved drop and stepped running plate" variant. The Worsley Works "scratch-aid" etches cater for this variant.

As noted in my original post - except I didn't give the numbers of course. Those two, which are the only surviving (non-donor) 5205s, are in that condition but have the original pattern of of motion bar cross frame. Converting a moulding from one variety of motion bar cross frame to the other would, I suspect, require quite a bit of 'shaving' and chopping as the motion bar cross frames would seem fairly certain to be moulded as part of the tank front ends and the footstep arrangements also varied (which probably doesn't show too well in my pics?).

 

Anyway there remains the hope that Hornby will choose one of these survivors for detail research and measurement in which case they would be producing the most flexible variant of the lot in terms of scope for renumbering plus gaining the opportunity to do one in the 'prettified' Paignton & Dartmouth current livery (with nameplate) which could appeal to a wider market area.

[lonesome_whistle]

It will be interesting too to see the extent of compromises made to deal with model railway curvature – especially as the 72XX had a reputation for a proneness to derail on tighter curves in real life, curves which of course would make almost any model railway curvature look ridiculous.

 

Very useful summary, Mike. The photographs are very useful, I especially like the one of the motion bracket taken without the boiler present.

 

If Hornby's last few Western releases hint at what we might get then I have high hopes for these models but you're right to raise concerns over compromises due to the long coupled wheelbase (over 3feet longer than a 28XX!) The real '72's not only derailed everywhere but flexed to the point where they frequently broke their water balance pipes - hard to replicate in 4mm scale. If I were the operating superintendent of my railway I wouldn't have them on the property but I'm not and they're an essential part of the scene I wish to create so I'll be buying one or two for sure. Might be challenging in P4 - perhaps I'll need to put up with the prototypical derailments!!

 

Tony

[brianthesnail96]

Thanks very much for posting this- the history of the Heavy Freight tanks is clearly much more complicated than I had realised!

 

Have a definite soft spot for these and am very much looking forwards to getting my hands on a couple (grubby BR black please...)

[Brinkly]

Very useful information Mike, thank you for posting. You really should forward it to Hornby just in case!

 

Regards,

 

Nick

[The Stationmaster]

Very useful information Mike, thank you for posting. You really should forward it to Hornby just in case!

Regards,

Nick

I sincerely hope that their own research has been up to the mark on this sort of stuff Nick - especially as Hattons are showing some of these locos for 'First Quarter'. I don't know how they do their research but apart from perhaps lacking my library pile of books and ageing magazines all it takes is a bit of time and the basic details of all the extant locos can be established fairly quickly off the 'net; the knowing 'what to look for' as opposed to the 'knowing where to look' does require a bit more work and, ideally of course, access to the right books but going through old photos does help to give a steer.

 

Anyway we'll all know how cute they've been when their efforts appear and it will be interesting to see if they've made the best choices for suiting the Pre-War period as well.

[Guest Belgian]

It would be interesting to have a summary of where these machines worked: were they red or double-red route restriction? As a Southern modeller I understand that the 2-8-2Ts ran on the South Wales coal trains at least to Salisbury and I have seen some references to Eastleigh as well. Presumably with the massive coal capacity they could work as far as the tender engines albeit with more frequent water stops.

 

JE

[bike2steam]

It would be interesting to have a summary of where these machines worked: were they red or double-red route restriction? As a Southern modeller I understand that the 2-8-2Ts ran on the South Wales coal trains at least to Salisbury and I have seen some references to Eastleigh as well. Presumably with the massive coal capacity they could work as far as the tender engines albeit with more frequent water stops.

 

JE

 

Indeed STJ allocated examples ran down to Salisbury. And to London on occasions but rare after WW2 as more 2-8-0's became available.

After the new chord was put in place at Stratford Race Course a Banbury allocated 2-8-2T was tried on the S&MJ, but problems arose because of the rear radial truck derailing, so after one attempt the idea was abandoned

My memories of the class were on iron ore trains from Banbury to Stewarts & Lloyds steel works at Bilston up Hatton Bank, I have 2 kit built 4mm model examples powered by Mashima 1628 motors, it will be interesting to see how they compare with the forthcoming (?) Hornby example.

[The Stationmaster]

The 2-8-0Ts were always predominantly South Wales engines and very much Great Western sheds rather than those inherited from or replacing sheds of the other Pre-Group companies which had gone into the GW but according to the RCTS history they did some work out of South Wales both towards London and over the N&W (North & West0. Probably the best know allocations outside South Wales were the St Blazey ones (usually one or two) specifically there for clay trains. They were allocated at various times to other English sheds but normally only one or two locos although Swindon had 3 at one time. And they were tried as replacement bankers on the Lickey.

 

The 72XX were rather different in that as, officially, replacements for the Aberdares they did quite a lot of long distance work to the London area (mainly pre-war) and most enduringly on the Radyr-Salisbury coal train and other coal trains over that route. Small numbers were allocated out of South Wales over the years with Oxford and Oxley being relatively long term homes although they were also at Newton Abbott for a while and Didcot and Banbury also had one off and on over the years. I suspect that one reason why they never spread too much beyond South Wales was not just lack of suitable work but their unpopularity with some footplatemen.

 

4200 - 5204 were BR Power Class 7F and all the others (incuding the 72XX rebuilt from 42XX) were classed 8F. All were 'Red' as far as route restrictions went but of course on top of that there were the usual local prohibitions and exceptions and these varied between the 2-8-0Ts and the 2-8-2Ts with the latter being barred from some places where the former were permitted. Very easy to forget for those of us who did see them that the 72XX were very big engines - around 1ft longer than an A4 and over 3ft longer than a 9F!

 

Edit re passenger work - I have found photographic evidence of 42XX working excursion traffic (including two which got to Weston-Super-Mare) as well as occasional instances of locos assisting failures. And of course they are involved in passenger working on preserved lines but undoubtedly at far more comfortable speeds than they had to manage while on the mainline.

[lapford34102]

It would be interesting to have a summary of where these machines worked

 

They ran to Weymouth on the STJ freights regularly enough to acquire a reputation. They weren't liked at all that much apparently.

 

Stu

[Karhedron]

Worth noting that the 72xxs were occasionally allocated to St Blazey for china clay work in place of the more usual 42/52xx.

[Horsetan]

It would be interesting to have a summary of where these machines worked

 

They ran to Weymouth on the STJ freights regularly enough to acquire a reputation.....

 

....and were no doubt banned from the Quay branch!

[buffalo]

The 2-8-0Ts were always predominantly South Wales engines and very much Great Western sheds...

For those of us with earlier interests, it is perhaps worth noting that, other than those at Swindon works, all of 4201-85 were at South Welsh sheds in 1921. In 1934, 4200 was at St Philip's Marsh, but all others (4201-99, 5200-94) not in the Swindon works or stock shed were still in South Wales.

 

So when did they start to escape? It would be helpful if folk could give dates as well as locations when discussing where they worked.

 

Nick

 

ps. information from the two Wild Swan Great Western Railway Locomotive Allocations books by Pocock & Harrison.

[lonesome_whistle]

Nick,

 

RCTS pt 9 tells us that during the twenties Westbury had one and two were sent to Laira about 1924. About four years later they reached St Blazey. And there is mention of 4238 as Paddington pilot in 1931!

 

Tony

[The Stationmaster]

So when did they start to escape? It would be helpful if folk could give dates as well as locations when discussing where they worked.

Nick

Apart from one of those books the only pre BR period allocation information I have is in the RCTS history. That gives 'some' going to the Cardiff Valleys Division (i.e. the ex Taff Vale sheds) in 1922 - but never used extensively on that Division, one observed at Paddington on ecs in 1931. During the 1920s there was one at Westbury (for banking??) and two went to Laira in 1924 and reached St Blazey c.1928 - and that's all it has to say for pre 1939. However photos indicate that South Wales 2-8-0Ts were definitely working into the Bristol area in the 1930s and this seems compatible with RCTS history comments about them working as far north as Shrewsbury and eastwards to the London area - in all likelihood they were probably driven by men who had fired on 0-60Ts doing the same work a few decades earlier as the GWR was always much enamoured of long distance tank engine working on mineral trains.

[buffalo]

Thanks, Tony. I've just read the relevant part of the RCTS volume since posting. I then went back and checked the 1934 allocation list and found that I missed 4215 which was at St Blazey The one at Westbury will be my excuse and for our northern friends, there was always 5225 at the Stockton & Darlington centenary bash.

 

Nick

 

edit: thanks, Mike. Does anyone have any idea of which ones were at Westbury or in the Bristol area?

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks, Tony. I've just read the relevant part of the RCTS volume since posting. I then went back and checked the 1934 allocation list and found that I missed 4215 which was at St Blazey The one at Westbury will be my excuse and for our northern friends, there was always 5225 at the Stockton & Darlington centenary bash.

 

Nick

Ah but the latter was in fully lined passenger livery

[Rivercider]

Rail Centres Bristol by Colin Maggs 1981 edition,

shows that the St Phillips Marsh allocation for 8th Jan 1938 included 4221.

 

There is also a May 1959 photo of 5215 on a mixed freight through Stapleton Road.

 

cheers

[Coach bogie]

Edit re passenger work - I have found photographic evidence of 42XX working excursion traffic (including two which got to Weston-Super-Mare) as well as occasional instances of locos assisting failures. And of course they are involved in passenger working on preserved lines but undoubtedly at far more comfortable speeds than they had to manage while on the mainline.

 

Santa brought a copy of Western Region Steam 1950-65 and page 88 contains a pic of 7217 hauling an excursion train from Swansea to Weston Super Mare in 1957. 7250 is in the loco siding having also worked an excursion the same day.

 

 

Apologies if you covered it and I missed it - in addition to the larger cylinders fitted the 4200 rebuild batch 7240-53 also had increased water capacity to 2,700gallons from 2,500 gallons and reduced coal from 6 tons to 5 tons.

 

Thanks for all the research information. Filled some gaps.

 

Mike Wiltshire