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Slaters 6-wheeled milk tank wagons


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Having already hijacked one thread (David Siddall's one on United Dairies liveries under 'Prototype questions') and at risk of hijacking another (rsv1000r’s one on Peco mineral wagons), I thought I should start a new thread specifically on the Slaters' 7mm 6-wheeled milk tank wagons.

 

My original question was

 

I'm also interested in building one or two of the 7mm Slaters 6 wheel milk tank wagons but does anybody know which ones are suitable for a 1960s/70s WR layout?

 

Slaters do LMS 6-wheeled 3000 gallon (Slaters ref 7073), LMS 6-wheeled 2000 gallon (ref 7074) and GWR 6-wheeled 3000 gallon. Looking at Paul's (wonderful) site, those wagons which were still in 'milk service' appear to be from diagrams 023, 039, 042, 056, 063 and 065, built between 1927 and 1951. Interestingly, there are also ex-LMS 3000 gallon wagons with WR numbers, such as W44004 and also a 2000 gallon wagon.

 

Does that mean (he asks hopefully), that any of the three Slaters wagons can be used for the WR 1960s/early 1970s period and mix-and-matched?”

 

 

Paul Bartlett kindly replied

 

Yes, others know much more about this traffic, but with the reduction in services the better vehicles would have been moved around to different services.

 

These were carriages and not wagons - so when LMS ones were moved to the WR they appear to have been repainted with new prefix - W to show the operating region - just as carriages had alterations in their prefixes and suffixes when their Region altered. Which doesn't explain why those with a B prefix kept that - despite potentially having a number overlap with mineral wagons!

 

I believe the St. Ivel repainting was earlier than the mid 1970s - although a request for dates on those published in the HMRS Journal a while ago has gone unanswered - they appear to be very newly painted at the time.

 

On one of my visits to Staines Central yard in 1969 there was a rake of milk tank in there (as

http://PaulBartlett....tanks/e2e1a997b ) .My (railwayman) dad explained the tanks were to be taken away for refurbishment. I thought I had photos of some of these, but I cannot find them ( I remember them with the strapping all loose etc - quite a strange sight.

 

I'm aware from Martyn's post under the Peco mineral wagon thread that he is already building a couple of these wagons and as he says, there were wide variations in these wagons. Looking at Paul Bartlett's website shows a large number of diagrams, including some built in BR days based on pre-nationalisation diagrams. A veritable minefield!

 

So, it appears from Paul's post I quoted above that all three of the Slaters' wagons (LMS 2000 and 3000 gallon and GWR 3000 wagon) could be used on a 1960s/early 70s WR layout. Unless, somebody know different ........ And, what about milk tank wagons on other regions?

 

 

Stephen

 

P.S. Bearing in mind site protocols, I hope nobody objects to me starting a new thread on this subject although some of the points have been covered elsewhere.

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As Paul mentions, the best available ones were used during the period your looking at.

 

So you ended up with LMS, GWR, LNER, SR and BR variants. Probably the most common one on the Western region after the BR variants, was probably the LMS variants. It is good if you can work from actual photos as their were several chassis and tank changes, along with other modifications over time, including the lagging over the top of the straps, which can be represented with plasticard.

 

Liveries were mostly cleanish or more likely grimy silver for the period your looking at, with either "Express Dairiy", "United Dairies", or "Unigate Creameries" plates fitted, some also didn't have plates. The earliest photo I have seen of the "St Ivel" livery is 1970 although it may of come in the year before.There was also the odd wagons still in early liveries going around in 1970, including royal blue "Express dairy" and pale blue "MMB", one was painted up in red livery circa 1969/70, I don't know much about this apart from seeing it on some video footage and a distant photo of it entering Exeter St Davids, but it could well be the one on Paul Bartlett's site.

 

I don't know how many you plan to build, but for the period you're doing, the majority would be BR, along with some LMS variants (which could definitely include a LMS 2000 gallon version), then perhaps a GWR, LNER or SR to add too. Although not my cup of tea, at least one GWR twin tank was still working out of South Wales in 1970.

 

This company do other variants of the milk tank in 7mm, http://www.powsides.co.uk/ including BR ones.

 

And some I did a few years ago using the Slaters LMS 3000 gallon tank.

 

post-6909-0-13821000-1325640424.jpg

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post-6909-0-60152600-1325640467.jpg

post-6909-0-35762000-1325640486.jpg

Edited by Trevor H
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Hardly a hijacking dear boy... more like you just managed to ask all the questions I didn't know I needed the answers to yet! I'll be following avidly. One (several) of these are on my shopping list and they'll have to run through my turnouts so the first one aint that far away ;-)

 

And ooo errr! Look at those 'Baby Warships'!

 

D

Edited by David Siddall
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Hardly a hijacking dear boy... more like you just managed to ask all the questions I didn't know I needed the answers to yet! I'll be following avidly. One (several) of these are on my shopping list and they'll have to run through my turnouts so the first one aint that far away ;-)

 

And ooo errr! Look at those 'Baby Warships'!

 

D

 

Hi Dave,

 

These 6 wheelers are quite forgiving through turnouts if you look carefully there is no brake gear on the middle axles, so you can easily put a bit of play in them. I know they go through Peco turnouts without problems.

 

ATB, Martyn.

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These 6 wheelers are quite forgiving through turnouts if you look carefully there is no brake gear on the middle axles, so you can easily put a bit of play in them. I know they go through Peco turnouts without problems.

 

Thanks for that reassurance Martyn, (...breathes major sigh of relief), my minimum radius turnouts will be A5s - just a tad tighter than Peco's standard 'medium'. Inspired by Hemyock to justify its post-Beeching survival my fictitious branch would have needed a major rethink if that hadn't been the case.

 

Now according to the photos I've amassed it looks like it would it be acceptable to turn out a couple or three Slaters models in 'silver' (for want of a better word) livery with United Dairies plates. If so... anyone know where I can get the plates?

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As Paul mentions, the best available ones were used during the period your looking at.

 

So you ended up with LMS, GWR, LNER, SR and BR variants. Probably the most common one on the Western region after the BR variants, was probably the LMS variants. It is good if you can work from actual photos as their were several chassis and tank changes, along with other modifications over time, including the lagging over the top of the straps, which can be represented with plasticard.

 

Liveries were mostly cleanish or more likely grimy silver for the period your looking at, with either "Express Dairiy", "United Dairies", or "Unigate Creameries" plates fitted, some also didn't have plates. The earliest photo I have seen of the "St Ivel" livery is 1970 although it may of come in the year before.There was also the odd wagons still in early liveries going around in 1970, including royal blue "Express dairy" and pale blue "MMB", one was painted up in red livery circa 1969/70, I don't know much about this apart from seeing it on some video footage and a distant photo of it entering Exeter St Davids, but it could well be the one on Paul Bartlett's site.

 

I don't know how many you plan to build, but for the period you're doing, the majority would be BR, along with some LMS variants (which could definitely include a LMS 2000 gallon version), then perhaps a GWR, LNER or SR to add too. Although not my cup of tea, at least one GWR twin tank was still working out of South Wales in 1970.

 

This company do other variants of the milk tank in 7mm, http://www.powsides.co.uk/ including BR ones.

 

And some I did a few years ago using the Slaters LMS 3000 gallon tank.

Trevor

 

Thanks for your very helpful post and the photos - loved those class 22s and the close-ups of the milk tankers. Very nice.

 

I'd seen Powsides wagons before but didn't realise that they did so a variety of 6-wheeled milk wagons. I particularly like the BR(M) wagon (lot 1640 from 1950) with the end filler and ladder. Would provide a nice contrast to the Slaters' wagon. However, any mention of "etched brass construction" and I run away and hide in a dark corner! Think I need to stick to the Slaters wagons for the moment.

 

My other problem is that my time period is fairly wide - 1964 (so I can run my 74xx pannier) up to about 1971 (if only to run my early BR blue Hymek) - hasten to add, I won't be running the pannier and the blue Hymek at the same time! So my wagons need to be in paint schemes and lettering within this seven year period. Most BR stock won't be a problem as 1950s lettering still appeared well into the 1970s but I just need to be careful with private owner wagons. As you say, working from photographs of the prototype is the safest option.

 

Finally, I didn't realise the GWR twin tank wagons lasted so long - that's why I didn't include any in my list of Slaters' wagons.

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Thanks for that reassurance Martyn, (...breathes major sigh of relief), my minimum radius turnouts will be A5s - just a tad tighter than Peco's standard 'medium'. Inspired by Hemyock to justify its post-Beeching survival my fictitious branch would have needed a major rethink if that hadn't been the case.

 

Now according to the photos I've amassed it looks like it would it be acceptable to turn out a couple or three Slaters models in 'silver' (for want of a better word) livery with United Dairies plates. If so... anyone know where I can get the plates?

....... ditto here, on both points (sorry, pun not intended!). Those United Dairies plates are very nice.

 

A short rake of one each of ex-LMS 3000 and 2000 gallon and an ex-GWR 3000 gallon would look very interesting. Would they have run to the same dairy during the same period?

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Guys,

 

A very quick post cos I've run my bath, but BR owned the chassis and the dairy owned the tank. So each vehicle presumably went to its owner's dairy, what I don't know is whether the trains from country to town (and the empties in the reversr direction) were "mixed".

 

Bill

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A very quick post cos I've run my bath, but BR owned the chassis and the dairy owned the tank. So each vehicle presumably went to its owner's dairy, what I don't know is whether the trains from country to town (and the empties in the reversr direction) were "mixed".

It depended on the era. Up until the mid-50s, churn traffic was still being carried so some trains would include a mix of tankers and NPCCS for carrying the churns. The GWR built siphons for this traffic, not sure about the other big 3. I believe churn traffic was stopped in 1956 or 57 (if anyone knows the exact date I would be interested to find out). From then on, milk trains would usually consist of just tankers and BG of some sort for the Guard. From 1968 this changed again so that the Gaurd could ride in the loco and practice of running a passenger-rated brake vehicle with milk trains came to an end.

 

Milk trains could be mixed, particulraly in the country. Hemyock and Saltash are examples of services that were routinely mixed with passenger traffic at least as far as the junction. Some mixed trains ran right into London. The longest lasting example I know of was the United Dairies Creamery at Moreton-in-the-Marsh. This did not merit its own train so the milk tankers were usually attached to the rear of an up express to Paddington.

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Guys,

 

A very quick post cos I've run my bath, but BR owned the chassis and the dairy owned the tank. So each vehicle presumably went to its owner's dairy, what I don't know is whether the trains from country to town (and the empties in the reversr direction) were "mixed".

 

Bill

The ones from Carmarthen certainly were, as there were both MMB and Unigate creameries in the area (there were depots at Carmarten, Whitland, Pont Llanio, Felin Fach even into the 1970s), and only one milk train on most days. Further traffic was picked up at Marshfield, between Cardiff and Newport, whence the whole train (perhaps 25-30 tanks on occasion) would work to Kensington Olympia, there to be divided up. To be honest, by the late 1960s, the ownership of individual tanks was hard to discern, unless the train was stationary at a signal- not something that happened often as firstly, the bobby would probably have to explain it, and secondly, you wouldn't want the somewhat cheesy odour outside your 'box

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....... Those United Dairies plates are very nice.

 

If the 7mm scale United Dairies plates aren't readily available to order on their own is anyone interested in getting together and commissioning someone to etch some? I'm in for buying at least four pairs and if someone could supply the plate dimensions and a really good 'square-on' prototype photo (so I can identify the font) I'll happily produce the artwork if it helps keep costs down.

 

D

 

PS: 'Karhedron' you're definitely talking my language now... 'mixed' trains are the 'raison d'etre' behind my layout plan. Rarely seen in model form but so worth doing! Operationally they add an additional 'shunting puzzle' dimension to a small terminus layout on which activity would otherwise be a bit limited by the late 50s/early60s.

 

PPS: I think the van type used on the Hemyock runs was an ex-Southern 'BY' (as modelled by Slaters). Unless of course someone knows differently????

Edited by David Siddall
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PPS: I think the van type used on the Hemyock runs was an ex-Southern 'BY' (as modelled by Slaters). Unless of course someone knows differently????

Up until the withdrawal of passenger services, the Hemyock train had an ex-Barry coach (the gaslighting being necessary as the run on the branch was not fast enough or long enough to power lighting from coach dynamos). The guard would normally ride in this.

 

I have seen pictures after the withdrawl of passenger services with a class 22 and a midland BG (I think it was a 50' stanier brake) but I can't remember seeing any with a southern brake vehicle. I could be wrong of course. :scratchhead:

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If the 7mm scale United Dairies plates aren't readily available to order on their own is anyone interested in getting together and commissioning someone to etch some? I'm in for buying at least four pairs and if someone could supply the plate dimensions and a really good 'square-on' prototype photo (so I can identify the font) I'll happily produce the artwork if it helps keep costs down.

 

David

 

Many thanks for offering to produce the artwork if this is a 'goer'. I would certainly be interested in three pairs and sharing the costs with you as I quite fancy modelling one each of the three Slaters' wagons in the same time period (early 60s). I just need to make sure that I can run them into a goods yard as one or two wagons. From what people have said on here, could they have run as a trip working on a freight-only line with just a brake van or as part of a mixed goods train ....... or do I need to be thinking about a BG or a Syphon?

 

 

Stephen

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David

 

Many thanks for offering to produce the artwork if this is a 'goer'. I would certainly be interested in three pairs and sharing the costs with you as I quite fancy modelling one each of the three Slaters' wagons in the same time period (early 60s). I just need to make sure that I can run them into a goods yard as one or two wagons. From what people have said on here, could they have run as a trip working on a freight-only line with just a brake van or as part of a mixed goods train ....... or do I need to be thinking about a BG or a Syphon?

 

 

Stephen

Until the end, the creameries north of Carmarthen were served by the daily mixed goods; into the early 1970s, one could see a Hymek or '68er' on a couple of tanks, a mineral or two and perhaps some vans (animal feed or fertilizer) or a Lowfit with farm machinery on board. It was only upon arrival at Carmarthen that the wagons became part of a dedicated milk train.

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Until the end, the creameries north of Carmarthen were served by the daily mixed goods; into the early 1970s, one could see a Hymek or '68er' on a couple of tanks, a mineral or two and perhaps some vans (animal feed or fertilizer) or a Lowfit with farm machinery on board. It was only upon arrival at Carmarthen that the wagons became part of a dedicated milk train.

Brian

 

Phew! Thanks for that reassurance. ".... a couple of tanks, a mineral or two and perhaps some vans" is exactly what I want to replicate on my freight-only branch line.

 

I've just dug out my copy of John Vaughan's "The Power of the Hymeks" (OPC) which shows some fantastic shots of milk trains in South Wales including D7085 at Lampeter with a couple of milk tankers from Port Laino in April 1970. (There are also a couple of great photos of D7070 with three empty mineral wagons and a brake van at Llandyssil and Pencader Junction.) I just love these short goods trains, full of character!

 

Stephen

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I quite fancy modelling one each of the three Slaters' wagons in the same time period (early 60s). I just need to make sure that I can run them into a goods yard as one or two wagons. From what people have said on here, could they have run as a trip working on a freight-only line with just a brake van or as part of a mixed goods train ....... or do I need to be thinking about a BG or a Syphon?

Yes, you could run them in this way and you would not necessarily need a siphon or BG. BGs were often used as milk trains usually ran at express passenger speeds on the mainline. However when the dairy was at the end of a branch, the trip to the junction would be unlikely to be made at high speed so a normal brake van would suffice.

 

There is a nice picture of the Hemyock branch here showing a 1400 with a toad brake van on its way to pick up the milk. The Hemyock branch had a speed limit of around 25mph IIRC so there was no need for a passenger-rated brake vehicle for this journey.

 

http://chasewaterstuff.wordpress.com/tag/hemyock/

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I think Slater's already do 7mm plates. Have a look on their site for X7073EX and X7073UD.

Thanks for the item ref. numbers Bill, the lack of an in-site-search facility on the Slater's site means I probably wouldn't have found them otherwise: https://slatersplast...e.php?code=7073. No pics anywhere on a Google image search though so maybe I'll invest a couple of quid to see what they look like. Hopefully like those shown in Trevor H's pic's?

 

D

Edited by David Siddall
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I have seen pictures after the withdrawal of passenger services with a class 22 and a midland BG (I think it was a 50' stanier brake) but I can't remember seeing any with a southern brake vehicle. I could be wrong of course.

Was worried the memory was playing tricks on me again but if you've got access to a copy of Paul Karau's 'Great Western Branch Line Termini', Volume 2, there's a cracking full-page shot dated 1952 on page 74 showing what I'm pretty certain is an ex SR 'BY' 4-wheel van attached to three milk tanks being shunted a Hemyock by the branch' 14xx.

 

Photos of a right old variety of '6-wheel tanker' types throughout the 'Hemyock' section of the book so plenty of evidence for what you're suggesting Stephen.

 

D

 

PS: For something a bit different, I'm sure I've also seen a photo of a blue liveried Class 03 diesel shunter on a short train of milk tanks plus BR standard brake van on the Highbridge branch shortly before it closed. Duty calls but I'll see if I can track the pic' down this evening/tomorrow.

Edited by David Siddall
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Was worried the memory was playing tricks on me again but if you've got access to a copy of Paul Karau's 'Great Western Branch Line Termini', Volume 2, there's a cracking full-page shot dated 1952 on page 74 showing what I'm pretty certain is an ex SR 'BY' 4-wheel van attached to three milk tanks being shunted a Hemyock by the branch' 14xx.

 

Photos of a right old variety of '6-wheel tanker' types throughout the 'Hemyock' section of the book so plenty of evidence for what you're suggesting Stephen.

 

D

 

PS: For something a bit different, I'm sure I've also seen a photo of a blue liveried Class 03 diesel shunter on a short train of milk tanks plus BR standard brake van on the Highbridge branch shortly before it closed. Duty calls but I'll see if I can track the pic' down this evening/tomorrow.

The Passenger Brake on the Hemyock may have been for other produce, such as butter or cheese. I believe that the Hemyock was hauled by an 03 for a few years, at least on the Tiverton Jct- Hemyock section.

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I believe that the Hemyock was hauled by an 03 for a few years, at least on the Tiverton Jct- Hemyock section.

'Lifting the Hem line' (Railways Illustrated, October 2011) totally supports that belief Brian quoting '2140' being the first in September 1963. The article also features some cracking blue diesel era colour photos of 22s (63xx) and 25/0s; plus a black and white of Hymek 'D7005' with small warning panel/white cab window surrounds on empty tanks on Feb 14 1971. Can't see whether there's a solebar stripe so the Hymek could either still be in green or maybe (my favourite) 'chromatic' blue? Any livery specialists know which it was? The article also states '5530' ('31112') worked the milk tanks to Hemyock on October 31 1973 and that the line was given an official loading restriction for class 37s!!! Apparently the line enjoyed a much greater variety of motive power in its final days than during the steam era when it was the preserve of a regular 14xx, '1451' (occasionally subbed by '1405')!

 

 

.... a couple of tanks, a mineral or two and perhaps some vans" is exactly what I want to replicate on my freight-only branch line.

Some lovely inspirational shots of 'The Milkie' on the Highbridge Branch here Stephen, plus more delightful short branch freights on the pages to which this one's linked. There IS a shot of an 03 hauling two BR standard brake vans en-route from Bridgwater to Highbridge to collect the milk from Bason Bridge on 16 June 1966 at the bottom of the page but I can't find the pic' I'm sure I've seen of the return working ...wish I'd bookmarked it!

 

I know I said I wouldn't be looking 'till tonight but I'm taking an early-doors Friday. One of the benefits of self-employment ...though I will have to give myself a verbal warning later for skiving ;-)

Edited by David Siddall
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Some lovely inspirational shots of 'The Milkie' on the Highbridge Branch here Stephen, plus more delightful short branch freights on the pages to which this one's linked.

That is nice! The very first photo, shows what I consider to be quite a rare milk tank - one of the LNER ones E70357. Personally I only ever caught one of these http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnermilktank and it, and the frame, both have split axleboxes whereas 70357 has the LNER slope fronted ones. According to Tatlow, Peter (2000) Historic Carriage drawings Volume three: Non-passenger coaching stock. Publ. Pendragon Partnership, York, UK. ISBN 1 899816 09 7 128 pages. on pages 114-115 this was the first of a batch from 1934 allocated to U,D. (W) although he was unsure whether this meant United Dairies Wales or West. Interestingly Tatlow has this vehicle as originally number 4315 (and he has a photo), and the tank is number 415 - perhaps there was an association between frame and tank numbering?

 

Paul Bartlett

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'Lifting the Hem line' (Railways Illustrated, October 2011) totally supports that belief Brian quoting '2140' being the first in September 1963. The article also features some cracking blue diesel era colour photos of 22s (63xx) and 25/0s; plus a black and white of Hymek 'D7005' with small warning panel/white cab window surrounds on empty tanks on Feb 14 1971. Can't see whether there's a solebar stripe so the Hymek could either still be in green or maybe (my favourite) 'chromatic' blue? Any livery specialists know which it was?

Not a livery expert but I have seen a shot of a green hymek on the Hemtock branch, not sure if it is 7005 or not but I am not sure if Hymeks were frequent visitors to the branch.

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not sure if anyones mentioned this as yet? but D. Larkins 1978 Bradford Barton publication Br general parcels rolling stock contains 18 excellent images of both BR & pre-nationalisation designs photographed at various locations in 1970, one still carrying IMS livery & a couple in very clean St. Ivel, hope this is of assistance?

 

Nigel

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