Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 seems that some of the arguments against are that people dont trust anyone with an american accent trying to sell them something. and that they should tell us theyre secrets so that we can develop our own cheaper and smaller modules the consisiting or double heading looks good. of course lots of these things can be done with laptops running your DCC layout, but the main point is that its a simpler way of doing it, something the man in the street can use. the price and the size is an issue at the moment, but rather than get my back up and defend DCC, all i want to see is if this new system works, and it looks like it does work, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 the idea that you can download your own sounds and pictures from your pc, just as you would with a sat nav for example is nice, That's not the way I understood it; you can download their pictures and their sounds from their site. Whether someone could hack the tech to get back door access would be crucial in this sort of case as I wouldn't anticipate sufficient support from the originator. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I think it has one serious drawback though. It is very much a US product in design and use - once again we see the US blinkered product design to the US market rather than thinking global. Which begs the question of whether the system would legal to use in the EU, given that it's radio based and the US radio frequency spectrum is carved up differently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 seems that some of the arguments against are that people dont trust anyone with an american accent trying to sell them something. and that they should tell us theyre secrets so that we can develop our own cheaper and smaller modules the consisiting or double heading looks good. I don't trust anyone with any accent trying to sell me anything :-) In terms of usability this system looks very impressive, much slicker than any DCC demo I've seen, it's just difficult to see a way forward for a system which is tied to one manufacturer - after all manufacturers with a vested interest in current DCC are hardly going to buy licenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 surely if people can hack into things, then some clever person could reverse engineer and find out how they do it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm wondering why the PSU costs an eye watering 270 USD, if all it's doing is sticking a few amps of dc on the track? Surely any old dc PSU of sufficient capability should be OK if all the intelligence is in the decoder chips. EDIT: reading the user manual available via this page:- http://www.johnshobbies.com/store/index.php?cPath=266_265 Seems there is at least some intelligence built into the PSU. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm wondering why the PSU costs an eye watering 270 USD, if all it's doing is sticking a few amps of dc on the track? Surely any old dc PSU of sufficient capability should be OK if all the intelligence is in the decoder chips. yeah i dont know why you would buy it, unless you where just starting out and hadnt researched it as you can use any dcc power supply they say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 That's not the way I understood it; you can download their pictures and their sounds from their site. Whether someone could hack the tech to get back door access would be crucial in this sort of case as I wouldn't anticipate sufficient support from the originator. Page 36 of the user manual states you can send a photo of your pet loco to Rail Pro and (for a fee ) they will email you a picture file suitable for your handset. http://www.ringengineering.com/RailPro/Documents/DOC1019Rev1_01-HC-1UsersManual.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 ...the idea that you can download your own sounds and pictures from your pc, just as you would with a sat nav for example is nice, You can download pictures of loco's for the ECoS, Veissmann Commander, Marklin CS2 and Zimo system, so it's nothing new. The RailPro pictures and sounds have to come from their own website, you can't load your own directly. They allow you to download from their own list of pictures, sounds, lighting effects, but if you want your own they'll charge you for it. You can have one free picture download for every decoder module you purchase. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2012 It's sure as eggs that radio control will eventually eclipse rolling contact through the wheels for control commands and data. That was always the weak point of the 30-year-old technology in DCC. Whether this will be the product to do it remains to be seen. Other manufacturers are surely working on their own versions. Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 cheers Ron and Spamcan, thats crap then dont like the Apple approach Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 In respect of the original question "Is this the end of DCC?" you can confidently give the answer 'no'. This is for the simple reason that the promoters of the product have considered it necessary to explain what interoperable compatability it offers with DCC. 'Knockout' displacement consumer electronics products don't have to offer any such explanation. Examples: how is CD compatible with my gramophone and LP's? (answer: it isn't, all that medieval scratch, needle and potters wheel tech is obsolete) how is DVD compatible with my VHS deck and tapes? (answer: it isn't, throw it in a skip) how is downloaded music compatible with my CD player (I think you know the answer). As soon as compatability explanations start getting made, you know that those selling the stuff don't believe it has the potential to be a knockout - if they did all their time and energy would be used promoting it as such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Seems to me that: 1. Separating power and signal is a good thing - simpler track power is a good thing and opens up the capability for onboard power supply/assistance (batteries, capacitors, whatever) to reduce the reliance on continuous track power 2. Bi-directional communication is a good thing and DCC isn't really up to that without additional overlays 3. The ability to work in parrallel with DCC is a good thing - without that I can't see any existing users giving it a go 4. Cheaper, smaller non-sound chips on the way - i'm not sure it's hugely more expensive than equivalent DCC kit as it is... But for the moment: 1. I'd share Andy's concerns that it's one proprietary manufacturer, to take off it will need wider support....but to get the wider support it may need more users and more demand.... 2. The UK market needs to know what 'direct radio' actually is (I googled the term and got very little beyond a minicab company in Birmingham!) - is it radio (in which case is the frequency legal over here), or is it wifi-based (in which case it may well be legal - but will you have problems if you have two systems next to each other at a show?) I think it's worth watching and seeing what happens... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 dont like the Apple approach That's exactly what I was thinking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 In respect of the original question "Is this the end of DCC?" you can confidently give the answer 'no'. This is for the simple reason that the promoters of the product have considered it necessary to explain what interoperable compatability it offers with DCC. 'Knockout' displacement consumer electronics products don't have to offer any such explanation. Examples: how is CD compatible with my gramophone and LP's? (answer: it isn't, all that medieval scratch, needle and potters wheel tech is obsolete)[/i] I would take the opposite view - when CD's were introduced we had to be told that they were better than C90s and vinyl, we had to be told they were (supposedly) indestructable, we had to be told they wouldn't scratch, we had to be told not to turn them over when you get to the end...we had to be told what the advantages were and debates ranged far and wide (and probably still rumble on in audiophile circles) about how vinyl sounded better, and so on and so forth...My reccollection is that nobody advertised CD players by telling you that you must bin your tapes and records either.... We've had products fairly recently which gave certain 'advantages over DCC' but were fundamentally incompatible with it and deservedly bombed - this isn't compatible with DCC, but it can be used in parrallel. Compatibility would be nice but isn't neccesarily needed. Your analogy works with what they are doing rather well though - most people they bought a CD player didn't immediately landfill their record player, tape deck and entire existing music collection, they kept them and used them alongside.....at least until they had bought enough CDs to not have to bother with one or other of the old formats. We still have a VCR for playing a couple of decades of pre-recorded video's, we also have a DVD player for playing them. We've not done blu-ray yet but if we do it likely won't see all of the other formats binned immediately. Similarly you can install this and run it alongside your existing DCC... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I've had a skim through the manual. I read a lot of computer equipment manuals and documentation, and I wasn't that impressed. I think it's fair to say that this one hasn't been written by a technical author, and it reads more like a set of notes than a finished user guide. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad product though. The point around downloading of photographs is an interesting one - why isn't it possible to do this yourself via a USB connection, and a bit of software on your PC (or the web) which mangles JPEGs in to the appropriate format? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 It's sure as eggs that radio control will eventually eclipse rolling contact through the wheels for control commands and data. That was always the weak point of the 30-year-old technology in DCC. Whether this will be the product to do it remains to be seen. Other manufacturers are surely working on their own versions. Martin. Given that I can buy a USB Bluetooth dongle retail for a couple of quid, and it's smaller than my thumbnail, one would hope that radio control isn't far away, although an 'official' DCC one depends on the machinations of the NMRA I guess, as Pete alluded to ealrier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 just as you would with a sat nav Will it leave the loco standing in a ploughed field while it announces, 'The train has now reached the terminus'? All this new-fangled electrical stuff will never replace clockwork. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted January 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2012 I'm a H&M Duette user, but isn't that pretty much what DecoderPro gives you? Having to set CV values using a controller looks like 1970s computer programming to me, having a proper GUI makes me marginally more likely to buy in long term. That's what I was getting at - being able to do it via a nice GUI, rather than a PC. Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 There's a distinct advantage for any new digital control system, starting from scratch today, insofar as the availability of cheap easily available networking technologies and protocols. (I'm a non-techie so forgive me if the terminology is wrong!). When Lenz started out with what is now known as NMRA DCC, non of this was available, certainly not at the consumer level. The problem for DCC as I see it through my layman's eyes, is how adaptable is it to take advantage of p2p networking topologies, higher processing speeds and all the other wizz-bang stuff you could do now if starting with a clean sheet of paper? A more pertinent question might be, does it really need any of it ......and if so what bits? At some point a step change may come along, but I believe it would have to be fully backwards compatible to gain acceptance from consumers, the DCC manufacturers and the standards organisations. There appears to be some really good stuff in the RailPro product (although it has a number of shortcomings too), but without being designed to integrate more closely with DCC and without any apparent intention to cooperate in the NMRA standardisation process, it will remain just a proprietary system, with the attendant issues already outlined by Andy and others. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 i like the motor overload and fault warning. the fact its 2 way. this was something i thought DCC did before i got my setup Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 i can see why they would want to keep their product secret, you dont make money giving things away, that would work with a big consumer product, like the I phones for example, but model railways is a small market in the scheme of things and the dcc side is even smaller, upsetting a small consumer group doesnt sound the best way to go about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ron Ron Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 i like the motor overload and fault warning. the fact its 2 way. this was something i thought DCC did before i got my setup It can to a certain extent; but not on your system (NCE). Bi-directional comms and motor load / overload exists on DCC. I imagine RailPro can take advantage of modern wireless networking to achieve a better means of doing it. I'm sure someone with the detailed knowledge can fill us in on this subject? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhBBob Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I don't understand all this.........all I do is play trains whether at home or at exhibitions, with a PA2 system and some first class Lok-Pilot and Lenz decoders which are great fun to programme......and then see what happens. Although the old layout is 18 ft by 8ft, I cannot go radio or wireless or infra-red as I need the exercise..... The new one is 15ft by 2ft so perhaps roller-blades will be more appropriate..... So I shall keep the cables for now. Bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted January 9, 2012 Share Posted January 9, 2012 I like this product and I think it will fly. The single supplier argument may be valid in the short term however if one of big railway manufacturers Hornby Bachmann or Dapol were to licence, adopt and develop this system and make it compatible with DCC for a few years then things could get very interesting. Coming from an RF electronics and user experience background I think this is good technology which is straight forward to use. The end user should not have to spend hours working out how a control system works programming in binary which I am sorry, is very outdated! A really good control should of an intuitive design whereby it is easy to use. Whilst DCC is/was? a massive leap forward and I am use it IMO it is a stepping stone The best analogy is the change in music media of the last 40 years vinyl disk, audio cassette, CD. MP3 files with 8 track and minidisks falling by the wayside on this journey. I really look forward with great enthusiasm to seeing this product develop further XF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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