-missy- Posted January 13, 2012 Share Posted January 13, 2012 Me again... Was it this then? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/36645-pixies-workbench-quiet-proactiveness/page__st__50 (about half way down) M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 13, 2012 Author Share Posted January 13, 2012 Ah, very similar but in brass. We're getting closer... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
richbrummitt Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 The only ones in brass that spring to mind are the High Level Kits gearboxes. None of them are thin enough for 2mm but some are thin enough for 3mm and your gauge is nearly 12mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Chris, this Stuart Hine chap seems to have been way ahead of his time. Very talented man indeed! Oh, and he also used to make the Pentroller, still the very best controller if you are using coreless motors, but don't want to go for DCC. Stewart is still alive, although been pretty ill in recent years. Has 2mm Asssociation member number 4. So we can add being a founder member of the Association to his list. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Oh, and he also used to make the Pentroller, still the very best controller if you are using coreless motors, but don't want to go for DCC. Stewart is still alive, although been pretty ill in recent years. Has 2mm Asssociation member number 4. So we can add being a founder member of the Association to his list. Chris Stuart attended the 2mm AGM last year and the 50th Anniversary Expo, so he still maintains an interest in things 2mm-related. Wasn't he also involved in Pendon? As regards the gearboxes, I have a feeling Bill Bedford used to produce one in brass - see this web page. It is too big for 2mm models, and I'm not sure if he still makes them....Might also be worth trying Branchlines - I got a similar plastic gearbox from them years ago. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 14, 2012 Share Posted January 14, 2012 Stuart attended the 2mm AGM last year and the 50th Anniversary Expo, so he still maintains an interest in things 2mm-related. Wasn't he also involved in Pendon? Yes, I believe he did some of the coaching stock and the electrics. But his name is definately Stewart. One thing he does not claim credit for is the hymn "How Great Thou Art", written by Stuart Hine. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Andy, that looks very similar indeed. I wonder if somebody reproduced in a smaller scale? All I remember is that it was used on a totally scratch-built steam loco in 2mm scale, very finely detailed. I've lost the damn page, it's not even in my History, which doesn't go beyond after 3 days. How did you find the plastic version? I've found a motor with an integral 25:1 gearbox from here: https://catalog.precisionmicrodrives.com/order-parts/product/206-101-6mm-dc-gearmotor-16mm-type It's very small and would almost certainly need a flywheel to smooth out acceleration and deceleration and to be quite low geared to work convincingly (100:1 at least I'd say). Do you thing it's any good? £10 not including delivery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Andy, that looks very similar indeed. I wonder if somebody reproduced in a smaller scale? All I remember is that it was used on a totally scratch-built steam loco in 2mm scale, very finely detailed. I've lost the damn page, it's not even in my History, which doesn't go beyond after 3 days. How did you find the plastic version? I've found a motor with an integral 25:1 gearbox from here: https://catalog.prec...motor-16mm-type It's very small and would almost certainly need a flywheel to smooth out acceleration and deceleration and to be quite low geared to work convincingly (100:1 at least I'd say). Do you thing it's any good? £10 not including delivery. These mobile phone motors can usually be had for example from ebay at much cheaper orices than that. Another 2mm member got me some in bulk a while back, albeit still with the funny weight attached to the end which makes the vibration. But they are not typically designed to run continuously (as your mobile does not ring all of the time) and can get very hot very quickly if put under load. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-missy- Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Hello Again.. Andy, that looks very similar indeed. I wonder if somebody reproduced in a smaller scale? No, no-one has reproducd that in 2mm All I remember is that it was used on a totally scratch-built steam loco in 2mm scale, very finely detailed. I've lost the damn page, it's not even in my History, which doesn't go beyond after 3 days. Did it cross your mind that the gearbox might have been scratch built too then? It whoever can scratch build an engine then there is a good chance they did the gearbox too. Honetly making a gearbox isnt that hard at all, the most difficult bit is making sure the holes for the gear shafts are drilled the right distance apart, How did you find the plastic version? I've found a motor with an integral 25:1 gearbox It's very small and would almost certainly need a flywheel to smooth out acceleration and deceleration and to be quite low geared to work convincingly (100:1 at least I'd say). Why would it definately need a flywheel? Im sorry but I dont understand why. You dont need 100:1 gearing either, to get gearing like that in an engine that size will not be easy, You can achieve good running with 30:1 gearing or less, for an engine like that I would aim for around 40:1. Do you thing it's any good? £10 not including delivery. I have seen people use these for 2mm NG stuff and they seem ok, the problem is the length as with the gearbox they are quite long, the other problem is I have heard the grey plastic shaft cannot be removed or replaced easily so you will need to figure that bit out. I have one of these somewhere (like most 2mm modellers) but never really found anything suitable for it, especially when there are much better motors around. The motor is a 3v motor too so it needs to be replaced to be effective, the problem with that is it means pulling apart a very small gearbox (probably a planitary one too!) I am starting to realise why you chose your ID now! I know its nice to be different and inventive but I really dont understand why you are making it so much harder for yourself by trying to do it differently. The reason 99% of 2mm modellers use certian motors and gears and have done for 50+ years is because it works and it works well! Oh well, I am trying to be supportive! Missy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 I think I may call time on this thread. I'm frustrating people I don't want to frustrate. I'll play about on my own and if I find anything interesting I'll post it. I'm putting a tool kit together so I'm not ready to start anything yet. My ultimate aim is to find solutions that require as little micro engineering as possible and put together existing products, perhaps that haven't been combined before. Thanks very much for all the advice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2mm Andy Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Andy, that looks very similar indeed. I wonder if somebody reproduced in a smaller scale? All I remember is that it was used on a totally scratch-built steam loco in 2mm scale, very finely detailed. I've lost the damn page, it's not even in my History, which doesn't go beyond after 3 days. How did you find the plastic version? I've found a motor with an integral 25:1 gearbox from here: https://catalog.prec...motor-16mm-type It's very small and would almost certainly need a flywheel to smooth out acceleration and deceleration and to be quite low geared to work convincingly (100:1 at least I'd say). Do you thing it's any good? £10 not including delivery. I don't recall seeing anything similar (ie. in brass) but smaller. I have to confess that i haven't used the Branchlines gearbox, so I can't tell you how good it was! Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Time to give up on finding the gearbox I saw a few days ago. I know it wasn't made by the loco builder otherwise I would have had no interest in it. The text definitely said "gearbox by..." and "available from...". Let's put that to bed. So, unless Missy can produce an even more miniscule gearbox than the miniscule gearbox she has produced already (in her recent blog entry) then I am left with 'off-the-shelf' items. To that end, and ignoring the bottom left design, my three current favourites are below. My test layout is small (1.2m wide). Top left is a motor with built-in 25:1 planetary gearbox giving a top speed of 1800 rpm, and further 14:1 worm, produces a very low top speed but precise movement. The 'play factor' of my test layout will be making goods trains in my fiddle/marshalling yard so this is good. Top right is my favourite of favourites. A 20k rpm motor with 3.5:1 reduction onto a 14:1 worm and integrated flywheel on the motor shaft. Good speed, silky smooth movement but a low enough speed to shunt effectively. Finally, my speed demon. The same 20k rpm motor with just a 14:1 worm. Cramp-inducing delicate speed control required to maneuver this loco around the marshalling yard and a totally unrealistic top speed (this particular loco on my branch of interest produced a truly magnificent average speed of... 14mph!). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2012 Did you see this gearbox that popped up yesterday? http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/34665-gearbox/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Top right is my favourite of favourites. A 20k rpm motor with 3.5:1 reduction onto a 14:1 worm and integrated flywheel on the motor shaft. Good speed, silky smooth movement but a low enough speed to shunt effectively. Generally gear arranegments with the spur gears before the worm reduction is not favoured in 2mm scale. Unless the gears are very good quality and well matched, this tends to result in a loco that goes along the track with a high pitched screaming noise because of those spur gears going around at a rate of knots. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Kris, that is AMAZING! That would certainly solve a few problems, depending on the ratios. Chris, the gearing and pulleys are all Nigel Lawton so I'm hoping it's good quality and well matched. I could even use his motor to keep it all in-house. I'll just have to get a flywheel made by a handyman with a lathe... Actually, I had not even considered noise as a factor so thanks for bringing it to my attention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Generally gear arranegments with the spur gears before the worm reduction is not favoured in 2mm scale. Unless the gears are very good quality and well matched, this tends to result in a loco that goes along the track with a high pitched screaming noise because of those spur gears going around at a rate of knots. Chris How, then, do you get over the issue of not end loading coreless motors by fitting worm gears to them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted January 17, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 17, 2012 Kris, that is AMAZING! That would certainly solve a few problems, depending on the ratios. I don't deserve any credit for the gear box. I just remembered seeing the picture yesterday. PM the guy who made it to get more info. I suspect that it will be a little to highly geared as it is but possibly not by too much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted January 17, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 17, 2012 How, then, do you get over the issue of not end loading coreless motors by fitting worm gears to them? I've never found it a problem. I currently have five locos running with worms attatched directly to a coreless motor - 2xNigel Lawton, 2xFaulhaber and one Maxon with no issue. As for the main thrust of the thread I am making no comment as Nth degree seems determined to ignore all the advice being given - best of luck Jerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 How, then, do you get over the issue of not end loading coreless motors by fitting worm gears to them? Yep, as stated, that's one piece of advice we generally ignore. There are enough examples running around now to show it is generally not needed. Although the UJ between loco and tender does get around that problem for tender locos anyway. As to the screaming problem, even Faulhaber were not immune. Those gearboxes on the RG4 and RG7 began to suffer from it once the tools that moulded the gears began to wear, making them less precise. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Kris, I've left a note on the blog entry. It certainly looks a nice neat package. Depends if it's available commercially. Queensquare, your comment may have been tongue-in-cheek but I think it's a bit unfair. I've taken all of the advice on board and, at least, thought about it. You can see the evolution of my thinking in the attachment I've given above and some suggestions have been implemented. This topic seems highly personal. I thought it was very amusing that one person stated I would never need a flywheel while providing for one on a gearbox that person has recently designed, and also providing a high degree of reduction when I was sniggered at for suggesting it. It seems very contradictory to say the least. Incidentally, where did you get your Faulhaber and Maxon motors from? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Incidentally, where did you get your Faulhaber and Maxon motors from? The Association sell the Maxon RE10. I think Branchlines do some(?) and SB Modellbau in Germnay also sell them, sometimes at discounted prices. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-missy- Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 This topic seems highly personal. I thought it was very amusing that one person stated I would never need a flywheel while providing for one on a gearbox that person has recently designed, and also providing a high degree of reduction when I was sniggered at for suggesting it. It seems very contradictory to say the least. Hello. Now that is unfair. I simply said that you dont need to fit a flywheel, its not an essiential thing to building a gearbox in 2mm scale and so dont compromise the arrangement because you think you have to fit a flywheel into an engine, especially on something that small. Its just fortunate that the gearbox I have designed fits onto a motor that is double ended and therefore you can fit a flywheel if you wanted to and felt it would be beneficial, FYI the gearbox runs perfically well enough without one. As for the reduction I did state that you dont need a high reduction, you can have a perfectly adequate engine without a high reduction (30:1 or even less). Its not easy to get a high reduction into such a small space (I know I have done it!) and its not esential. Im sorry if you feel this thread is getting personal. Its definately not intended to be like that as myself and I am sure others dont know you from Adam. I think its come from frustration that myself and others are trying to offer you help and advice on the best way of building something like this which we have learnt through experience, I defiantely have not sniggered at you and I am sorry you think that. As Jerry says... As for the main thrust of the thread I am making no comment as Nth degree seems determined to ignore all the advice being given - best of luck I dont want you to attempt building this engine using untried techniques which have a high probability of not working, ending in frustration and ultimately giving up with 2mm if it doesnt. I am sure I am not alone thinking this either, you are definately jumping in head first and if it all works out then fantastic but you are not taking the easy route for sure! Ultimately you originally asked for advice and thats what I and others did... Im not here to have people make sarcastic comments about me so because of that, you know where to find me if you need my help/advice... Missy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Modeller Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Have you considered adapting a Farish Class 03 or 04 chassis? You could use it with little modification, I suspect, for N gauge. The wheelbase may be slightly short, but I am sure a small compromise would be worth it in other ways. If you wish to use 2FS standards, then I believe the 2mm Scale Association are bringing out a chassis kit to adapt the loco to 2FS standards. This chassis might be good enough for your purposes, as the motor, gears etc. will already have been planned for in the design. No need to buy the Farish loco then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted January 18, 2012 Author Share Posted January 18, 2012 Armchair, one thing I thought about was the 04 option you mention. What I was thinking was getting a used one, maybe a bit tatty (so cheap!) then replacing bits as I go. For example, I could get a replacement body kit, learn the basics of soldering putting it together, then try a chassis kit later. Unfortunately, the wheelbase is not appropriate for the Fox Walker. My plan, before I start building this, is to practice soldering and kit building first. I'm trying to find appropriate age-related stock which is not as easy as 20thC items. Someone on another thread has gone a long way in pointing me in the right direction so I'm reading with interest. Thanks for the suggestion though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armchair Modeller Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I appreciate you want to do things your way. The total wheelbase of the Farish chassis is only about 1mm short overall though - that is 0.5mm between each pair of wheels - certainly close enough for most people's tastes. The wheel diameter is OK too. Its a shame you have rejected it as a possibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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