scotcent Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 My wife remembers going with her father to collect a horse at our local station (Ladybank, Fife) in about 1948. Unfortunately she was never a railway enthusiast, and is quite unable to answer the simple questions I ask her(!). So I would like to put the questions to this group. 1. Were horses always accompanied by a groom, or could they be on their own, perhaps for short journeys? 2. Horseboxes could be attached to most passenger trains (other than the most important expresses). Did the boxes always have to be shunted into a bay for loading / unloading, and if there was no station pilot was this done by the train engine? And how did this affect the schedule? 3. Could horseboxes be loaded / unloaded onto the passenger platform? (Just like a slightly recalcitrant passenger). The pre and postgroup WTT appendices to which I have access only say where horses cannot be loaded and trains to which they may not be attached, but give little other information. I'm not thinking here of large movements of horses such as at racecourses etc, but of single horses needing to travel further than it was convenient to ride them. In hope Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Issue 5 of Great Western Railway Journal gives a good overview by John Lewis of how things were done on the GWR if that is any help. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Or, more recently and more extensively, GWRJ nos 76/8/9. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Q Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I can answer 3 in that, yes they were unloaded on passenger platforms , See swindons other railway site, under sub heading tour of the line by Mike Barnsley, sub section Ludgershall and there are troops with Horses being unloaded on the passenger platform, oh and King George 5th horses as well. I recall reading that Horseboxes when attached to a train should be nearest the Engine to reduce the "sudden start" effect of being at the back causing damage to their legs. The Q Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I know we are dealing with the loading and unloading of horses, but once that was done, then the horsebox(s) had to be returned to a 'stabling' point (Oh! a pun).... There's a photo in the Ken Nunn Collection showing a train on the MT&A line near Merthyr in pre-grouping days with a horsebox returning empty in the middle of the train of (apparently) empty mineral wagons. Just thought I would share that with you...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 It depends on the nature of the beast, literally. A valuable animal would have a travelling groom, other animals not so much. An account by one horseman I interviewed indicated that in the early 1950s he bought a yearling at Carlisle horse sales, literally it was lead down to Carlisle Station (I suspect not quite to the main Booking Office), where it had a luggage label attached and was led away. George returned home on the train that day, 2 days later he received a telegram asking him to be at the local station in time to meet a certain train, in this case it was the local pick-up and the train stopped, the cattle wagon door was opened (he was quite specific on this detail, as there was another beast for delivery also contained therein), the horse was walked out onto the platform and led away, the train then set off on its way, the whole operation taking less than 5 minutes. This information tallies with a number of other interviews I made and a couple of photos I was shown at the time. There are myriad photos of passenger platforms being used to load horses/mules en-masse, although loading mules was a little more time consuming as all securing ropes and wooden bits of wagon had to be treated with creosote first to stop chewing, peculiarly mules had to loaded/secured fore and aft not side to side when in transit. This information is from a period army manual dated 1913. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AberdeenBill Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 There's an article in a magazine (that narrows it down :-O) about a pony being delivered to Badminton Station on the Bristol to Swndon line in the early 1960s. The HB, which came from somewhere in South Wales, was shunted onto the back of a local train at Bristol TM and the train-engine backed in it into the horse dock at Badminton for unloading, where it was uncoupled. it was presumably picked up by another east-bound local a day or two later. All very model-worthy with the Hornby horsebox and the (T)MC horsebox coming soon... Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 ....... the cattle wagon door was opened (he was quite specific on this detail, as there was another beast for delivery also contained therein), .... Cattle wagon? and just two (at that stage) animals/beasts in it - where they sectioned off, or loose. Not saying they weren't in a cattle wagon, just curious on the arrangements within the cattle wagon. AberdeenBill - we sometimes do this on Penlan, when I remember to get the auto uncoupled stock together!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Cattle wagon? and just two (at that stage) animals/beasts in it - where they sectioned off, or loose. Not saying they weren't in a cattle wagon, just curious on the arrangements within the cattle wagon. I couldn't tell you to be honest, the information I was after was mainly about his working his farm with horses and the bit about his Clydesdale being railed in was just a bonus. However, re-reading my army service corps documentation, it specifies that when cattle wagons are used, beasts are to be roped in such a way that they are allowed access to any food or water provided, but movement of the body restrained so as to avoid injury in the event of any sharp movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 And, for anyone who thinks I am taking the ######! Exhibits A & B: GWR open wagons converted to carry horses. Note rings to allow for proper securing of the passengers. And a shot of a BR built horsebox after the LNER design, one I had never seen before, showing the interior colour to be light, I reckon cream or that foul primrose yellow that some luggage van interiors have been, worth noting all the padding to stop his lordships finest hunter getting brained. Although some earlier boxes had huge great pads on the doors as well. Even though these aren't the worlds greatest reproductions as my scanner has died! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 My thanks to those who have responded on this topic. Military traffic was always likely to be different, being usually on a larger scale than "domestic" horses. It does seem that horseboxes could be and were attached as required to most trains, but the exact modus operandi might vary to suit the circumstances. I was particularly intrigued by the comment from Boris re the use of cattle trucks. Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Boris' examples of opens with added rails for horse and other equine traffic were a WW1 conversion for military use, rather than normal traffic. The recent GWRJ articles mention frequent use of cattle trucks at other times for troopers' horses with officers' horses more likely to travel in proper horseboxes. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Broadly speaking, trooper was the name given to the horse of an enlisted man or NCO, effectively Government issue, the word was used as a slang term to describe rank and file cavalrymen for quite some time before it was officially adopted as the official term. Officers would often supply their own mounts, and, being of better quality would warrant a proper horse box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 In respect of the movement of horses in WW1, lets not forget over a million UK horses died, mainly in France in that conflict. There is a book called 'The War Horses' by Simon Butler - ISBN 978 0 85704 084 8 (published 2011), in which I had hoped to find an illustration of their movement by rail - but none. They obviously could not have all been in HB's. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Great Western Horse Power by Janet Russell is a good book on all things horse, it has a short chapter on WW1 with some decent photos, but none of movements of cavalry regiments, some quite nice pics of GWR design road vehicles modified for military use. I have seen a copy of a photo of Londesbro Road at Scarborough, where they are loading a cavalry regiment, but cannot remember where I saw it, I'll ask around some of WW1 enthusiast friends and see if they have anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Going back to point 3 in the very first post about unloading, if a cattle dock wasn't available I have a set of plans for a "cattle gangway" from the NER C&W department dated 1901, which I am reliably informed were also used for horses. Mounted on a pair of 2 foot cart wheels, it really is what it says on the tin, a ramp that can be wheeled around to allow ground access into any wagon. Apparently several other companies had similar devices for unloading. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 In respect of the movement of horses in WW1, lets not forget over a million UK horses died, mainly in France in that conflict. There is a book called 'The War Horses' by Simon Butler - ISBN 978 0 85704 084 8 (published 2011), in which I had hoped to find an illustration of their movement by rail - but none. They obviously could not have all been in HB's. There was a piece on the BBC website earlier in the week, related to the stories behind the Michael Molpurgo book/Stephen Spielberg film about the rôle of horses in WW1. In particular, it deals with the army camp in the Liverpool/Southport area where horses and personnel were trained. Amongst the shots was one of horses being unloaded from cattle wagons on to a cobbled platform. Here's the link:- http://www.bbc.co.uk...ashire-16599597 Incidentally, Lynne's late step-father spent most of WW2 driving the RAVC truck around Palestine; most of their 'patients' were horses that officers kept for pleasure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted January 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 20, 2012 In respect of the movement of horses in WW1, lets not forget over a million UK horses died, mainly in France in that conflict. There is a book called 'The War Horses' by Simon Butler - ISBN 978 0 85704 084 8 (published 2011), in which I had hoped to find an illustration of their movement by rail - but none. They obviously could not have all been in HB's. On the continent they did not have special vehicles for moving livestock. The same vans were used for general cargo and animals for example here. >> http://www.britishpa...to-harwich-cuts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davknigh Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Just as a matter of curiosity, were HBs turned? I have the Parkside kits and the grooms compartment is at one end which suggests that the horse would be tethered so as to travel with its head towards that end for feed, water and such. All of which makes me think that, barring turning, the horses would be travelling backwards at least part of the time. Any ideas? Cheers, David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 There are plenty of photos of trains with multiple horseboxes facing both directions. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Most of the examples of horse boxes that I have found have no windows in the horse compartment, there are inspection hatches, but not windows, it is unlikely to have made a great deal of difference to them. If you've ever travelled in a windowless railwya vehicle, it is very hard to be certain which direction you are going, the jolts all feel the same, its only surges on loose trains that really give it away, and boxes were marshalled near the front of goods anyway. I have a great picture of a GWR banana pulling 3 horse boxes behind it which is quite interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrush Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 There are a couple of BR period horsebox TRAIN pictures in Great Eastern Railway Society Journal No.148 October 2011 Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 ...I have a great picture of a GWR banana pulling 3 horse boxes behind it which is quite interesting. Was that No 18 on the Lambourn branch? It was, apparently, a fairly regular sight as there were racing stables near Lambourn station. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Was that No 18 on the Lambourn branch? It was, apparently, a fairly regular sight as there were racing stables near Lambourn station. Nick The photo doesn't specify, but it probably is, I have a sudden hankering to build a GWR log sled now! Another picture I find interesting is a horse box in Paddington station on a traverser opposite a well worn shunting capstan, the potential for modelling is endless here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Cant swear to the number OTTOMH, but the Lambourn car was specifically built for handling HBs as tail traffic Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.