Matchless Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Hi All, The station I am modelling in East Yorkshire (LNER) was mainly concerned with the movement of livestock and crops out of the station. There was also movement in to the station of military supplies and equipment. My question is; during WW2 what colours were used on freight and livestock wagons in this area and did the military 'tone down' their wagons i.e. paint them green etc. like other military vehicles and equipment? I've tried searching the 'Net but there seems to be very little information out there on this subject and period. I'm guessing that due to the situation and the need to move large amounts of freight all around the country, wagons from all over the country would turn up in all sorts of unlikely places, any ideas please? Thanks, Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Photos of "Government Stores Trains" as they were described aren't easy to come by because of the nature of the cargo and the time. Most trains conveying military supplies would appear to have used standard wagons available during the period, I think the only things that were painted up differently were hospital trains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 About the only stuff I've ever seen lettered for Government use has been tank wagons of one sort or another, or those vehicles intended for use on mainland Europe after D-Day. One thing to note is that 'pooling', and the loss of coal exports, meant there were lots of private-owner coal wagons spare. Some of these would probably have ended up in general merchandise traffic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 About the only stuff I've ever seen lettered for Government use has been tank wagons of one sort or another, or those vehicles intended for use on mainland Europe after D-Day. One thing to note is that 'pooling', and the loss of coal exports, meant there were lots of private-owner coal wagons spare. Some of these would probably have ended up in general merchandise traffic. Indeed lots of those had the parts of the top two planks above the doors removed to convert them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think I have seen somewhere that some Mineral wagons had the end doors removed, possibly the side doors as well, and were used in pairs fitted with bolsters i.e. twin bolster wagons with sides. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I think I have seen somewhere that some Mineral wagons had the end doors removed, possibly the side doors as well, and were used in pairs fitted with bolsters i.e. twin bolster wagons with sides. Yup, both the LMS and LNER undertook conversions. There was another conversion as well that I can't remember atm.. edit: Model of one http://scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=696#p4139 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thanks for all the comments, the wooden plank mineral wagons and wooden plank 12 Ton vans are probably what I'm looking for, anything I should look out for to identify the correct stock for the period i.e. late 1930 to early 1940s? Dave Edit: I should add that they are going to be used in conjunction with an Austerity 0-6-0ST (or two) in and around a busy goods yard set in early 1944. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thanks for all the comments, the wooden plank mineral wagons and wooden plank 12 Ton vans are probably what I'm looking for, anything I should look out for to identify the correct stock for the period i.e. late 1930 to early 1940s? Dave Edit: I should add that they are going to be used in conjunction with an Austerity 0-6-0ST (or two) in and around a busy goods yard set in early 1944. Dave They retained their original livery. Later in the war the Private Trader wagon may have had a small ownership branding on the lower left hand end of the wagon as the remainder of the livery faded away. The Company wagons continued to be in their usual colours. However, quite a lot needed relettering and this was done with an austerity small type. Thesre are all illustrated in the standard wagon books for the Companies. There were quite a lot of new build merchandise wagons - especially vans - during the war and these had the small lettering from new. MoD and Royal Ordnance wagons were usually painted in khaki type greens. However tank wagons often retained their original livery because they had warning colours, but the stripes which ran around the barrels only appeared on the lower half. This could still be seen on wagons that became TOPS numbered from 1973, such as http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/modatopsacidtanks/e2887fabf Paul Bartlett Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyA Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Paul has beaten me to it. However, to add a bit more, military wagons were mainly used in specific circumstances such as ambulance trains, mobile workshop trains and Warflat trains. From 1943/4, there were also American wagons belonging to the USATC that would have been green. Merchandise including military stores was transported in railway company wagons or requisitioned private owner wagons. In 1940 there were 652,000 railway owned wagons and 585,000 private owners’ wagons. Compared to this, the approximately 200 wagons allocated to the Longmoor Military Railway in 1943 are insignificant. An example of the usage of railway owned wagons is the ammunition train involved in the Soham explosion in 1944. The train consisted of 51 open wagons “loaded with US aircraft bombs and componentsâ€. All except two of the wagons were railway company wagons, the one destroyed being a SR 12-ton open wagon. All wagons were sheeted. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Q Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 As an add on to this question, I know a fair amount of LMS 57ft carriages were converted in to HATS and Oats (home ambulance train and Overseas Ambulance train) and all documentation I've seen says they are Khaki.. But in 1940 would this have been brownish khaki as seen on WW1 RODs etc or a green Khaki which would have been more logical for Europe and the UK? The Q Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thanks for all the advise Being new to this subject it's now a silly question time... Looking through all the adverts in magazines etc. for rolling stock, most of the vans and wagons seem to be described as BR or are in Private Owner livery, how do I identify rolling stock that would have been around in the early 1940s? Did the design of vans and wagons change that much between the 1930s and 1960s? Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thanks for all the advise Being new to this subject it's now a silly question time... Looking through all the adverts in magazines etc. for rolling stock, most of the vans and wagons seem to be described as BR or are in Private Owner livery, how do I identify rolling stock that would have been around in the early 1940s? Did the design of vans and wagons change that much between the 1930s and 1960s? Dave If you stick to things not described as BR you should be fine..Most of the stuff running around into the 60s was either built before BR or very much based on grouping designs anyway. Bachmann does release some wagons in grouping liveries though not as many as BR liveried released due to popularity. You'll have to knacker the paint jobs on a lot of the PO wagons and you'll have issues with the small lettering that was painted int the left hand corner when the original livery got too bad to read. Unless you have a really steady hand or can print transfers anyway. The 4mm Coal Wagon by Wild Swan has a lot of wagons in wartime condition and a couple of overviews of yard scenes that could be useful to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Thanks for the tip on the Wild Swan book, sounds interesting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Before c1937, wagons were lettered GW, SR, LMS or NE in large letters. After this the lettering became smaller, mainly on the lower left. Reduced again during the war. Obviously this did not happen overnight, so either would be OK, but would be showing signs of wear and neglect. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 They retained their original livery. Later in the war the Private Trader wagon may have had a small ownership branding on the lower left hand end of the wagon as the remainder of the livery faded away. Whilst that is true,it seems that the pre-war painting of PO wagons was a 'quality job' and the finish quite durable,many PO wagons [presumably the ones with the more garish liveries] were given a coat of 'battleship grey' and the ownership details applied in the method Paul describes. It appears that this was only a thin coat of paint slapped on without proper preparation and wore off within a few years leaving the underlying livery to show through. Also many repairs/replanking were left in the bare wood. If a wagon had an end door the diagonal side strapping would be painted white [over the existing livery] at the door end. However tank wagons often retained their original livery because they had warning colours Here's what Alan Coppin has written in his book 'Oil on the Rails',refering to the Railway Clearing House statements in 1939,he says: "Class A wagons were to be painted light stone up to the end of the year,when aluminium would become compulsory. The red band would be limited to the cross-heads and for only 1'6" along the sides,the frames to be painted black.This left the companies free to put their names in the space between. Unfortunately the end of 1939 also brought the outbreak of war and petrol supplies in shiny silver tanks hardly seemed appropriate! The Petroleum Board had them all painted a leaden grey." I would imagine that due to the nature of the traffic this repainting into grey would have been a priority job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 ...1939 also brought the outbreak of war and petrol supplies in shiny silver tanks hardly seemed appropriate! Talk about giving the enemy a bulls eye, no wonder they were hastily re-painted Thanks for all that DS239, I appriceate it. dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains&armour Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Well, much has allready been said. But for some modifications, have a look a this: http://myweb.tiscali...ist/warmods.jpg The site itself is also worth a visit ( http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/) And Bachmann have a very nice MoT pressed steel wartime mineral wagon in their range, see an example here: http://www.ehattons.....aspx?SID=32868 (But i,m not trying to sell their products,!) I,ve been researching this subject myself, and although there are not a lot of wartime railway photo,s around, there are some. By the end of the war there were still a lot of PO wagons left in their original livery, but mostly faded and very dirty. An airbrush comes in very handy here. But repairs with unpainted planks would still stick out like a sore thumb! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 I think I am now getting the hang of it - at last! The MoT (Ministry of Transport) wagons look good and I think a 4 Pack may well be ordered soon - then suitable weathered. Thanks for al the help guys, it's really appriceated. Cheers, Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 You'd need a lot of wooden wagons to justify 4 of those brand new steel wagons unless they were on delivery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 But for some modifications, have a look a this: http://myweb.tiscali...ist/warmods.jpg A usefull link,it illustrates what has been mentioned on this thread. Bachmann have a very nice MoT pressed steel wartime mineral wagon in their range, see an example here: http://www.ehattons.....aspx?SID=32868 They've done a couple of versions,OTTOMH there's one lettered MOWT as well,and they've also done the slope-sided 16 tonner in MOT wartime livery. I,ve been researching this subject myself, Same here,but I think that's obvious! although there are not a lot of wartime railway photo,s around, there are some. By the end of the war there were still a lot of PO wagons left in their original livery, but mostly faded and very dirty. An airbrush comes in very handy here. But repairs with unpainted planks would still stick out like a sore thumb! But the bare wood weathered down as well,it still shows up in the photo's though.. I think I am now getting the hang of it - at last! The MoT (Ministry of Transport) wagons look good and I think a 4 Pack may well be ordered soon - then suitable weathered. You'd need a lot of wooden wagons to justify 4 of those brand new steel wagons unless they were on delivery. Absolutely,If I were you Dave*,I'd just get a couple of the variations of steel 16T mineral that Bachy have done,to save renumbering,and for visual interest,but only give them minimal weathering,keeping them in fairly new condition. *Please don't feel that I'm trying to dictate to you,it's merely a suggestion,I don't know the extent of your layout,or budget,for that matter.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 You'd need a lot of wooden wagons to justify 4 of those brand new steel wagons unless they were on delivery. I need an explaination sorry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 *Please don't feel that I'm trying to dictate to you,it's merely a suggestion,I don't know the extent of your layout,or budget,for that matter.. Not at all, I'm learning and need all the help and suggestions offered, and I really appreciate it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DS239 Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I need an explaination sorry Proportions of wagons in trains on your layout, basically... There were a hell of a lot of wooden minerals [585,000 PO wagons according to post #9,of which the majority would be minerals] and only a very small number of the then new steel minerals [a lot of these were built post-war to run down the manufacturing industry...] Hope this helps.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 I need an explaination sorry The MoWT wagons were relatively scarce in comparison to the vast numbers of PO coal wagons around the system, so the only way you'd probably see four together was if they were being delivered from their builders. If you're feeling adventurous, have a go at some of the kits available from the likes of Cambrian and Parkside Dundas- both are generally fairly easy to put together (Cambrian now do one-piece underframes in a lot of their kits), and you'll find a lot of variety in apparently commonplace items such as 5-plank opens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matchless Posted January 31, 2012 Author Share Posted January 31, 2012 Ah right, now I understand, thank you. Youv'e all been a great help with this one and I've leant a lot this afternoon. Cheers, Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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