NBR Ground signal

[Lochty no more]

Not sure if this is the right forum for this, if not I`m sure someone will tell me.

The photo`s are of a NBR ground signal dating from the 1890`s, recently restored at the Kingdom of Fife Railway Preservation Society`s yard in Leven.The signal was originaly post mounted at Camperdown Junction Dundee.

The signal was spotted in a pile of scrap on a loading bank in Perth in the 1970`s, a sympathetic S & T manager aggreed to sell it to us for the scrap metal price of £16.00 providing the National Railway Museum at York didn`t want it. One week later the deal was concluded, and the ground signal guarded the wagon repair siding at Lochty station until closure. One month ago it was re-discovered in a container in a sorry state, the cast iron base had been broken and the signal was badly corroded. However it`s now back on the top line

The signal was altered by the LNER to be "slotted" it was controlled by Camperdown Junction signal box and a ground frame,requiring both levers to be pulled before the signal showed clear, either lever returned would put the signal back to danger - a rare beast. A drawing of an NBR ground signal can be found in A.A.Maclean`s book "A pictorial record of LNER Constituent Signalling",by Oxford Publishing ISBN 0860931463. the photo above shows the original flap replaced due to heavy corrosion.If any members require anymore information I will be happy to oblige.

[Graham R]

Thanks for posting this Lochty... very happy to hear that signal has survived and has probably celebrated its hundredth birthday some time back. I remember it from the 1970s. I always thought these signals looked curiously naked when the flap dropped forward to show a clear aspect. This one was very conspicuous, positioned on a small bracket half-way up Camperdown Junction's down home, to allow easier sighting at the top of the 1-in-sixtysomething incline from Dock Street tunnel. Back then I assumed it would be there for ever, so never bothered with a photo, until one day I found it had been replaced by a standard disc... which itself only lasted about five years before the 1985 resignallling scheme swept it all away.

 

The junction it controlled was also quite unusual, a facing connection from the down line through a wooden gate into the dock estate, with a single slip trailing into the up line. Although it was very close to the signalbox, as you've said there was a 4-lever frame which controlled the connection and signals. I imagine this was because any misunderstandings with shunting staff (there was a brick wall hiding the box) once the road was set could have caused an uncoupled vehicle to set off down the incline into the tunnel, which could have caused a few surprises as Tay Bridge station! It seems odd the dock lines connection wasn't made 200 yards further east on the other side of the level crossing, on the level and in easy view of the box, but I suppose it kept docks traffic disentangled from operations at Dundee East before it closed in 1959.

 

Here are a few photos:

 

The 1317 Arbroath-Dundee service (3 units) approaching the dock junction on 12 Jul 1977:

 

More detailed shots of the junction in summer 1981:

 

That's Camperdown's down home in the background, with the bracket which used to support your flap signal now sporting a ground disc. There is a second disc in the six-foot which must have read back from the Up line into the docks - not an easy manoeuvre on a greasy incline in the wet and dark, even with the guard repeating the signal with his hand lamp... Note the wee shelter for the pointsman next the gate.

 

 

The ground frame:

 

 

Finally, as a contrast, a shot of a Caley pattern Stevens drop flap not far away at Errol.

 

 

There were still a few of these around in east Scotland in the '70s: Craigo had one as I recall... and Barry West and Methil East still had NB flaps.

 

Now maybe someone has a nice clear shot of your signal in its original situation?

 

cheers

Graham

[Guest stuartp]

Thanks very much for posting these gents. I have a couple of these to make from MSE kits and I've been struggling to understand how all the brass origami fits together.

[Lochty no more]

Thanks for posting this Lochty... very happy to hear that signal has survived and has probably celebrated its hundredth birthday some time back. I remember it from the 1970s. I always thought these signals looked curiously naked when the flap dropped forward to show a clear aspect. This one was very conspicuous, positioned on a small bracket half-way up Camperdown Junction's down home, to allow easier sighting at the top of the 1-in-sixtysomething incline from Dock Street tunnel. Back then I assumed it would be there for ever, so never bothered with a photo, until one day I found it had been replaced by a standard disc... which itself only lasted about five years before the 1985 resignallling scheme swept it all away.

 

The junction it controlled was also quite unusual, a facing connection from the down line through a wooden gate into the dock estate, with a single slip trailing into the up line. Although it was very close to the signalbox, as you've said there was a 4-lever frame which controlled the connection and signals. I imagine this was because any misunderstandings with shunting staff (there was a brick wall hiding the box) once the road was set could have caused an uncoupled vehicle to set off down the incline into the tunnel, which could have caused a few surprises as Tay Bridge station! It seems odd the dock lines connection wasn't made 200 yards further east on the other side of the level crossing, on the level and in easy view of the box, but I suppose it kept docks traffic disentangled from operations at Dundee East before it closed in 1959.

 

Here are a few photos:

 

The 1317 Arbroath-Dundee service (3 units) approaching the dock junction on 12 Jul 1977:

 

More detailed shots of the junction in summer 1981:

 

That's Camperdown's down home in the background, with the bracket which used to support your flap signal now sporting a ground disc. There is a second disc in the six-foot which must have read back from the Up line into the docks - not an easy manoeuvre on a greasy incline in the wet and dark, even with the guard repeating the signal with his hand lamp... Note the wee shelter for the pointsman next the gate.

 

 

The ground frame:

 

 

Finally, as a contrast, a shot of a Caley pattern Stevens drop flap not far away at Errol.

 

 

There were still a few of these around in east Scotland in the '70s: Craigo had one as I recall... and Barry West and Methil East still had NB flaps.

 

Now maybe someone has a nice clear shot of your signal in its original situation?

 

cheers

Graham

Thanks for this post Graham, this confirms the location of the signal and adds to our knowledge of the layout at Camperdown Junction. Strange to think that the signal is now in a shed no more than a few hundred yards from the site of "Methil East" ( which was actually in Leven ) that you mention in your post.

[Lochty no more]

Thanks very much for posting these gents. I have a couple of these to make from MSE kits and I've been struggling to understand how all the brass origami fits together.

Stuart I will post some photo`s of the NBR signal next week in the clear position if that`s helpfull.

[Guest stuartp]

Yes please, that would be extremely useful.

[Graham R]

Stuart I will post some photo`s of the NBR signal next week in the clear position if that`s helpfull.

 

I'd like to see that too! It was frustratingly difficult ever seeing one of these flaps "off" - by the time I was around they were few and far between and mostly on little-used connections.

 

Pushing my luck a bit... how about a video clip, if you can get someone to lift the balance weight while filming? I have never been quite clear about how the spectacle plate swings across the front while the flap drops.

 

I dug around a bit and found a document giving some details of the signalling at Camperdown pre-1939. "Your" flap signal was Camperdown's lever 32; the down home was 29 (distant-home-starter were 28-29-30). The signal post originally also carried Camperdown No 2 Gates' distant signal, and a second little bracket on the other side, which also had a flap signal, level 3, controlling exit from Dundee East's South sidings. Camperdown was extended in 1939, and Dundee East (station) and No 2 Gates boxes abolished, so the distant would have gone then, but I don't know how long the other flap signal lasted. At that time there was a half-scissors from the harbour sidings to the down line, rather than an outside single slip. You can see this, and catch just a glimpse of "your" flap signal and the No 2 distant, in this photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/6453500917/in/set-72157628276319269 , just above the leading coach of the train.

 

cheers

Graham

[Bon Accord]

Gents,

I think the lads at Bo'ness have a few of these NBR signals in use at the West of Bo'ness station - certainly worth a look to see one in operation.

[Lochty no more]

I'd like to see that too! It was frustratingly difficult ever seeing one of these flaps "off" - by the time I was around they were few and far between and mostly on little-used connections.

 

Pushing my luck a bit... how about a video clip, if you can get someone to lift the balance weight while filming? I have never been quite clear about how the spectacle plate swings across the front while the flap drops.

 

I dug around a bit and found a document giving some details of the signalling at Camperdown pre-1939. "Your" flap signal was Camperdown's lever 32; the down home was 29 (distant-home-starter were 28-29-30). The signal post originally also carried Camperdown No 2 Gates' distant signal, and a second little bracket on the other side, which also had a flap signal, level 3, controlling exit from Dundee East's South sidings. Camperdown was extended in 1939, and Dundee East (station) and No 2 Gates boxes abolished, so the distant would have gone then, but I don't know how long the other flap signal lasted. At that time there was a half-scissors from the harbour sidings to the down line, rather than an outside single slip. You can see this, and catch just a glimpse of "your" flap signal and the No 2 distant, in this photo http://www.flickr.co...157628276319269 , just above the leading coach of the train.

 

cheers

Graham

Graham

Never posted a video before - but how hard can it be? - I will give it a go next week.

 

P.S. I hope you dont mind if I forward the photo`s from your first post to the other KFRPS members involved in the restoration of the NBR ground signal, I`m sure they will find them as interesting as I did.

[Graham R]

P.S. I hope you dont mind if I forward the photo`s from your first post to the other KFRPS members involved in the restoration of the NBR ground signal, I`m sure they will find them as interesting as I did.

 

'Course not... I hope I get to visit KFRPS someday. We lived in Crail when I was wee, somewhere I have a couple of photos of me in a kilt age 6 (Sunday afternoon after the kirk, mind!) with No 9 and the beavertail simmering in the sunshine behind. I'll, um, no' be postin' thae anes...

[Lochty no more]

Some more photo`s of our NBR ground signal this time in the on position, the original glass was a blue/green colour the yellow light from the lamp showed a green aspect. The replacement glass is more blue in colour, no it is BLUE, and with a yellow light behind it shows purple, so it needs changing. The glass spectical swings over on a cam as the flap is lowered.

On the back of the signal is the back light binder which swings over to cover the light shinning out the back of the signal when in the on position. I did video the operation of the signal which I will post as soon as I work out how.

We have dragged a 25` NBR lattice post into the shed - our next project has arrived - windlass,NBR lamp,finial & lower quadrant arm various other bits & bobs - what could possibly go wrong?

[Graham R]

These are very helpful shots, thanks. So the spectacle/blinder are just pushed up by the cam when on, and fall down to cover the lamp by gravity when off? There's no spring or positive linkage ?

[scotcent]

The HMRS Journal Vol 9 No 5 has a drawing and description of the CR version of the ground signal, as part of a series of articles by Charles Underhill on CR signalling. When the flap was dropped, an internal cam pushed up a green spectacle over the lamp. The weight of this cam and the box with the green spectacle assisted in counterbalancing the red spectacle plate.

 

Allan F

[Graham R]

Thanks, I wondered how the Caley version worked! Their version sounds a lot more snow and ice-proof, with the working bits inside next the lamp.

[Lochty no more]

e

These are very helpful shots, thanks. So the spectacle/blinder are just pushed up by the cam when on, and fall down to cover the lamp by gravity when off? There's no spring or positive linkage ?

Yes no spring or positive linkage, I am getting very frustrated at my computer failing to load the video which clearly shows the operation of the signal, perhaps shouting at it may help, failing that a series of photo`s may sufice. It is our intention to post mount the flap signal on a NBR lattice post ( keep it safe from scrap metal thieves ) as the starting signal from our new platform at Kirkland (found a photo of Tillicoultry station courtesy of andy carr .net showing a signal which we hope to re - create ). Note how the flap signal is mounted at the extremity of the bracket to allow the lamp carrier & lamp on the windlass to pass up through the bracket without fouling the signal on L/H brackets the flap signal was mounted centrally on the bracket.- modellers take note

[Lochty no more]

Gents,

I think the lads at Bo'ness have a few of these NBR signals in use at the West of Bo'ness station - certainly worth a look to see one in operation.

Got any photo`s I would love to see them, I had no idea there were other examples out there.

[Northern Maiden]

Got any photo`s I would love to see them, I had no idea there were other examples out there.

 

We have a working example at Bo'ness, its used to protect the headshunt near the signal box.

 

 

I constructed the MSE kit of this signal and with a little jiggery-pokery got it to work on the layout (albiet without the swinging spectacle) but its a nice change from the usual disc.

[Bon Accord]

Northern Maiden,

Thanks for that - my memory isn't failing me after all! I'm currently in Bo'ness at the moment (visiting) and I think shall bimble along with the dog for a snap or two.

[Lochty no more]

We have a working example at Bo'ness, its used to protect the headshunt near the signal box.

 

 

I constructed the MSE kit of this signal and with a little jiggery-pokery got it to work on the layout (albiet without the swinging spectacle) but its a nice change from the usual disc.

Thanks for posting this interesting photo, I notice that the weights are of a different pattern to ours.

[Lochty no more]

Thanks for posting this Lochty... very happy to hear that signal has survived and has probably celebrated its hundredth birthday some time back. I remember it from the 1970s. I always thought these signals looked curiously naked when the flap dropped forward to show a clear aspect. This one was very conspicuous, positioned on a small bracket half-way up Camperdown Junction's down home, to allow easier sighting at the top of the 1-in-sixtysomething incline from Dock Street tunnel. Back then I assumed it would be there for ever, so never bothered with a photo, until one day I found it had been replaced by a standard disc... which itself only lasted about five years before the 1985 resignallling scheme swept it all away.

 

The junction it controlled was also quite unusual, a facing connection from the down line through a wooden gate into the dock estate, with a single slip trailing into the up line. Although it was very close to the signalbox, as you've said there was a 4-lever frame which controlled the connection and signals. I imagine this was because any misunderstandings with shunting staff (there was a brick wall hiding the box) once the road was set could have caused an uncoupled vehicle to set off down the incline into the tunnel, which could have caused a few surprises as Tay Bridge station! It seems odd the dock lines connection wasn't made 200 yards further east on the other side of the level crossing, on the level and in easy view of the box, but I suppose it kept docks traffic disentangled from operations at Dundee East before it closed in 1959.

 

Here are a few photos:

 

The 1317 Arbroath-Dundee service (3 units) approaching the dock junction on 12 Jul 1977:

 

More detailed shots of the junction in summer 1981:

 

That's Camperdown's down home in the background, with the bracket which used to support your flap signal now sporting a ground disc. There is a second disc in the six-foot which must have read back from the Up line into the docks - not an easy manoeuvre on a greasy incline in the wet and dark, even with the guard repeating the signal with his hand lamp... Note the wee shelter for the pointsman next the gate.

 

 

The ground frame:

 

 

Finally, as a contrast, a shot of a Caley pattern Stevens drop flap not far away at Errol.

 

 

There were still a few of these around in east Scotland in the '70s: Craigo had one as I recall... and Barry West and Methil East still had NB flaps.

 

Now maybe someone has a nice clear shot of your signal in its original situation?

 

cheers

Graham

 

Found some photo`s courtesy of Peter Westwater this is the flap signal for Methil power station ( as it was built in 1954 it`s fair to say BR reused an old NBR ground signal here )