Tucking Mill

[nick_bastable]

would the wheels turn down and still fit ? or is a 4f chassis suitable I think ( probably wrong)  the wheel base is the same?

 

Nick

[CF MRC]

How very tedious and a retrograde step, design wise.  You could convert the 2mm wheels to run on the Farish axles by bushing them with acetal or similar. An alternative might be to slap some finescale frames on the outside of the chassis block - bit like the Rankin style chassis a few years ago. 

 

Tim

[Valentin]

For the Class C I built I used the Fence House's ‘UNIVERSAL’ 0-6-0 loco and tender chassis (8’-0” + 8’-6” w/b) for 10mm dia wheels. I wonder if this will fit to the Graham Farish body...

[Izzy]

Thanks for this information Jerry. It is disappointing given all the work that must have been involved in producing the conversion parts. I wonder if the change is because of the cast footplate, although the Jinty has one, and if other future locos such as the 8F will also revert to this design format. 

 

Izzy

[2mm Andy]

2 hours ago, Valentin said:

For the Class C I built I used the Fence House's ‘UNIVERSAL’ 0-6-0 loco and tender chassis (8’-0” + 8’-6” w/b) for 10mm dia wheels. I wonder if this will fit to the Graham Farish body...

 

Valentin,

 

I suspect the Fence Houses chassis won't fit - if I remember correctly, it has been produced to 1:152 scale whereas the Farish loco will be scaled at 1:148, so the wheels won't line up with the splashers.

 

Andy

[Nick Mitchell]

Do you think turning off the flanges/treads and fitting Association tyres to the Farish wheels like I did with the WD would work?

Do the pickups bear on the backs of the wheels or the treads?

 

Nick.

[queensquare]

16 hours ago, CF MRC said:

How very tedious and a retrograde step, design wise.  You could convert the 2mm wheels to run on the Farish axles by bushing them with acetal or similar. An alternative might be to slap some finescale frames on the outside of the chassis block - bit like the Rankin style chassis a few years ago. 

 

Tim

 

From a 2FS perspective I'd have to agree Tim, particularly as our already available conversion etch would have fitted. Of your two options, the former would involve some serious lathe work, the latter would require all the chassis detail like brakes, sandboxes etc grinding off to allow for the replacement frames which would be a shame. I'm inclined to wait for bodies to become available as spares and put a completely new chassis under it. As Nick says above they are an 8' x 8'6" wheelbase so either the 4F or Bob Jones generic chassis kit would work.

 

Jerry

 

Edited to note that the brakes are on the Keeper plate, not the block - I should look more closely at my own pictures!

Edited July 13, 2019 by queensquare

[65179]

Wouldn't the Raithby 4F replacement chassis have the same issue as Andy has mentioned with Bob's J26/7 chassis, or can you get away with the 2mm/N wheelbase discrepancy? Otherwise would any of the Worsley Works chassis fit? There's an O, blackmotor and C2X at least in Allen's 2mm list which could be available in N if any have a suitable wheelbase.

 

Simon 

[queensquare]

11 hours ago, Nick Mitchell said:

Do you think turning off the flanges/treads and fitting Association tyres to the Farish wheels like I did with the WD would work?

Do the pickups bear on the backs of the wheels or the treads?

 

Nick.

 

It probably would work Nick, the pickups bear on the back of the wheels.

 

20 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Wouldn't the Raithby 4F replacement chassis have the same issue as Andy has mentioned with Bob's J26/7 chassis, or can you get away with the 2mm/N wheelbase discrepancy? Otherwise would any of the Worsley Works chassis fit? There's an O, blackmotor and C2X at least in Allen's 2mm list which could be available in N if any have a suitable wheelbase.

 

Simon 

 

I suspect you would get away with it Simon. I dont know about the others without looking up the wheel base.

 

There are numerous ways it could be done and its no more difficult than many of the builds/conversions we did for years but the great shame is its back to lathe work or replacement chassis which puts off many entrants to 2FS. The system Farish had adopted, and hopefully will revert to, allowed the Association to offer as close to simple drop in replacements as we are likely to get. 

I cant blame Farish, I doubt if sales to Association members would amount to more than a couple of dozen which in the grande scheme of things is small fry.

 

Jerry

[DavidLong]

The common denominator in the evolution of the RTR split frame chassis with bearings is Colin Albright. It was developed while he was at Bachmann and without knowing exact timelines he may well have been involved in the design of all the locos which have used this system. This has continued with his involvement with the NGS Hunslet shunter which will also be convertable to 2FS.  RevolutioN have also confirmed to Jerry that the forthcoming 56xx uses the same system. On the occasions that I have spoken to Ben Ando he is quite supportive of the idea that locos with couple wheelbases, while being produced principally for N, can be converted to 2FS. Although the sales to 2FS modellers may be small compared to those to N gaugers they do represent additional sales with no detrimental effect on the main market. It seems a shame that Bachmann haven't taken the same view.

I also agree that this is a worry for the revamped 8F. Anyone got any Bachmann contacts?

 

David

[justin1985]

1 hour ago, DavidLong said:

The common denominator in the evolution of the RTR split frame chassis with bearings is Colin Albright. It was developed while he was at Bachmann and without knowing exact timelines he may well have been involved in the design of all the locos which have used this system. This has continued with his involvement with the NGS Hunslet shunter which will also be convertable to 2FS.  RevolutioN have also confirmed to Jerry that the forthcoming 56xx uses the same system. On the occasions that I have spoken to Ben Ando he is quite supportive of the idea that locos with couple wheelbases, while being produced principally for N, can be converted to 2FS. Although the sales to 2FS modellers may be small compared to those to N gaugers they do represent additional sales with no detrimental effect on the main market. It seems a shame that Bachmann haven't taken the same view.

I also agree that this is a worry for the revamped 8F. Anyone got any Bachmann contacts?

 

David

 

Yup this was my understanding too. I believe Colin "is" Sonic models, who are producing the 56xx and VEA van for RevolutioN. I think there was a suggestion this was a prelude to striking out with a standalone range to be sold via model shops?

 

I'm sure I've heard some of the whingers who complain about any model with coreless motors (presumably fearing it won't work with their 1960s controller) also tend to have a "thing" against split frame chassis designs? Is there still a bit of a bias against split frames from those more used to other methods in larger scales? 

 

J

[Donw]

In other scales the main object is the thought of extra work. If you are using plastic centered wheels there is the need to connect the rim to the hub either source or make split axles. If you are not having problems fitting pick-ups there is not the incentive to change. I know some 0 gaugers who do prefer split axles and if you are using metal wheels then split axles works well.  Unless of course you are going in for moving valve gear. Oddly enough the system of shorting the wheels to one side on a loco and to the other on a tender is quite popular in 0 gauge and  this often means shorting out the Slaters wheels. 

Our wheels are designed for split axles and doing anything else would mean putting an insulation break in the wheels. 

 

I am not sure what you mean about 60s controllers, true  the reistance type would not work well with low current demand motors but they didn't really work well with anything.  The better variable transformer types work well with any motor and so would the early transistor type using an emitter follower circuit. It was the 70s and 80s Pulse width controllers and the feedback types that gave trouble with coreless motors. The feedback was too coarse to suit the coreless type. The DCC decoders have got round the pulse width problems by using an H bridge circuit running at up 50Kz.

 

Don

 

I am minded that we are encroaching on Jerry's Tucking Mill thread  would this be better elsewhere Jerry?

Edited July 13, 2019 by Donw

[queensquare]

More than happy for the discussion to continue here - its only when people start talking about WH Smith and the like I get bored and grumpy! 

 

Jerry

[Chris Higgs]

9 hours ago, 65179 said:

Wouldn't the Raithby 4F replacement chassis have the same issue as Andy has mentioned with Bob's J26/7 chassis, or can you get away with the 2mm/N wheelbase discrepancy? Otherwise would any of the Worsley Works chassis fit? There's an O, blackmotor and C2X at least in Allen's 2mm list which could be available in N if any have a suitable wheelbase.

 

Simon 

 

You want the Farish Jinty conversion chassis 3-650 as this has the correct wheelbase in the correct scale. You will have to sort out the gearbox yourself.

 

I do have artwork for a 4F chassis in 1:148 scale but it has never quite made it onto a production etch yet.

 

Chris

 

[Chris Higgs]

On 12/07/2019 at 18:41, Donw said:

Thanks for the advice Jerry. The Neil Ballantine wheels are not a solution for everyone. I doubt there are that many around by now.  I presume the other options are getting the wheels turned down or building a new  chassis.

 

Don

 

If you could find a set that ran true in the first place...

 

That is one less expense for me then, as the C has just been deleted from the Rule 1 purchase list. If the bodies appear as spares (not all do) I may well run up a chassis. The bodies quite probably have a large chunk of the bottom of the boiler missing.

 

Chris

Edited July 13, 2019 by Chris Higgs

[ijmsmith]

How about just sawing up the middle of the chassis block (halfway, fill with epoxy then the other half after it's cured)? Crude but it could work...

Edited July 14, 2019 by ijmsmith
left out closing bracket...

[Atso]

That's a real shame as I think the Farish split frame system is excellent. Didn't somebody write an article in the 2mm Magazine last year about finescaling a Farish B1? IIRC they using a lathe to drill a hole in the center of 2mm wheel sets and then used an anodised aluminum axle to ensure electrical isolation. Might be a solution...

[2mm Andy]

1 hour ago, Atso said:

That's a real shame as I think the Farish split frame system is excellent. Didn't somebody write an article in the 2mm Magazine last year about finescaling a Farish B1? IIRC they using a lathe to drill a hole in the center of 2mm wheel sets and then used an anodised aluminum axle to ensure electrical isolation. Might be a solution...

 

That sounds like the late Bill Blackburn's article from early 2016. Bill was the mastermind behind the drop-in diesel wheels which use aluminium anodised axles in their assembly. I do recall Bill trying to produce steam loco drop-in wheels in a similar way, but he found that it was very difficult to get the wheels onto the axles squarely and accurately quartered (and notes this in the B1 article - what worked for the 7mm diesel wheels wasn't so easily done with 12mm driving wheels). Also worth noting that the Farish B1 has a tender drive, with the loco wheels being undriven, and the chassis appears to be of a different design to the C class (I think it pre-dates the split frame chassis design). Having said that, if anyone wants to have a go, I'm sure a few of the anodised axles might be able to be purchased via the Sales Officer on request.

 

Andy

[Chris Higgs]

14 hours ago, 2mm Andy said:

 

That sounds like the late Bill Blackburn's article from early 2016. Bill was the mastermind behind the drop-in diesel wheels which use aluminium anodised axles in their assembly. I do recall Bill trying to produce steam loco drop-in wheels in a similar way, but he found that it was very difficult to get the wheels onto the axles squarely and accurately quartered (and notes this in the B1 article - what worked for the 7mm diesel wheels wasn't so easily done with 12mm driving wheels). Also worth noting that the Farish B1 has a tender drive, with the loco wheels being undriven, and the chassis appears to be of a different design to the C class (I think it pre-dates the split frame chassis design). Having said that, if anyone wants to have a go, I'm sure a few of the anodised axles might be able to be purchased via the Sales Officer on request.

 

Andy

 

I have a Farish Jubilee converted by Bill using the anodised axles as a testbed. It doesn't work too well as the 13mm drivers do not run that true and the anodised axles are not polished enough to rotate freely - it is tender drive and so the loco wheels are undriven.

 

It might work better with 10mm drivers which are driven but you had better be skilled, and prepared for stoicism if you end up wrecking a brand new loco.

 

You'll probably have to have the gear specially made as well.

 

  Chris

Edited July 15, 2019 by Chris Higgs

[nick_bastable]

Jerry

 

can I ask for a picture of the body insides without the chassis block I wonder if a Jinty chassis may fit as suggested without major work

 

Nick

 

 

[Izzy]

Would I be right to think that this might be one situation where, if they were at all feasible, 3D printed centres onto which suitable sized 2mm SA rims could be pressed could be an answer? I know missy tried the idea and David Bigcheeseplant is currently doing so here

- see the last few posts.

Having a good sized boss on the back to aid axle seating and concentricity wouldn't be a problem I would guess given the narrower frames. I have no skills/knowledge in this area, 3D/cad, so can’t attempt it myself I’m afraid.

 

Izzy

[Chris Higgs]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

Would I be right to think that this might be one situation where, if they were at all feasible, 3D printed centres onto which suitable sized 2mm SA rims could be pressed could be an answer? I know missy tried the idea and David Bigcheeseplant is currently doing so here

- see the last few posts.

Having a good sized boss on the back to aid axle seating and concentricity wouldn't be a problem I would guess given the narrower frames. I have no skills/knowledge in this area, 3D/cad, so can’t attempt it myself I’m afraid.

 

Izzy

 

Several have tried (me too with a Farish 08 which basically has the same construction as the C) but I am not clear if anyone got to a 2mm/N wheel that really ran well. Sent mine to Alan Smith for testing and comment, he indicated you have to get the degree of tightness bang on, otherwise they either fall out of the rims or distort as they pressed in.

 

Interestingly I did not find strength of the fine 3D printed spokes to be a problem, they seemed quite robust.

 

If you get a set of true-running wheels, the next issue is to set up  those pickups reliably touching the rather narrow rims.

 

Chris

Edited July 16, 2019 by Chris Higgs

[2mm Andy]

6 hours ago, Izzy said:

Would I be right to think that this might be one situation where, if they were at all feasible, 3D printed centres onto which suitable sized 2mm SA rims could be pressed could be an answer? I know missy tried the idea and David Bigcheeseplant is currently doing so here.

Having a good sized boss on the back to aid axle seating and concentricity wouldn't be a problem I would guess given the narrower frames. I have no skills/knowledge in this area, 3D/cad, so can’t attempt it myself I’m afraid.

 

Izzy

 

Julia (Missy) has done some more work recently on 3d printed wheels - see photo below, which shows a 3d printed plastic wheel centre used as a master for lost wax casting. She did experiment a bit and machined the plastic wheel centre to fit an Association rim to see if it would work. The beauty of the 3d printing is that it's easy to take a full size drawing and model all the nuances (tapered spokes, fillets at rim/boss, etc.) which are so difficult to product by hand-made methods.

I've also attached a photo showing the comparison between the above wheel (on the right) with a Mk4 2mm Scale Association wheel (on the left).

Anyway, hope they're of interest.

 

Andy

[richbrummitt]

They are. If this is a probable Mk5 wheel what is the likely timescale to available from Shop 3? 

[2mm Andy]

14 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

They are. If this is a probable Mk5 wheel what is the likely timescale to available from Shop 3? 

 

Sorry Rich - it's a private project at present, although there is no reason why it couldn't be adopted by the Association in future if agreement could be reached. The wheel centres still need machining though (although there are experiments underway to reduce this to an absolute minimum) which is a problem for the Association given Gordon Solloway's recent retirement from loco wheel production (he is still offering the wheel turning service to members).

 

The Association product development team is working on 3d printed metal wheel centres at the moment in an effort to reduce the machining work to an absolute minimum. They are still very much under development though - I'm hoping to see some samples at Saturday's committee meeting.

 

Andy

Edited July 16, 2019 by 2mm Andy