bubbles2 Posted October 16, 2015 Share Posted October 16, 2015 Hi Dave, I'm following this wagon build with interest, I would very much like 1 or 2 of these for my west country main line set between the late 1950s and 1985, a very transitional timespan I know but that is my period of interest. I have 1 question, you say you filed 0.7mm from the top and bottom of the long U sections, is 0.7mm the total depth of the U section? Looking forward to your further posts, Geoff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Hi Geoff, I'll post an image of what I mean on here once I've started the components for number 2. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 16, 2015 Author Share Posted October 16, 2015 Hi Geoff, Associated Octel at Hayle closed in 1973....no reason for these wagons to travel to the West Country after this date. This should clarify the 0.7mm issue.... The sections of brass channel for the headstock and solebars/longitudinals are the same. In order for the solebars/longitudinals to fit into the rear of the headstock it is necessary to needle file 0.7mm from top & bottom (right & left in this view) from each end of each (remove the top & bottom web for the end 0.7mm on each but don't file the headstock). .05mm UNI PIN fine line markers are ideal for drawing cut lines on the brass channel I use a Coffmann clamp..... http://www.coffmaneng.com/rightclamp/2011rc-order.cfm Branchlines sell them in the UK......for holding joints together/at easy angles to apply a soldering iron whilst I work on them (my clamp is the heat resistant one specially for this purpose) Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted October 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2015 Currently in Barnsley hospital so can't post any pics, but I use an artillery of jigs and things to construct my brass chassis, Dave is a far more skilled artisan than I! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 .....hope it isn't anything serious Mike and that you escape soon. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted October 17, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2015 Thanks Dave. Not serious for me thankfully, visiting only. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 17, 2015 Author Share Posted October 17, 2015 Aft'noon all, This scan of part of the Charles Roberts bromine tank underframe GA drawing (by kind permission of Trevor Mann) is mostly similar to the style seen in close up images of the Grazebrook underframe displayed clearly at the non-verandah end of the wagon. The principle variation is that the centre longitudinals are parallel/straight to the rear of the headstock on the Grazebrook wagon and not flared as per the Charles Roberts version. The end of the barrel cradle on the Grazebrook wagon appears on one image to coincide with the side to side frame strengtheners seen to the bottom of this scan....their positioning will obviously affect the length of the diagonal strengtheners attached to them. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Aft'noon all, The joys of scratchbuilding marched on this morning. In the absence of scale drawings for the Grazebrook bromine tank and in an attempt to get the most accurate barrel layout (fixtures & fittings etc) for my models I started with what I knew....namely a works GA drawing for the barrel & fittings on the Charles Roberts bromine tank. This barrel is dimensionally similar to the Grazebrook and following an hour of comparing juxtaposed close up pictures of the complete wagons detail for detail, taking screen measurements of the GA with a ruler from the laptop (as this is a scaled drawing a multiplication factor could be used to determine dimensions not labelled), I realised that the barrel and fittings are highly likely to be standard between the two manufacturers wagons. The centre line for each of the barrel top features is 14.66mm each side of the barrel centre line. See.... Part scan repro by kind permission of Trevor Mann One of the new realisations gained from this mornings efforts is the ratio of barrel end to straight tube section to barrel end. This materialised at 5.9mm/50.86mm/5.9mm in 4mm and it instantly dawned on me that my earlier attempts at barrel ends were considerably too shallow, didn't replicate the scale drawing outline and required too long a straight barrel section to make up the overall length. This made the overall result look wrong when barrel straps were tested against the model as the barrel end joints were in the wrong place.The lead lining of the prototype barrel and its toxic contents help to explain the limited dimensions of the barrel and its fittings compared with the overall weight spread across two axles. An order for .25 inch brass tube for the flanged diameter atop the barrel and various plasticard sheet thicknesses fired off to Eileen's Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D869 Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Hi Dave, I agree that the barrels are near identical between the Grazebrook and the Roberts - apart from addition of the fixing flange on the Roberts of course. It's quite likely that same company made the barrels for both the Grazebrook and Roberts tanks. I think there are some small differences in capacity on the diagrams and/or RIV data panels but in our scales I don't think it makes any difference. The catwalk arrangements are also the same. Chassis-wise, the axleguards and buffers are similar, but apart from that not much - for example the wheelbases differ. Basically I think that the Grazebrook belongs to an older and simpler generation in terms of the chassis design, braking system and the fixing of the tank. It's a bit of a 'missing link', which is probably why it appeals. Regards, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Hi Andy, It is the difference in character which I seek to replicate by modelling both. I can see the differences in dome profile between the two and the slightly thicker top flange plate on the Grazebrook when looking at the other barrel top fitting. I assume that your 'fixing flange' terminology and the term wing plate are interchangeable? Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 Evenin' all, 1.5mm styrene sheet is easy to snip into the blanks req. for bonding together ready for shaping into a barrel end.... ....4 thicknesses will cover the 5.9mm req whilst a 5th will form the locating disc in the barrel tube Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 Very impressive craftsmanship Dave, I look forward to the rest of the tutorial in due course! Kind regards, Jock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 21, 2015 Author Share Posted October 21, 2015 ....apologies for the style Jock...I just find it easier to tell others the route and the methods I use (inc. sources) so that they have the option of trying, or at least understanding my path. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted October 21, 2015 Share Posted October 21, 2015 ....apologies for the style Jock...I just find it easier to tell others the route and the methods I use (inc. sources) so that they have the option of trying, or at least understanding my path. Dave No need to be sorry Dave, an excellent concept and one I heartily applaud, Kind regards, Jock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted October 31, 2015 Author Share Posted October 31, 2015 Aft'noon all, A reasonably productive session today has seen two Brassmasters axle-spacing jigs modified for use with Ultrascale wheelsets (the plastic bosses on the back of the wheels prevent an unmodified jig being used).....considerable care and attention req. to ensure that all is square before the two halves were soldered back together.... Pre-production samples of the 2ft RIV buffer arrived today from Dave Franks specifically for these two Grazebrook tanks. The production version will have a smoother finish and more prominent ribs on the back of the buffer head Bill Bedford heavy duty W irons have been modified to suit the exposed style of underframe on these tanks....a heavier gauge of brass plate was first soldered beneath the horizontal of the W iron before the original mid-section was sliced out with a disc cutter and the surfaces filed.... ....the ride height is close but will probably need a finer gauge of guitar wire in the suspension as well as the weight of the barrel & fittings to get it spot on ....a test fitting of the modified W iron in the frames....not correctly positioned or orientated, simply a test for ride height & the idea of modifying the W iron Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 5, 2015 Author Share Posted November 5, 2015 Mornin' all, More good fortune today in terms of prototypical information for a Hayle Associated Octel rake for TG. A group of us have been researching this traffic for some time but some wagon types used have proved more elusive than others esp. in late 1960s guise. The picture below from a currently unknown photographer shows the livery style of the early FW Berk demountable bromine tanks 1967-69. These served FWB plants at St Albans and Stratford, E. London, amongst other destinations. Shunting into Associated Octel, Hayle The livery time line of these tanks is diverse....here are a couple of the tanks in bright yellow by 1971 https://www.flickr.com/photos/96859208@N07/9709821399/in/album-72157635358450067/ The livery development of the Octel demountable tanks is another story Components ordered for a part scratchbuild/part kit attempt at 2 of these wagons. We are fortunate to have dimensioned drawings for the demountable tanks. First attempts at matching the differing silver grey shades of the Berk and Octel tanks were rewarded with the arrival of the dull LNER silver grey from Phoenix today....apparently not too much blending req. for the Octel shade....the Berk shade appears darker. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 6, 2015 Author Share Posted November 6, 2015 Mornin' all, Busy with the forming set this morning creating barrel ends.... http://redroosteruk.com/forming-doming-dapping-swage-metal-shaping-kit-punches-jewellery-craft-tool-set/ The barrel has been sliced and filed down to 50.86mm....getting close Checking that the ends are square to the barrel One of the discs is filed to fit in the barrel end to act as the locating ring for the finished dome A 5.9mm depth dome is req. at each end of the barrel The plastic tube superglued to the approx. centre of the styrene discs acts as a handle for working the discs into shape. Lining several of the domes in the forming block with a sundial of coarse sandpaper allows the barrel end to be progressively formed down to the required dimensions.... A sundial of sandpaper cut from flat sheet then held in place with Duck tape. Spinning the discs with light pressure in the lined dome sands them into shape Testing, testing..... A reasonable first attempt....some work to do in terms of transition curves/general shape. The concentric rings of the styrene sandwich will act as a guide for flattening the nose of the barrel end, whilst an additional disc twixt barrel and the back of the barrel end should allow for forming the transition curves in that area. GA part scan by kind permission of Trevor Mann Some new mandrels ordered for another test.....so that the gentler part of the radiussed barrel end can be formed in the block above but the remaining curves be added whist the workpiece is spinning in the drill chuck. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Aft'noon, all, Some frame detail added in today.... ....mounting the wheelsets/W irons in the axle spacing jig (15 feet spacing for this wagon) allows some measurements to be taken... ....using the GA frame measurements for the Charles Roberts bromine tank the individual detail pieces come out at 10mm... ....close up of frame end detail as per Grazebrook images and Roberts GA drawing.... GA part scan courtesy of Trevor Mann The main difference between the Charles Roberts underframe and the Grazebrook is that the Grazebrook centre longitudinals do not flare out behind the headstock Removing one side of the U channel forming the frame cross members allows the two W irons to be a snug fit in the frames against the frame end detail. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock67B Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 Dave, A marvellous demonstration of adapting your methods to solve problems as they arise - the end product should win awards! Kind regards, Jock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hi Jock, Thank you for the kind thought....my motivation in presenting this thread is to encourage those new to scratchbuilding to have a go. Rgds Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Holt Posted November 9, 2015 Share Posted November 9, 2015 I hope you don't mind me saying so, but the profile of the end you have made doesn't look right and is not as shown on the partial GA drawing. The drawing shows what is called a torispherical or semi-elliptical shape, which is commonly used on pressure vessels/tanks. If you consider the drawing, there is a vertical line near the end of the cylindrical tank body. This is where the end is welded to the cylinder. The actual dished profile starts somewhat to the left of this line (often 3 or 4 inches), known as the tangent line and the depth of the end is measured from here (your 5.9 mm?). A torispherical end consists of a central spherical portion joined to the cylinder by part of a torus. You might be able to measure the radii of the two parts by scaling the drawing, but typically, the spherical radius would be between 1.0 and 0.8 of the cylinder diameter and the torus between 0.1 and 0.157 of the cylinder diameter. A spherical radius of 0.9D and a torisperical radius of 0.157D would approximate to a 2:1 semi-elliptical shape. Sorry to be picky, but it would be a shame to end up with an unrealistic tank shape. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 9, 2015 Author Share Posted November 9, 2015 Hi Dave, The first attempt with the forming block (shown above) was simply to test the production of small diameter barrel ends using this technique. Once the new mandrels arrive I shall combine forming the gentlest radius of the barrel end in the forming block, with spinning the piece (held by the mandrel) in a modellers drill to allow the transitions to be created. It might take 3 or 4 attempts but I certainly won't be including any less than correct barrel ends in the scratchbuild, hence the juxta-positioning of the GA outline next to each attempt. The one thing that was correct with the first attempt was the 5.9mm thickness. Rgds Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 10, 2015 Author Share Posted November 10, 2015 Aft'noon all, Probably the most important stage so far. With the W irons soldered into place in the frames whilst the axle jig held all square, it was time to check the 'attitude' of the rolling chassis. It took some time, tweaking all variables, to achieve all 4 corners of the chassis at the same height whilst standing on a flat glass surface.... The closest V hanger match at the moment is this one from Ambis....dimensions to be checked against close up images Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted November 11, 2015 Author Share Posted November 11, 2015 Aft'noon all, A parcel from Rumney models today included the underframes for two variants of Lowfit in Berk/Octel traffic (BR & Morton style brakegear)...a third will need to wait for Justin to release the LNER underframe etch in Autumn next year (this can be used with an early style body to recreate that particular variant in Berk/Octel traffic).... Lowfit bodies currently en route from Parkside Dundas. Useful notes kindly supplied for the Lowfit build.... The Lowfits converted to FWB demountable tanks were - B 450831, B 452444, B 453294 and B 453419.By my reckoning, B 450831 is the only example to feature the combination of earlier pattern bodywork (four vertical body-side ribs) with LNER clasp vacuum brake. The remaining three would all have had the later pattern bodywork (nine vertical body-side ribs), B 452444 in combination with RCH 4-shoe vacuum brake while both B 453294 and B 453419 would have had BR clasp vacuum brake The other two etches in today's delivery are for complete Plate wagons used to carry steel plate to Barnstaple for Appledore shipyard. Plate wagons departing Barnstaple for Exeter...photographer unknown at present time These will be formed in similar consists as 3 empty/loaded Trestrol's http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/north_devon_line_okehampton_web_optimised/285%20Trestrol%20wagons%20Barnstaple.html and 5 empty/loaded bogie bolster E's http://www.cyber-heritage.co.uk/north_devon_line_okehampton_web_optimised/258%20Steel%20wagon%20Barnstaple.html also in the same traffic. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DLT Posted November 11, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 11, 2015 Some lovely work Dave, and thanks for the technique for producing domed ends, most ingenious. And I like the "aide memoire" on the caliper... Dave.T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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