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Tor Giffard 2 1951-71 in P4 - North Devon/Cornwall LSWR (former routes)


Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71

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Evenin' all,

 

Close scrutiny of 1960s/70s and 80s images of the Grazebrook bromine tanks has highlighted some of the changes undergone during their working life:

 

1960s: Original numbering style (500 300 etc....there is a dot between the two blocks of 3 numbers on some early to mid 60s paintwork) pre UIC: large twin black traffic stars on the barrel; black walkways, ladders and timbers around the middle of the barrel ends; black extends higher up barrel straps than in any later livery stage; UIC numbers appeared from 1968; no bromine lettering on barrel; whitish edges to footsteps up to platform; white flashes on ends of barrel; ferry securing lugs black; handbrake wheel white;

 

1970s: UIC numbering; no traffic stars; ladders mostly grey; timbers around middle of barrel ends now grey; grey walkways; bromine lettering on barrel in red; revised white flashes on end of barrel; ferry securing lugs yellow; Hazchem labelling from 1977ish; late 70s bottom of ladders painted white; handbrake wheel white;

 

1980s: Revised UIC numbering; some with a different style of axlebox; ladders mostly grey; grey walkways; timbers around middle of barrel ends in grey; bromine lettering on barrel in black; no white flashes on end of barrel; ferry securing lugs yellow; Hazchem labelling; bottom of ladders white; handbrake wheel white or black;

 

Build features: twin vacuum cylinders with changeover lever; air piped; style and number of anchor mounts for ferry crossings varied between wagons but appear to have been carried throughout; 2ft UIC buffers; lifting link handbrake gear as well as handwheel/platform; double link suspension with heavy duty W irons; screw couplings; 3 hole disc wheels;

 

I'll add to these categories as the images are scrutinised further

 

Dave

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Mornin' all,

 

A niggling doubt about the squareness of fit of one of the W irons saw it consigned to the bin and a replacement soldered in, which did sit square. In moments of doubt about a sound chassis I can hear Richard Oldfield (Barrowmore wagon builder who passed on many of his skills to me) in my minds ear saying "if it isn't right then go no further because there comes a point where you can't correct it and the wagon becomes many scrap hours....go back and solve the problem whilst you can"....surprisingly enough the rolling chassis now sits and rides better. Yes it means that I have to redo some frame detail but more important it is that it is going onto a wagon which should look and run well. 

 

Once I'm happy that the frame is square and the 'attitude' of the chassis (all corners riding at the same height) is right then I leave a workbench set of axles/wheels and suspension in place as the soldered components are added to the assembly....this includes during trips through the Ultrasound bath....  

post-7795-0-70659300-1447581141.jpg

 

Some components have to be adapted for a scratchbuild. Here one of the Ambis V hangers is part modified to match the style on the Grazebrook. Crucially the cross-shaft centre line is in line with the axlebox centres and square to the centre of the chassis. A little solder fill & file will create the continuous diagonal edges right up to the underside of the solebar....

post-7795-0-00059100-1447581186.jpg

 

Dave

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Mornin' all,

 

Whilst frame/chassis progress is waiting for more brass sections to arrive, the mandrels for the barrel end forming processes are now here and form the basis for todays efforts....

 

A new set of styrene discs were superglued together before a small centre hole the diameter of the mandrel screw was drilled through them. This was then opened out at the dome end to allow the head of the screw to be concealed within the discs whilst the dome was formed. Using the minidrill at low speed prevented the styrene melting as it was sanded into shape. The largest dome in the forming block was used to create the gentle radius at the head of the barrel end first .....

post-7795-0-55793400-1447674678.jpg

 

....bending aluminium strip over forming bars of various diameters created a set of French curves to which finer grade sandpaper could be secured with double sided stickytape ready for creating the more subtle radii transitions of the dome end. Continuously curving forming areas create seamless radii without flat spots. Using the minidrill considerably speeds up the sanding operations and care has to be taken not to take too much off. With the discs gripped by the mandrel it is a quick job to bring the outer diameter of the discs into round and down to the overall diameter of the barrel end.... 

post-7795-0-50910600-1447674735.jpg

 

....increasing the magnification of the GA drawing on the laptop screen to the approximate proportions of the model barrel allows the screen profile to be used as a template whilst profile sanding is carried out. With some practice an exact match is achieved. The screw head hole will be filled & sanded once I'm happy that both barrel ends produce a symmetrical outcome....

post-7795-0-30344300-1447683957.jpg

 

....the closing position of the barrel assembly as the light fades today....both barrel ends made to the correct dimensions (a little light sanding/profiling of the barrel end-barrel joint area will be needed pre-painting) and the barrel top tube soldered in place. This is yet to be filed flat at 1.8mm and be fitted with twin flanges (shan't be bothering with the asbestos gasket twixt the flange plates). Archer rivet detail will form the numerous bolt heads on this model inc. around the circumference of these flange plates. The centrelines of the hinged domed cover atop the barrel and the aforementioned flange topped tube are 14.66mm either side of the barrel centre line. All solder work on assembly A (underframe & barrel cradle) and assembly B (barrel/walkways & fittings) will be completed before any plastic or white metal parts are secured/bonded to any brass. This should avoid nasty fumes and/or melting of more delicate components.... 

post-7795-0-16562000-1447689686.jpg

 

Once the two 5.9mm thick barrel ends were in place a check for the 62.66mm overall length dimension could be made....this came out at .24mm overlength on the model. The barrel proved to be slightly overlength and will have 0.12mm filed off each end.

 

Dave

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Mornin all,

 

Attention switches to the more complex end of the barrel top today....important to remember that this is the Charles Roberts bromine GA and not the Grazebrook. Various close up images have to be carefully scrutinised to ensure that details being worked on are common to each....

 

....magnified sufficiently to make out the detail beneath the dome cover it can be seen that a second set of flanged plates similar to the other end of the barrel top are housed within. We have the dimensions for the dome cover and for the walkways, as well as for the overall height of the wagon....so no issues there. Note the German helmet style rim to the dome cover adj. to the hinge....this allows the dome to clear the plates when the dome cover is open. I cannot show the image of the tank being filled with bromine with the dome open but will quote details taken from it. Two flexible narrow pipes from a shore based gantry/supply apparently fill the tank through two of three valves/fittings atop the flanged plates, whilst the 3rd appears to be a vent to let air out as the bromine level rises in the tank. The round sockets surrounding the walkway have a series of portable walkway posts linked by chains slotted into them to make it safer for personnel to walk around the narrow walkway as the tank is filled ....

post-7795-0-00729300-1447752731.png

GA part scan courtesy of Trevor Mann

 

More details as work progresses.

 

Dave

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Aft'noon all,

 

Well into the intricate area of this challenging model today. The advantage of having scale works drawings for the barrel assembly and fittings means that I can take various readings with a ruler to give a good idea of relative dimensions/shape. The dome and walkway on the barrel top (see GA drawing scan above) will be among the most visible parts of this wagon once it is running. I'm using the thinnest flat sheet brass from Eileen's and cutting it with some Irwin metal snips. The diameter of the dome needs to be 9.39mm...it will be a close fit within the walkways. Step one was to solder a band of brass at the correct diameter. The depth of the band allowed for curve of the barrel being let/filed into the bottom of the dome and for the top few millimetres to be serrated with the snips, before being folded over as a support for the dome top. This was formed over one of the various forming kit domes by hammering the brass into shape with a small clockmaker's hammer.... 

 

....the dome is fragile therefore using a 9mm drill to hold shape whilst I work the outside, keeps it intact...

post-7795-0-64619600-1448295314.jpg

 

....viewed through the 8x magnifying lamp gives an idea of how delicate this is to work on. The frame for the dome is formed of brass rod which is shaped first to dimensions from the GA drawing, then hammered flat on the forming kit anvil to replicate the prototype. The second side to the frame is then matched to the first and the holes drilled for the wire/rod rungs which hold the two sides together. The excess solder will be removed at the fettling stage....

post-7795-0-13331800-1448295338.jpg

 

....the hollowness of the dome and fine frame contribute much to the character of this wagon. They are therefore worth the hassle to replicate.... 

post-7795-0-70213300-1448295385.jpg

 

Posed pictures...dome not ready to be attached to frame yet.

 

Latest order placed is for this useful small circle template for checking roundness of the various small round components...

 

post-7795-0-45528700-1448317729.png

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Circles-Symbols-Drawing-Drafting-Template/dp/B00719GAS4

 

 

Dave

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Evenin' all,

 

Whilst working on the underframe for the Grazebrook today a soldered joint on one of the modified W irons gave way, highlighting the potential for bigger problems once the remaining fittings are added to the underframe, due to not being able to apply enough heat to remake the joint without melting other components. Some serious brass plate .93mm thick (a metric reading of an imperial gauge sheet 6" x 6" square) had arrived from Eileen's during the week and I took the opportunity to solve this fundamental issue once and for all. Slicing a 4mm then a 10mm strip off of one edge provided enough brass for several W irons. Snipping 4 x 10mm lengths off the 4mm width provided a double thickness on the underside of the W iron each side of the section to be sliced out. This was then bridged by a length of the 10mm wide strip. Once the section of original W iron had been sliced out on both and all surfaces filed/fettled the two completed W irons with the new strength alterations were ready to be fitted under the Grazebrook frame....  

 

post-7795-0-83805600-1448384332.jpg

 

....the height measurements for the buffers were just right and all corners of the frame sat at the right ride height.

 

A well worthwhile alteration and yes it needs a straighten before the second W iron is soldered in.

 

Dave

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Evenin' all,

 

Certainly the biggest news this year for the layout are discussions with Barrowmore Model Railway Group for Tor Giffard to become their new club layout. An adaptation of the Mostyn fiddle yard would be used, with Tor Giffard as the scenic section. At 42ft long elements of each of the twin Mostyn fiddle yards would need to be employed but the opportunity to have either/or large layouts available to exhibition managers with only an exchange of scenic section required don't need explaining, nor do the implications in terms of fast tracking the layout onto the exhibition circuit. Early days yet but no major obstacles apparent at the moment....will update this thread with any developments.

 

A full day today spent preparing Mostyn for exhibition at Tarporley Community centre this weekend....all rail sides/wing rails/chair tops/crossing boarding etc on the scenic section checked for wear & tear/freshened with weathered enamel shades as appropriate.

 

Dave

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Morning Dave,

That sounds like a fantastic idea, and that from me that only became familiar with 'Mostyn' today thanks to your link on ERs! It's going to take some time however, if all your wagon stock is going to be as complex as the current build above!

Superb workmanship as ever,

Kind regards,

Jock.

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Mornin' Jock,

 

The element of model railways which motivates me the most is fine brass/nickel silver work esp. when scratchbuilding....e.g the bridge supports and the Grazebrook tank. However, I don't waste time scratchbuilding when there are quality alternatives available and much of the stock for TG will be modified RTR & kits. I've worked with the Barrowmore guys before and productivity levels were good. Yes, the combining of aluminium and wood baseboards/frames (expansion/contraction) will need to be allowed for. Also, the viewing height for TG/style of viewing experience is intended to be lower and this will need to be addressed too.

 

All solutions to be worked through.

 

Rgds

 

Dave

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  • 3 weeks later...

Aft'noon all,

 

Fitted and unfitted short wheelbase wooden bodied vans automatically fall within the 1951-71 period of TG. The hardest wagons to replicate, for me, are those which appear in large numbers with much similarity. Focussing on individual, inspirational and prototypical part consists of specific commodity vehicles gets me past that particular difficulty. See the image below for the inspiration for this part consist. 

 

Arriving this morning were the first seven Ratio van kits for TG from Kernow models. Bachmann versions were discounted due to poor replication of planking. Five matched those in the image below....the fifth wagon was a 9ft LMS type which was already rare at the 1960 date of the picture in general traffic & this part consist is destined for a 1966/67 dated train, it was therefore substituted by an extra 10ft wheelbase example....an extra two ex Southern van kits tagged onto the order as well.....

post-7795-0-66243200-1450529135.jpg

 

....I find plastic kit and RTR wagon underframes at best undesirable. Rumney models have already despatched etched brass versions for each of these seven Ratio van bodies....

post-7795-0-49559600-1450529917.png

 

....the momentum for this batch of vans came from this image (from a currently unknown photographer) of ex GWR & LMS vans in china clay traffic....the bauxite livery is heavily influenced by the clay powder which settles into any nook & cranny and will be a joy to weather onto the models. Obviously, loose powder is blown off in transit but the discoloration remains along with that trapped in planking gaps etc... 

post-7795-0-81021500-1450529391.png

 

Dave Franks superb buffers will complete the vans.

 

Dave

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Dave,

The Rumney models chassis/underframes look very good in comparison to the plastic ones - do you intend to do a blow by blow account of the builds, as that could be very useful?

Look forward to a time when you get them running,

Kind regards,

Jock.

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Aft'noon all,

 

Mundane modelling duties to the fore today. The seven newly arrived short wheel base van kits now have their own foam lined construction boxfile.....

post-7795-0-81174500-1450631854.jpg

....this allows all related components to be kept together, the stock width channels to the right allow part completed models to be safely stowed without sliding around the box/provide for easy storage amongst other box files and make it easy to transport all elements of a project to a clubroom etc for shared modelling time. All packaging/instruction sheets etc can now be thrown away to save space. Various buffer types/axleboxes/springing units are being gathered together to individualise the various chosen wagon identities.

 

The second mundane task today has been to separate my stock of various buffer types into individual compartments in the two wagon fittings cases

post-7795-0-42832100-1450631842.jpg

Available from Maplins as electronic component cases.

 

A modelling day with the Barrowmore boys on for tomorrow

 

One of the next conservatory tasks is to set up the compressor/airbrush and test it with thinned matt varnish whilst the oil radiator maintains temperature and humidity. This is to protect the fragile ALPS based decals which won't tolerate brushed varnish over them. I prefer to brush apply all enamels when painting/weathering but need the airbrush for this task.

 

The Barrowmore day was spent measuring/cutting & bonding the chamfered strips (Evergreen rectangular section) to the hopper body/underframe boundary on 24 ex Ironstone hoppers. A full day but rewarding.  

 

Latest arrival are the seven etched underframes from Rumney for the short wheelbase vans.

 

Trackwork on the scenic section has been on hold for some time partly due to conflicting advice and opinion about the validity of my approach. The path which I have chosen as of now is to detail my efforts on this thread alone and to include regular warnings to any readers that my work is experimental and may undergo revision/tweaking at intervals in order to succeed/provide reliable running for P4 stock. Hazards of continual debate on the subject include frustration and stagnation, whilst experimental work at least involves progression/development over time. The bottom line is that two rails correctly spaced for P4 and with minimal undulation will provide for reliable running on TG. Work on the scenic section will continue towards a possible 'tipping point' when sufficient work has been done for it to be regarded as a viable entity, this work may or may not take place in the Barrowmore clubroom. The principle debate currently being regarding the timing of an alternative scenic section to marry with the existing fiddle yard(s). Approaching 50 years old I'm under no illusion as to how much work is needed to advance Tor Giffard to an operable status and I will therefore be focussing on this as my primary objective. If a further period of advancing TG in my limited space at home is required then so be it.   

 

A short run of night shifts with a disturbed & split sleep pattern doesn't lend itself to finescale modelling so the opportunity is used to check for newly released products/images etc. The token diverted WR freight on TG will include a couple of Lowfits with 1967 period Holman compressors from Camborne. The recently released Scalecraft offerings available via Kernow models could therefore be seen as ideal. However, the 1967/68 limitations of the former LSWR through route via Okehampton to Exeter doesn't match the period of the model compressors....I can't find images of that style of compressor pre 1973/74 and a 6/7 year gap in reality just ain't my style. That said I've ordered a pair of them to assess relative dimensions when mounted on a Lowfit and to consider whether there is the option of backdating them to the apparently smaller/more rounded body style. It is also easy to assume that compressors were always secured onto Lowfits in the same way. The excellent Cornish Railway Society website includes linear photographic histories of railways within Cornwall....

  http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/st-erth-to-redruth.html

....the May 1967 image at Carn Brea of compressors loaded horizontally and encased in protective wooden framing is perfect for the timeframe of the diverted consist on TG. This picture should be compared with the 1972ish images of compressors at Drump Lane....this time with no protective framing and with the compressors in a nose (drawhook) down attitude on the wagons. Yes, it could be supposed that different customers asked for their plant to be delivered in different ways e.g. if the compressors were to be loaded onto a ship for export but I prefer to assume that progressive handling/loading techniques over time simplified the way in which they were loaded/secured onto the Lowfits and that I should recreate the Carn Brea method of loading/securing inc. wooden framing. I've also ordered a secondhand pair of books on the history of Holman, Camborne in the hope of more pictures esp. close ups of the 1967 period machines for modelling purposes.

 

Latest arrival today were the two Holman compressors from Kernow models...a useful reference point for the 1967 period version but that is about it.

 

Modelling psychology to the fore today....I'd spent considerable time last year adjusting/correcting the double track deck for the Plymouth route bridge on TG and even though I was aware that there was a flaw in the width of the deck...highlighted by a subsequently acquired image taken from the driving cab window of a train crossing the prototype....I couldn't bring myself to consider replacing the deck, due to the time already invested in it. This led to me avoiding adding more components (which I would probably have to undo anyway) to the bridge. The benefit of time lapse and doing work/developing skills on other areas of the project in the meantime was that I could revisit the same problem area in the cold light of today...before going on to quickly remove the offending deck pre second thoughts stopping me. It isn't much of a job to slice out a new deck and recover the build to the same point that I thought I'd reached already....odd how sentimentality over work done/time expended (even on a flawed component) alters the way in which some complex projects develop.

 

Dave

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  • 3 weeks later...

Evenin' all,

 

Happy New Year to all and any readers. Dismantling the Christmas tree in the conservatory brought the modelling bench(es) back into play. I'd not been happy with progress on the Plymouth route bridge construction for some time, recognising issues with the profile once the revised Templot track plan was introduced as well as deck width issues highlighted by the fortuitous arrival of an image taken from the cab of a train crossing the prototype. Biting the bullet, I removed the old deck and sliced a new one from 2mm aluminium sheet around a print of the revised Templot plan....

post-7795-0-59806100-1452364028.jpg

....finish filing and marking out of deck sections comes next.

 

Whilst correcting the deck issue I revisited the baseframes for the two bridges....these were built in the original chassis style rather than with the later aluminium sheet zig zag approach. These images show the issue with the chassis style of construction...flex or twist in the baseframe. Propping one corner should cause the opposite corner on the same side to rise by a similar amount...instead that corner stayed on the plate glass reference table...

post-7795-0-29082300-1452364044.jpg

 

post-7795-0-84769500-1452364055.jpg

 

post-7795-0-34834600-1452364069.jpg

 

....the two centre longitudinals have now been removed, a single central longitudinal replacing them and a 4inch deep strip (ensures that any Tortoise point motors are within the depth of the baseframe body) of 2mm aluminium sheet has been sliced ready to create the zig zag along the baseframe each side of the centre longitudinal. The aim is to introduce absolute rigidity into each baseframe 

 

Placing the 6mm plate glass on a bed of thick sponge allows it to sit absolutely level on the long workbench.....confirmed using the metre long stainless straight edge.

 

Dave

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Evenin' all,

 

Happy New Year to all and any readers. Dismantling the Christmas tree in the conservatory brought the modelling bench(es) back into play. I'd not been happy with progress on the Plymouth route bridge construction for some time, recognising issues with the profile once the revised Templot track plan was introduced as well as deck width issues highlighted by the fortuitous arrival of an image taken from the cab of a train crossing the prototype. Biting the bullet, I removed the old deck and sliced a new one from 2mm aluminium sheet around a print of the revised Templot plan....

attachicon.gifP10203821.JPG

....finish filing and marking out of deck sections comes next.

Very interesting Dave. What is the crossing angle of the point on the right in the first photo please? It looks very shallow.

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...semi curved C12, St E.

 

The complete TG scenic section Templot plan is available to download (almost the last post on the thread) on Templot club if you're interested....just type Tor Giffard into the search facility.

 

This is the link   http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=2455&forum_id=6

 

Dave

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...semi curved C12, St E.

 

The complete TG scenic section Templot plan is available to download on Templot club if you're interested....just type Tor Giffard into the search facility.

 

Dave

Thanks Dave. I hope it doesn't turn out end up too shallow for good running.

 

Edited to remove horrible and unintentional pun.

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Thanks Dave. I hope it doesn't turn out end up too shallow for good running.

 

Edited to remove horrible and unintentional pun.

 

Hi,

 

There is no reason why a shallow crossing angle should give poor running, provided:

 

1. the check rails are correctly positioned, and

 

2. the wheels are not too narrow for the track standard.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

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Dave, Martin's comments about check rails (and wing rails?) and wheels are well made. The prototype can go as flat as 1:35 before switched crossings become mandatory, but in my experience anything as flat as 1:12 is quite unusual in model form (probably because most folk don't have room for it!). Sorry if I set any hares running - I'm sure all will be well.

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