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Camden Shed


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Great to see the plan laid out on the floor, Iain. Now I can fully understand where it will sit and how everything is accessible. For some reason in my head, I had the shed on the inside and the running lines outside as per the original layout.

 

Glad to see you in your new home and that it really has exceeded your expectations. Still amazed how much space a railway takes up and that even with 40' some small compression is required. It's certainly going to be a beautiful layout, so I'll look forward to seeing it develop over the next few years.  You have 20 years start on me, so bags of time....:-)

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hi Iain,

Wow, I have photos just like those (haha) unfortunately not in a space I own.

However, I’m so happy for you, what a great space, to recreate a great piece of railway history. The layout scaling will sort itself out, through the simple process of “what is negotiable, and what is not”

As always, and my very best Christmas and New Years wishes to you both, now get that Christmas tree decorated, and toast your beautiful new home.

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Hello again Iain

 

Forgive me if you have mentioned this before, but how are you planning to operate the layout? Will it be 'moving locos around ad hoc', or will you be closer to a working timetable, where everything is set up to go on or off shed at an appropriate time? And working out how many wagon loads of coal are needed and when etc?

 

A note for your possible safety...

 

Would it be an idea to consider some form of gate at the top of the stairs? It is very easy to 'step back' and end up where you don't want to be - particularly if there are guests visiting. (I only mention this as I have a disabled wife and have to ensure that she can't fall - so, the subject is high in my mind. My apologies if the idea is not so appropriate for your circumstances.)

 

All the best

 

Brian

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Bit of an early Christmas present for us Iain? Can't wait to see your new model progress. Hope all is well.

 

Thanks - will try to get something done then!!

All well here thank you. Excited to spend our first Christmas in the new place

Hope all is well with you too.

 

Great to see the plan laid out on the floor, Iain. Now I can fully understand where it will sit and how everything is accessible. For some reason in my head, I had the shed on the inside and the running lines outside as per the original layout.

 

Glad to see you in your new home and that it really has exceeded your expectations. Still amazed how much space a railway takes up and that even with 40' some small compression is required. It's certainly going to be a beautiful layout, so I'll look forward to seeing it develop over the next few years. You have 20 years start on me, so bags of time....:-)

 

Great to see you the other day, Gordon. Looking younger every time I see you! Your wise advice is very helpful as always. Look forward to a game sometime soon.

 

hi Iain,

Wow, I have photos just like those (haha) unfortunately not in a space I own.

However, I’m so happy for you, what a great space, to recreate a great piece of railway history. The layout scaling will sort itself out, through the simple process of “what is negotiable, and what is not”

As always, and my very best Christmas and New Years wishes to you both, now get that Christmas tree decorated, and toast your beautiful new home.

 

Thanks Stanley! Very kind indeed.

 

 

Hello again Iain

 

Forgive me if you have mentioned this before, but how are you planning to operate the layout? Will it be 'moving locos around ad hoc', or will you be closer to a working timetable, where everything is set up to go on or off shed at an appropriate time? And working out how many wagon loads of coal are needed and when etc?

 

A note for your possible safety...

 

Would it be an idea to consider some form of gate at the top of the stairs? It is very easy to 'step back' and end up where you don't want to be - particularly if there are guests visiting. (I only mention this as I have a disabled wife and have to ensure that she can't fall - so, the subject is high in my mind. My apologies if the idea is not so appropriate for your circumstances.)

 

All the best

 

Brian

Hi Brian,

 

A fair shout, once we have baseboards built. It was in my mind but good to have it brought to the fore again. Operation will be from the centre, but some viewing will be from the area at the top of the stairs.

As regards a timetable, I’d like to have something roughly realistic, but I’ve not got that far yet. The shed area should be able to be operated prototypically.

 

Best wishes to you all,

 

Iain

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Would you not be able to keep the plan if you had the fiddle yard on the other side so the curve of the main line runs into the curve to the fiddle yard rather than against it?

Richard

It’s possible it might buy enough space, and I could reinvestigate, but I put it this way round for 2 reasons, Richard.

One is to give wider radius hidden curves to the FY.

The other was to give enough room for the loco return from the up fiddle yard to get up and over all 4 main lines.

 

Thanks for the thought. I’ll pursue.

 

Iain

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I can not judge as i am not in the space, could the locos not return from the up fiddle yard via a ladder of points across the 4 main lines to remove the need to climb? I understand radius of corners is a concern, but once off scene then they can be sharper, if there are other corners sharper elsewhere then locos would be designed with that in mind an so greater curvature whilst desirable is not compulsary. I have always been encouraged to make locos go around 2'6" and ten plan any layout with 3' curves.  

Naturally your space will to some extent dictate your compromises. We all have them. Mine is that i have to run a BLT at the moment insead of the through station which i want to build.

I wish you luck in choosing your compromise. I have been following the project and think it is a great one to do.

Richard

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Season's greeting, Iain - good to see your progress, and the stirrings of a productive 2019.

 

Unsure of your exact dimensions, especially because you have the Templots on the floor, but I would counsel you to double check your accessibility to parts that need to be accessible when you are up and running.  I'm finding that even though I don't need to reach them to operate, the far corners of Stockrington are literally quite a stretch to scenic, and the laws of physics are immutable.

 

I found for a once or twice off, reaching "in" 1200mm is possible, if not practical. But I'd not want to try and recover a derailed loco at that distance. And once something like a coaling tower gets in the way, you will only reach some parts from one side only...

 

Can't wait to see your work as the layout comes together in 2019.

 

Regards

 

Scott

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Season's greeting, Iain - good to see your progress, and the stirrings of a productive 2019.

 

Unsure of your exact dimensions, especially because you have the Templots on the floor, but I would counsel you to double check your accessibility to parts that need to be accessible when you are up and running.  I'm finding that even though I don't need to reach them to operate, the far corners of Stockrington are literally quite a stretch to scenic, and the laws of physics are immutable.

 

I found for a once or twice off, reaching "in" 1200mm is possible, if not practical. But I'd not want to try and recover a derailed loco at that distance. And once something like a coaling tower gets in the way, you will only reach some parts from one side only...

 

Can't wait to see your work as the layout comes together in 2019.

 

Regards

 

Scott

Hi Scott,

 

Thanks - that’s a big reason for laying it all out as I have. The only way to envisage clearly where the difficulties will lie. Most of the scenic section will be accessible from both sides.

 

Hope all well with you.

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain

 

 

I can not judge as i am not in the space, could the locos not return from the up fiddle yard via a ladder of points across the 4 main lines to remove the need to climb? I understand radius of corners is a concern, but once off scene then they can be sharper, if there are other corners sharper elsewhere then locos would be designed with that in mind an so greater curvature whilst desirable is not compulsary. I have always been encouraged to make locos go around 2'6" and ten plan any layout with 3' curves.  

Naturally your space will to some extent dictate your compromises. We all have them. Mine is that i have to run a BLT at the moment insead of the through station which i want to build.

I wish you luck in choosing your compromise. I have been following the project and think it is a great one to do.

Richard

Many thanks, Richard. Very kind.

I could go to 3’ curves without any bother. Having much wider radii wasn’t critical to the design, just desirable.

I was keen not to have a ladder of crossovers partly for simplicity and better running, and partly so that locos could return to shed completely independently of mainline operations. But again, I can reinvestigate.

Best wishes,

Iain

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Buffer Stops (again) way back in 2014, (http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/52339-camden-shed/?p=1418152) we where looking at the two loco roads behind the ash plant, and what type of stops were they. Well the fantastic photo that Jeremy posted back on the 02/05/2018 stirred it up again. PECO (bless their little wagon wheels) brought out (to compliment their bullhead range) SL-1140 Buffer Stop Rail Type, they looked the part, so Hattons delivered 5packs (10 stops) earlier this week, very nice. They are great, excellent detail, and will do OO or EM, I tested one onto my code83 Tillig (don’t go there) track - perfect fit, although sleeper spacing is important, and good lighting while fitting is recommended.

Result a perfect scale solution to most of the stops required on this side of the main running lines.

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It is a large project just ask Vincent....

Your realisation is well founded, and yes it is a small site in real terms, but massive in 4mm scale, but it offers so much as you well know.

After I did the cop out line “it will sort itself out” the other day, I think I owe you more, so....

 

As you have it laid on the floor as posted is the best arrangement, because (a) it maximises the off set curve radius possibilities , while (b) maintaining the all important on set overall long prototypical main line curve into and out of the off set reverse curves.

 

Notwithstanding the workshop area, the fiddle yard and the reverse curves could go hard up to the walls, access to each of the curves would be through the inner curve radius area.

 

Fiddle yard proper, not including yard end point work if possible, and similar to your mk1 photos back in 2012, and noting that a standard express was about 4m (13’) long, and your mk2 has about a 6m (20’) scenic (on set) length, which could allow the fiddle yard straight line area to push out to carry long and short distance expresses, plus local service stock, and through lines, in a tight but do able 600mm (2’) width.

 

The goods yard scenic backscene could push right back to the fiddle yard (no access gap, except at each end)

Access to fiddle yard, while increase stock capacity has been done elsewhere, by making the fiddle yard a multi-level cassette system, constructed as a stand alone module, with the through lines (fixed) passing behind and in front of the cassette module, the fixed lines behind (against the wall) bring the module forward, which will allow the lower cassette to raise up to track height without the top cassette touching the raked ceiling overhead. It could be designed as a three level unit, aluminium square tube framed, electrically driven through full (fiddle yard) length geared drive shafts.

The scenic break hides the cassette. Yes you still need to get on your hands and knees to access the fiddle yard, but this would be only to sort a rail fault, or derailed train, could also be reduced by employing full length aluminium angled strips in place of standard track, which continuously “rerail” the train.

Stock change over could be managed either by adjoining lower level run rounds, or at the reverse curve at the workshop end.

 

Yes it’s got arms and legs, but it is do able, but complex solution, you could even make the cassette lowerable, and on wheels, drawing it out to the viewing area to carry out set ups and work on the module.

 

Possibly crazy complex, possibly not.

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Interesting idea, Stanley!

I’ll give it some thought.

Iain

Not too much I hope, it really depends on how you want to operate the layout, prototypically or something that represents it.

In either case, I’m not sure the cassette will deliver either, even my 1936 express and suburban timetables are proving a challenge, the DC sets alone are a stand alone system, and I’m doing an end to end arrangement for simplicity.

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I’d originally made a rough plan for a FY to this design, using Peco large radius turnouts throughout:

 

post-10140-0-48584900-1545503688_thumb.jpeg

 

Red is for locos to reverse off shed to head down trains out of “Euston”

Green is for locos to reverse back onto shed after bringing up trains into “Euston”.

Black was for spurs to loco lifts or mini-cassettes

Yellow was a mini fiddle yard for goods stock into and out of the goods yard

 

I would probably have left off most or all of the kickback sidings in the early stages.

 

There is a lot of space here in 2’9” width and realistically, I would have had problems filling it. I”m going to build more locos than carriages, and perhaps two or three 501 sets would be the limit.

 

I think the system suggested by Stanley is interesting but realistically, beyond me at this stage. And I’m not sure the complexity helps me any more than the plan above.

 

Thoughts welcome as always. Can’t promise to be capable of acting on them though!

 

Iain

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Iain

 

you will be amazed how quickly you can collect passenger stock, goods train etc. so fiddle yards tend to get used more than you ever think they will,

 

you could leave some of the fiddle yard tracks off until you need them all.

 

Baz

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I’m sure you’re right, Baz! Although not much goods stock in the fiddle yard here. A few 16T minerals and some other ash and coal wagons to service the MPD, and that’s it,

 

I’ve trimmed, altered and refined the plan given the existing buildings and the way it aligns in the room. I turned the whole thing 180 degrees to see what it looked like:

 

post-10140-0-29147200-1545590542_thumb.jpeg

 

post-10140-0-48800000-1545590554_thumb.jpeg

 

It doesn’t buy me enough space to get around to where the lifting section will be.

 

So, let’s turn it back round again and see how far into the room it could go.

 

post-10140-0-56226000-1545595504_thumb.jpeg

 

Tight, still, for getting around the end of the layout. This leaves just over 3’ minimum radius which is better than I could get from the arrangement above.

 

I also marked out all the switch blades in red and both alternative locations for the tortoises for each turnout. This will give me a chance to plan out where all the board joins should go, even if I compress and redesign it, because the basic arrangement will be the same.

 

post-10140-0-92476100-1545596374_thumb.jpeg

 

Overall, I think a redesign is probably necessary, to reduce the overall length by perhaps 2-3 feet.

 

Iain

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Wow, just found this, absolutely mind-blowing, and wow, I kill for 40 feet of space, I m watch this with great interest. Some great modelling here.

 

Keep up the fantastic work

 

Regards Jeff.

 

Merry Xmas to all

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Hello Iain

 

I know you haven't decided yet on how you are going to operate the MPD, but can I pass on something that I have learnt from my own shed (which is of a similar size and layout to Camden)?

 

The 'real' MPD had lots of staff to move things around and keep it 'fluid' (most of the time, anyway!). You - and I - work alone, so it is helpful to have some form of 'system'.

 

Mine is:

 

1. Something comes off shed (eg a loco for Euston, some ash wagons or a stores vehicle etc. In other words, you now have 'a bit of breathing space.)

 

2. On-shed movements are made (eg a loco moves from ash to shed; another moves from coal road to ash; some coal wagons are positioned for the coaler etc).

 

3. Something comes on shed (eg a light engine from Euston to the turntable).

 

This helps keeps things moving very nicely.

 

Re-reading the article about the shed in the Railway Gazette (30 April 1937), I noticed that the coal wagons were worked forward by capstan - you can just see this in a photo in HG Forsythe's book, Steam Shed Portrait. I suppose you could pretend that it was out of action and use a Jinty (if you are going to work out the amount of coal you need for a typical day).

 

Brian

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Hi Iain,

Still thinking about arranging this into the space available ?

Well after my last effort (not good) please consider - "how would a fiddle yard under the scenic section" work;

IMG_0130.jpg.78e6ad3cad71c9b01fcc507ef532354c.jpg

 

sorry about the picture quality. The problem has been bugging me since December, and I know I said (among others) no gradients, but this would be <0.5%.

I've not considered compacting it or curve radius and I've only looked at the down fast line, with the arrows showing red to green - down under scenic area. The fiddle yard would be "at the front", directly under the shed.

Just a thought.

 

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Hi Stanley,

 

thats an interesting idea.  If it could work, it would mean I could bring the scenic section more into the middle of the room.

I’d have to work out the gradient question, including having the storage sidings low enough beneath the layout to have space to couple and uncouple locos, plus clean and sort problems.  

I think I know what Gordon would tell me!

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain

 

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On 31/03/2019 at 02:01, 1BCamden said:

Hi Iain,

Still thinking about arranging this into the space available ?

Well after my last effort (not good) please consider - "how would a fiddle yard under the scenic section" work;

IMG_0130.jpg.78e6ad3cad71c9b01fcc507ef532354c.jpg

 

sorry about the picture quality. The problem has been bugging me since December, and I know I said (among others) no gradients, but this would be <0.5%.

I've not considered compacting it or curve radius and I've only looked at the down fast line, with the arrows showing red to green - down under scenic area. The fiddle yard would be "at the front", directly under the shed.

Just a thought.

 

 

Looking at that drawing, it seems to me that there could be much to gain by moving the scenic section more into one of the corners and make better use of the curve. That should make it possible to have more conventional (and accessible) storage roads.

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10 hours ago, 92220 said:

Hi Stanley,

 

thats an interesting idea.  If it could work, it would mean I could bring the scenic section more into the middle of the room.

I’d have to work out the gradient question, including having the storage sidings low enough beneath the layout to have space to couple and uncouple locos, plus clean and sort problems.  

I think I know what Gordon would tell me!

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain

 

 

You know me too well!......:)

 

Think about how much space you need to clamber in to solder a tie bar or a wire. Believe me, trying to do any of the other drawbacks would be a piece of cake compared to soldering in a confined place.

 

I can’t recall what the running length is available to you for Stanley to arrive at his 1:200 gradient and what clearance that would provide between the two boards. With the support structure and clearance for Tortoise motors etc plus your access depth, you will need a minimum of 400mm between the two levels.

 

That will require a run of at least 40m, even with a 1:100 gradient.

 

Think long and hard about that one......

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