Camden Shed

[92220]

I have a quick question about ballast shoulders in the 58-62 era that I am modelling.   When I did the templot plan I did not activate the trackbed function so it is not on the printout and I just can’t remember the basic dimensions.

 

This post:

 

from:

seems fairly definitive - would I be sensible to follow these dimensions?  I was going to chamfer the closed cell foam to the right profile.

 

I know more modern ballasting guidance has ballast ridges heaped behind the sleeper ends but this era would have a profile much more like the picture above.

 

Iain

[BMacdermott]

Hello Iain

 

If that can't be answered here, you might get some joy from the 'Skills & Knowledge' Forum.

 

Brian

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/35-permanent-way-signalling-infrastructure/

[92220]

Thank you Brian.  I’ve studied some more of the photos of the site in my period and I think those dimensions seem spot on.  I know that @Martin Wynne looks in here from time to time (and I appreciate every bit of help that he has given me in particular, and us all in general) so he may like to add something.   It is really only the bit circled in red below that I need: the rest of the entire baseboard area at its lowest (apart from the dive under, pits and turntable well of course) is packed ash cinders.

 

 

Which neatly or not so neatly brings me to another question.   
 

I am planning the representation of the goods yard and its approaches.  From what I can see the track is laid pretty much as normal in yard-type ash cinder ballast, level with the sleeper tops.  Nearer the shed there are wagon turntables.   I am wondering whether the whole yard area including the lines of wagon turntables was in the same lowish quality ballast - I guess a mix of ash, cinders and a few stones - or whether there was some transition to inlaid track.  Do wagon turntables need more anchoring than just in ballast?   It is viewable on this link:

 

maps.nls.uk/view/102902575

 

from which I have taken a tiny crop which I hope does not infringe any copyright. I will of course remove if so.

 

 

The red lines are the up lines already laid. Blue is the corner of the goods shed, and in green is some portion of the approaches I would like to model.  I won’t be too assiduous as much out of necessity has to be ornamental  - the scissors will bite the dust for a start.  Probably just the 3 wagon turntables adjacent to the shed, and not the earlier group.  Presumably Cn means capstan?
 

If I am honest, I’d probably prefer to model the whole lot in low grade ballast, but if I have to represent inlaid track, how, into what and where would the transition be?

 

thanks in advance for any thought.  
 

Iain

 

[lezz01]

Are you going to build that scissors with the tandem on the lower left leg Iain?

Regards Lez.

[92220]

8 hours ago, lezz01 said:

Are you going to build that scissors with the tandem on the lower left leg Iain?

Regards Lez.

Hi Lez,

I very much doubt it.  The whole area is just a 3D backdrop to the main scene with a small amount of movement possible.  
Of course, the alternative view is that if it’s there I should model it and the fact that it can never be used means that the standards for construction are lower and it would be a good practice piece for the scissors off the down fast which absolutely has to be perfect!

Iain

[lezz01]

Well it would certainly be a good practice piece Iain. A scissors isn't the easiest thing to build in the first place but the tandem on one leg adds another level of difficulty. Tandems on their own are problematical as clearances are tight even in EM & P4 God alone knows what it's going to be like in 00 but I agree that it would be good to have a trial run and as you say the other one has to be dead right for faultless running.

Regards Lez. 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Iain

 

You have probably seen this - and it is too early for your model - but it may help overall understanding of the area.

 

Brian

 

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello again

 

Just found the site below - the aerial photo (1948) is worth a look.

 

Brian

 

http://www.crht1837.org/history/camdengoodsdepot

[92220]

Many thanks Brian, yes, I had seen but had forgotten both the aerial photo and the final 2 seconds of the YouTube clip which shows the use of one turntable and the entrance to the goods shed well.

 

The aerial photo seems to show no change in the ballasting arrangements until at least quite close to the shed entrance, perhaps 2 wagon lengths short of the building.  I am guessing it would go to track inlaid into hard standing of some sort.  Given the age of the goods shed, possibly concrete?  I don’t know really.  
 

EDIT - no, from 0:37 in the clip it looks more like hard standing for the row of turntables a long way short of the shed.  Now I am clueless.

 

My memory isn’t perfectly clear but I think Leicester South has a big goods yard and shed with working wagon turntables and capstans?  Or am I mistaken?  Wondering whether @Headstockmight be able to help here.

 

Lez - I think I will probably leave both the scissors and therefore the tandem out if I am honest.  But who knows.  I’ve done stranger things.  
 

Iain

Edited April 28, 2021 by 92220
To add something

[Dragonboy]

18 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Iain

 

You have probably seen this - and it is too early for your model - but it may help overall understanding of the area.

 

Brian

 

 

Gosh those wagon turntables don’t hang around

[92220]

If this video is genuinely showing the first long row of turntables a couple of hundred feet short of the goods shed at Camden, then it’s clearly track inlaid into some sort of hard standing for at least all that distance to the shed.

 

https://www.huntleyarchives.com/preview.asp?image=1097486&itemw=4&itemf=0002&itemstep=1&itemx=11

 

Yet at this end (photo from John Turner’s Flickr as previously acknowledged) it is clearly low grade ballasted - ash/cinders and a few stones probably.

 

 

So any thoughts about (a) what sort of inlay and how to represent it, and (b) the transition would be hugely appreciated.

 

thanks in advance.

 

Iain

[92220]

I’ve made a few bits of progress - an inlaid crossover for next to the goods shed, and more detailing of that shed’s new roof.   I’ve also started making the track for the approaches to the goods shed.   You might think I am mad, handbuilding point work that will not be used, but there is method to this madness: 

 

1.  There is the possibility of a limited shunting scenario backdrop to the mainlines

2.  The track approaching the goods shed will be seen in the background to almost every photo and video taken

3.  I had/have a load of thin sleepered track and thin timbering to use up and it’s all good practice for the rest of it.

 

You can see a few bits in these clips.  Making a more prominent appearance this time are 46245, 46248 and almost completed 44875.

 

 

Iain

[mark axlecounter]

I’m very jealous Iain, but you and a few more on here are bringing back my mojo on the modelling front. 
keep up the good work 

 

mark T

[92220]

Seems like a recurring theme on this thread is me asking a question to which the answer is found in a book I already have - I just hadn’t found it (or bothered to look for it?).  So, many apologies for my laziness.

 

I have found a couple of photos in “Camden Goods Station” (I mean, why wouldn’t I look in there first?) showing in 1934 the first row of wagon turntables clearly all in inlaid track with what look like setts of some description throughout.  
 

 

I can’t imagine there would be any change from then until the goods station was closed and demolished. So there will be some kind of transition from sleepered/timbered track to inlaid before that.   
 

Iain

[LNER4479]

Morning Iain,

 

I've always found the attached picture fascinating re wagon turntables.

 

My hunch would be that, although a different location, much of what you see here is typical for a steam age goods yard . I'm sure that it would be inset so that it's basically all at rail top level. You don't want your staff (and horses?) stripping over sleepers and rails whilst they're trying to use such equipment.

 

[92220]

Yes exactly - that’s not far off the kind of detail I’ve got from these photos here.

 

I want it to be a realistic and plausible background to the main event so I don’t have to get every detail correct, but something close to what it might have been.

 

Iain

[1BCamden]

Hi Iain,

Yes, Peters' book show a number of great examples of the surface hard stand both in front of, and behind the Goods Station. Peter and I corresponded during its development, it was a pleasure to be a part of the research team involved.

The transition from hardstand cobbles and inlaid (on edge rectangular bricks) pavers is shown to good effect on page 51, plus page 64 for a colour shot.

Being that the rails formed the apron to the hard stand, or as per the jpeg below it was formed along the signal cable trunking, you would recognise these photo locations.

[dggar]

I am not a modeler but have been following this thread with great interest.

Up to the age of 12 (in 1962) I lived in Harrow and each summer we stayed in Rhyl at my grandmother’s house.

We travelled on a train named “The Welshman” which left Euston about 11.15 am.

I was always fascinated by the way the tracks ducked and dived around the top of Camden bank.

At the age of 12 I did a couple of shed bashes to Camden.

 

About 10 yrs ago I came across a 10 minute video on youtube which consisted of out takes from the film “Train of Events” and the images in 1BCamden’s post look like stills taken from this video. Unfortunately this video is no longer available on youtube. But I did save it to my computer.

Here are 4 screen shots

I hope these don't infringe any copyright. First two show a Coronation class  with the banker dropping off and the next two show what I think is a Jubilee on the down fast followed by an old L&Y 0-6-0 on the down slow presumably with ECS to Willesden.

[92220]

Stanley and dggar,

many thanks indeed.  I used Train of Events to get some info on the NE side of the engine shed - the never photographed wall.  But these shots are much clearer than the ones I could get.

Very grateful for these.  The detail of the transition is very helpful.  It’s almost implausible-looking, that the signal cabling actually divides the ballast on the up fast from the hard standing.  I guess is that because the cables were laid (many years later) on the transition?

 

Stanley,

 

I was most drawn to the photos on p79 of the book that show the whole first row of wagon tts and capstans, well short of the shed entrance.  The ones you are referring to on p51 and p64 I hadn’t connected with that part of the site, so the detail is very welcome.

Great to hear from you.  Hope all is well.

Best wishes,

 

Iain

[dggar]

Here is another picture from the out takes video showing the Euston end of the NE wall.

 

I have these two books which you may have come across.

The first image from the Midland Main Lines book shows the flat roof being installed in 1934.

The caption text 42 & 43 refer to the next images which show some detail of

The NE wall at the turntable end.

 

The final image from the Euston book is from 1964, with the roof having been removed  and showing the internal aspect of the NE wall

[dggar]

Here are the final two pictures:-

 

 

[mark axlecounter]

Iain you need one of these in your fleet 

 

Mikes etches are super and nice to build 

[Michael Edge]

Very nice Mark but...... the chimney should be in line with the steampipes. 

[92220]

dggar - Many thanks indeed for those.  Very helpful indeed.  I had seen one of them but not all. Each new photo reveals some new detail. Construction of the main engine shed building will be a huge undertaking.  
 

Mark - very nice indeed and I think Mike may well be right. My first Edge loco will likely be a Princess though.

 

Iain

[farren]

A red one hopefully,

photo taken June 1962. Front cover Back Track Oct 95

Edited May 13, 2021 by farren