dggar Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 (edited) Iain If you do plan to model 46200 here are a couple of pictures from the Euston book which may be of interest. Edited May 19, 2021 by dggar 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted May 14, 2021 Share Posted May 14, 2021 11 hours ago, farren said: A red one hopefully, photo taken June 1962. Front cover Back Track Oct 95 And almost certainly on the occasion of her having worked the final leg of the wonderfully ambitious RCTS/SLS 'Aberdeen Flyer' railtour https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/ 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark axlecounter Posted May 15, 2021 Share Posted May 15, 2021 On 13/05/2021 at 17:43, Michael Edge said: Very nice Mark but...... the chimney should be in line with the steampipes. Yea I know, I did sort it out but after that photo was taken silly me 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 21, 2021 Share Posted May 21, 2021 (edited) Iain, I was re reading this thread and noticed that you said you were unsure about ECS workings((14-9-2019). I hope this may help. The Euston book that I have has this to say about ECS workings:- “The Down Carriage Shed stabled main line express stock. The early morning group of trains to the north (except Scotland) and the Up evening group of such trains were dealt with here instead of at Willesden, one of the reasons being to avoid line occupation between Euston and Willesden during the morning and evening group of main line and residential trains…” It had eleven roads most of which could hold rakes of more than 12 coaches. To the immediate East of the Down Carriage Shed there were the 4 Backing Out Roads. Connection to and from all platforms was possible. ECS movements from Willesden to Euston were via the Up Slow as far as Camden No 2 signal box. At this point it diverged on to what was called the Up Empty Carriage Line This burrowed beneath the main lines opposite Camden MPD and emerged on the West side of the tracks to merge with the Up Engine Line just before the short tunnel (carrying the road Parkway) half way down Camden Bank. The Up Empty Carriage Line was known as the “Rat ’ole” The Up Engine Line diverged to become Up Engine Line 1 and Up Engine Line 2. Up Engine Line 1 linked to the Backing Out Roads and ran next to them. ECS from Willesden would wait on the Backing Out Roads before moving into one of the departure platforms. ECS from the Down Carriage Shed would also wait here. Engines coming off shed used the Up Engine Line to go via Line 1 to back on to trains for the main line departure Platforms (12 to 15) or via Line 2 for lower number platforms. ECS from the arrivals platforms (1,2 ,3 mainly but sometimes 6) would leave via the Down Carriage Line. This line and Up Engine Line 2 burrowed under the main lines to reach the East side of the station. ECS could go to either the Down Carriage Shed, or to Willesden, via the Down Carriage Line, crossing to the Down Slow just before Camden shed. (ECS could sometimes use the Down Slow from the bottom of the bank.) Engines would usually travel to Camden MPD along the Down Carriage Line. It was possible for ECS from Willesden to travel along the Up Slow and cross the two Down main lines to the Backing Out Roads, but this would only happen if there were problems on the Up Empty Carriage Line. The Up Carriage Shed could store D C electrics as well as suburban trains. Here is a schematic diagram of the lines between Primrose Hill tunnels and Euston. The Up ECS route is shown in Red and the Down route in Blue. Edited February 26, 2023 by dggar 6 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted May 21, 2021 Author Share Posted May 21, 2021 Thank you very much. That’s very useful. I had worked some of that out since that post, but far from all of it. It sounds as if that book is a good source of information. Iain 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted May 22, 2021 Author Share Posted May 22, 2021 (edited) Looking at this in closer detail, I’m happy that what I thought I had worked out seems to accord with the book. Basically I can run ecs on the down carriage line (which doubles as the down engine line in some sources, backed up by this). These movements were, as far as I can work out, not banked by the arrival train engine. They will use the scissors onto the down fast by the shed and then cross immediately to the down slow. Some ecs, especially that which was banked out of Euston by the train engine in reverse up the bank, used the down slow all the way. The train engine dropped off at the top of the bank or just before and crossed to the shed via the various crossovers and the scissors that I am patiently waiting to build when Mr C&L delivers. I’m not certain whether ecs locos turned at Willesden before returning with up ecs, then turned again on the short table at Euston. But it doesn’t really matter because the up ecs moves will be a few inches below my baseboards and in someone’s imagination. Thank you again for your contributions. Very much appreciated. Now, a bit of progress. It would be easy to wonder why I am doing what I am doing when the priority is to complete the down lines, but as I mentioned, it is because I am waiting for a delivery from C&L. So, in the meantime, I have started on the backscenes, the goods shed building and the track for the goods shed. The backscene boards are 6mm ply and are removable. But they are too tall and I noticed this immediately I built them. So they will be cut down before sanding and painting. The goods shed is coming along. All the roof detail is now completed but it being mainly in white plastic it doesn’t photo well at all. I just need to sort the details at the front: there is a distinctive building by the entrance to the first road of the shed: I am halfway through this. I am guessing it is some sort of control office but I am clueless really. As long as it looks something like this, it doesn’t matter what is inside. The other crucial piece of detailing are the two wall-mounted derricks seen in these tight crops from photos I have bought or been given. However I don’t own the copyright so if I should remove them I will: I am currently struggling to find more details of these derricks. It looks as if they are mounted and articulated at their base on the wall of the shed. When not in use they sit against the wall as here (and I am not modelling them as working!). There are cables and pulleys in some arrangement at the top, but it is hard to discern the top mounting for these. They look as if they are for very light loads only: the top mountings for the cables and the base mounting seem insufficient for any more. Again, they don’t need to be perfect but plausible representations in the background. Any guidance would be much appreciated. thanks in advance, Iain Edited May 22, 2021 by 92220 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted May 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2021 Hello Iain It is amazing how the 'backscene boards' overpower the layout in that shot. On my own layout, the backscenes are only about 4" high as I need to be able to see trains in 'the hidden sections'. When I am actually running trains in the 'visible parts', the brain switches off to what's beyond. Comes under the heading: Willing suspension of disbelief. Brian 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BMacdermott Posted May 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2021 Hello again Iain Just had a memory of Camden pop up in my mind. I'll mention it here although it won't actually help your model! My two pals and I had 'bunked the shed' one day and had somehow got talking to what I recall as being 'an old boy' - although, at our early teenage years then, anyone over 25 might have been considered old! We somehow ended up in his flat very near the shed - just talking about railways and having a cup of tea. All these years later, I still wonder if I 'narrowly escaped something sinister' - or just had a chat with 'an old boy' who liked talking about trains. I like to think we were 'street-wise kids' and would have spotted anything 'dodgy' - but the thought still goes through my head from time-to-time! Brian 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted May 22, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2021 (edited) On 27/04/2021 at 22:48, 92220 said: Thank you Brian. I’ve studied some more of the photos of the site in my period and I think those dimensions seem spot on. I know that @Martin Wynne looks in here from time to time (and I appreciate every bit of help that he has given me in particular, and us all in general) so he may like to add something. It is really only the bit circled in red below that I need: the rest of the entire baseboard area at its lowest (apart from the dive under, pits and turntable well of course) is packed ash cinders. Hi Iain, Only just seen this. I think the bit circled in red is shown rather smaller than is typical, the top edge of the ballast shoulder is rarely that well defined, or able to lie at 45 degrees. Here's a few pics of ballast shoulders: The default settings in Templot are for 7ft-6in from the track centre to the edge of the ballast (3ft-3in from the end of the sleeper), but only 2ft-3in for the width of the cess. How long is a piece of string? That gives a total width over the cess of 19ft-6in for single track, compared with the 18ft-10in in your diagram. That's 4" difference each side, or about 3 ballast stones. cheers, Martin. Edited May 22, 2021 by martin_wynne pics added 1 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 (edited) While this is outside of the scenic part of your project I thought some pictures along Camden bank might be useful to show the ECS paths:- Towards the end of 1952 a new power signal box came into use. This replaced Euston boxes 1,2 &3. Euston box 4 was renamed carriage siding box. The first two shots show the new box. immediately in front of the box there is an electrified line leading to the Up carriage shed. The pilot engines are on the end of Engine line 2 next to the Down empty carriage line. Next to the Down Fast line is Engine Line 1,occupied by a rake of carriages. on Backing Out road 2 there is what looks to me like a Black 5. the second shot shows the Black 5 with the rake on Engine line 1, probably about to set off for the departure platforms. The third shot is from about 1907 and shows the divergence of The Up engine line into Engine Line 1 and Engine Line 2. Line 2 is next to the Down Empty carriage line. The fourth shot is looking in the opposite direction and shows the box formally known as Euston No 4, Edited May 22, 2021 by dggar 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 Here are a couple of shots of where the Up empty carriage line joins the Up engine line followed by a wonderful shot of an ECS movement on the down carriage line. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 (edited) And finally a couple of shots at the top of the bank. 46205 about to set off down to Euston and the LMS diesels on "The Royal Scot" (LNER4479 has pointed out that 46205 is returning from Euston not setting back down to Euston, sorry about the error) Edited May 22, 2021 by dggar Incorrect caption 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 11 minutes ago, dggar said: 46205 about to set off down to Euston You sure about that? It looks for all the world to me as if she's banked her own train back up the bank (loco in reverse gear) and therefore about to go on shed. Unless I've got myself 180deg turned round facing the wrong way in which case my apologies! Nice set of pix, some of which I've seen before. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 22, 2021 Share Posted May 22, 2021 1 hour ago, LNER4479 said: You sure about that? It looks for all the world to me as if she's banked her own train back up the bank (loco in reverse gear) and therefore about to go on shed. Unless I've got myself 180deg turned round facing the wrong way in which case my apologies! Nice set of pix, some of which I've seen before. Yes you are completely correct. I hadn't noticed Camden No1 box by the foot bridge and assumed the loco was north of the footbridge. My apologies. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 26, 2021 Share Posted May 26, 2021 To make up for my appalling gaff here is a shot of 46234 in almost the same place waiting to cross over into the shed, the ECS for it's train is just pulling away. I've also found a link for shots of the interior of the Rat 'ole. https://www.bcd-urbex.com/camden-rat-hole-london-underground-tunnel/ 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted May 26, 2021 Author Share Posted May 26, 2021 Not an appalling gaffe at all - I’ve made dozens worse than that. Thanks for that one, which I have seen somewhere before but will never tire of it. The rat hole is interesting. Thanks. I have done a bit more on the goods shed, yard and approaches, while waiting for supplies to complete the mainlines, which hopefully explains the bizarre construction sequence. Loosely placed to represent the approaches: Inlaid track for close to the shed. I’ve done this in copper clad with some leftover scraps as it will all be covered over, and ornamental. It works though. I have jibbed out on the scissors with tandem right outside the shed. Life’s too short. Need to get some turntables from PH Designs or similar. Another view of a derrick: showing a bit more wall detailing as well. Still slightly unsure how to build these, although I could bodge something. Near Camden no.2 box seen in the first pic above, I have left a gap as on the OS map from the era between the up fast and the goods yard approach as there is a cylindrical water tower/tank something like this: only not necessarily the same. I do have a couple of blurred photos. My go-to reference books like LMS Engine Sheds vol 1 don’t have a definite drawing. Any wisdom greatly appreciated. I also need a supply of code 60 fb rail for the 3rd/4th rail. Or similar I guess. Haven’t found a source yet, except for very expensive 24” Peco lengths. Given I need maybe 100’ of it. Any ideas? Iain 16 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 In my post of 13th May showing the cover of the book "Euston to Harrow & Wealdstone" the water tower can be seen. Are you able to compare it to water towers about which you have more detailed information? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanchester Posted May 27, 2021 Share Posted May 27, 2021 In that last 'derrick' picture, it appears to be above a railed-off area. Is the derrick in some way serving some sort of basement facility? And what could that be? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted May 27, 2021 Author Share Posted May 27, 2021 (edited) 11 hours ago, dggar said: In my post of 13th May showing the cover of the book "Euston to Harrow & Wealdstone" the water tower can be seen. Are you able to compare it to water towers about which you have more detailed information? Yes it’s exactly that one. Thanks. I have that photo anyway, and a couple of others too, but not a huge amount of detail. I have only a little info on other examples so hard to compare at the moment. I don’t know whether it was a standard LMS or LNWR item, or something more individual. I would imagine that they used standard items. I can make some sort of fist of its dimensions at least to help locate the track for the goods yard approaches, but it doesn’t need to be completed until later. 6 hours ago, lanchester said: In that last 'derrick' picture, it appears to be above a railed-off area. Is the derrick in some way serving some sort of basement facility? And what could that be? Interesting, thanks. I took the railed off arc as being there to keep people away from the swing of the derrick and it’s mechanism. But I could be wrong. Either way I am probably no definitely not modelling the basement! Really this is about a plausible backdrop, but me being me, I tend to build something from the info I have and then on finishing, immediately find a contradictory photo. See about 124 posts on my other thread concerning Black 5s…. Iain Edited May 27, 2021 by 92220 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 (edited) Iain, The LNWR had two sorts of water columns but most tanks were large rivetted rectangular iron assemblies on brick bases that often incorporated coaling facilities or pumps. However a search shows up several conical water tanks - called parachute tanks - including at Rugby and Aston. These are on the excellent Warwickshire Railways site and show mainly LNWR locos in LMS condition. There is a further photo of the Coventry loop line that shows a "LNWR parachute water tank" at Three Spires in BR diesel days. That one has more detail of the top of the tank and the operating levers, etc. They don't seem to be that common however and I couldn't find anything on the LNWR Society drawings list. https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr_3spires2073a.htm Does the name "parachute tank" have any relevance? Although invented much earlier by Len of Vinci they possibly weren't commonly known about until the Great War. So were they a relatively late introduction to the LNWR to acquire that name? Would that also explain there relative rarity as presumably they would then mainly be later additions to the infrastructure as it was extended or altered. Edited May 28, 2021 by Jol Wilkinson Additional text 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted May 28, 2021 Author Share Posted May 28, 2021 Many thanks indeed, Jol. I had found reference to parachute tanks somewhere although I can’t remember where. These are tight crops of some of the better photos I have - just my photos of photos so hardly the best method. They are all from similar angles. Different details on top of the tanks in each photo. A sheet? Tarp? Iain 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 28, 2021 Share Posted May 28, 2021 (edited) Here are 2 photos from 1953. The first from the Euston book and the 2nd taken by Dick Blenkinsop. In the fore ground of the 2nd you can see the top of a water tank. The water tank appears to be in the yard of the Up Carriage shed. The caption for this states that the train on the down fast is hauled by 45721 Impregnable and the train with the rebuilt Scot on backing out line 4 is the stock for the Down Irish mail. I always thought that a station pilot hauled the stock into the platforms and the train loco backed down later. If you compare the water tank in the 1st photo with the shot I posted earlier( 14th May) of 46200 being piloted by a black 5 (taken in 1957/58) there seems to me an extra fitting on the top of the water tank. Edited May 28, 2021 by dggar 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
92220 Posted May 29, 2021 Author Share Posted May 29, 2021 Thanks again dggar I think the tank I need to model and the one by the new Euston box on your photo are at least close to identical. I can try to scale off some estimated measurements and fabricate something. The base should be ok. The tank itself should be straightforward enough as a cylinder, and I can add rivets and various fittings. The tapered column on which it stands is a different matter - I’m not sure how to go about this yet. Possibly I might need to ask someone to make a 3D print of it. Iain Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dggar Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 I wonder if these 2 photos may be of help. The caption for the Bewdley picture is:- Bewdley water towers, ex-LNWR (left) and ex-GWR (right) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold lezz01 Posted May 29, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 29, 2021 The easiest way to make them would be to turn them in wood. You don't even need a lathe just clamp an electric drill to a bench and use a bit of wood for a rest and use a chisel, surform or rasp to cut the wood. Then clean it up with sand paper. Just be gentle with it and don't try to cut too much in one go and you'll be fine. Of course if you do happen to have a lathe or access to one so much the better. Regards Lez. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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