Camden Shed

[BMacdermott]

Hello Iain

 

Sorry......my plan seems to have loaded sideways!

 

Brian

[steve4rosegrove]

Thanks everyone for their kind comments. This particular bit does make me feel like I'm getting somewhere.

 

Graham - here's a compromise: a bit of playing and a bit of modelling?

 

I had an hour or so to begin weathering some of the stock I've built/converted/butchered/bodged. I think this is the time when you work out whether all the work was worth it, because the models either come alive or they look like a model with some dirty paint on.

 

I didn't fancy ruining one that I'd spent ages on, so I thought I'd begin with the 42' GUV since that could always be covered with more grime - I've got a photo of one on Camden Bank that looks like it's been doing the old RAC rally through Kielder.....

 

Before:

 

image.jpg

 

And after:

 

image.jpg

 

An old Bachmann/Mainline/Replica RMB, again before and after:

 

image.jpg

 

image.jpg

 

One of the mk1 subs:

 

image.jpg

 

image.jpg

 

And the playing bit?

 

Remarshalled parcels rake passes the goods shed, no.1 box, under the footbridge and begins its descent of the bank:

 

image.jpg

 

Iain

Mmmmmmmm  Kielder, before the World Rip-off Champoinship moved to South Wales.

[92220]

Very interesting idea, Brian. Thank you for the thought. I think I'm probably going to try to avoid gradients of any sort, but I will still keep this idea in mind.

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain

[92220]

It's been a very long while since I did anything noteworthy on the layout itself, and my only modelling activity recently has been to mess around with a few locos - detailed on the Motive Power for Camden Shed thread.

 

The main reason for this has been the ongoing process of our possible house build, which has meant an uncertain future for this version of Camden Shed. Well, a fairly certain future actually, in that it wouldn't continue in current form. I decided some time ago that it wouldn't be left unaltered, whether or not we move. The uncertainty has been what form that future might take - an alteration or a rebuild.

 

As many of you know from your own travails, the whole process can be a lengthy one, but it looks closer and closer to reality for us now. 6 years to find a plot, 2 more to get something both realistic and fitting our requirements through the planning process, and we are almost.....I barely dare write it, but almost able to get started.

 

So, with apologies for the lengthy post, I have begun designing Camden Shed 2, which will, gauge notwithstanding, be as close to a scale model as I can get of the same section I've built here, between the footbridge and the Regents Park Road bridge. There is a little simplification of the track plan, but not too much. I thought about EM - Vincent Worthington and Mick Moore have certainly tried to persuade me - but it's just not realistic to regauge all the locos. I hope to include a bit more of the Camden Goods Station and sidings (let's face it, I could hardly include less of it) and of the Primrose Hill Station building. The screenshot below shows the current state of the templot plan overlaid on the track plan.

 

 

I've not completed the goods yard yet, nor have I gone back and done all the v and k crossings, the extra check rails, and any timber shoving.

 

With luck, all the buildings so far attempted bar the station building ought to be transferred to the new layout. The water tank, coaling tower and ash plant are built pretty much to scale. The two bridges are close to correct and the minor simplifications referred to above are partly to accommodate the slightly too short bridges. Both signal boxes are ok, although the goods yard one will need a new base as it is too wide. The rough stores building is OK, and the goods shed side is fine but will need a new front and back, plus a couple of new roof sections. The station building is probably best started again, and the associated staircase, buildings and platform are no better than an impression. I'm hoping that the best bits of the backscene are also salvageable.

 

I'd like to include the 3rd and 4th rail, and the beginning of the dive under.

 

I have all sorts of questions but two main ones: please do contribute useful thoughts if you have any.

 

1. Board joins and baseboard construction.

 

While the house is being built, I would like to begin building the baseboards and at least some of the track. I need therefore to get a clear idea of the baseboard design and construction. Apart from the dive under, the area is entirely flat so I don't need any kind of open frame construction. The problem is to work out where the baseboard joins can go. I have thought about a seemingly complex system where the four main lines are on one series of curved boards, to which are joined two further series of boards for the shed area on the south west side and the station and goods yard on the north east. Alternatives are to stick with a simple series of wide boards that fit together but choosing the locations of the joins to avoid key areas of S&C. The overall width will be about 5'6" but reachable from both sides.

 

It needs to be built in sections in order to get it into the new house, and indeed maybe out again at some stage.

 

2. Fiddle yard design

 

I can't get too ridiculous about trying to portray exact workings because I don't have an aircraft hangar or 2000 coaches. But broadly this is how the layout should work.

 

Up trains (right to left on the plan) are a mile from Euston. The loco will come back on shed, turn and be serviced, then back down to Euston to take another train. The stock may come back on the down lines as a down train, or as ecs to Willesden off stage right. Or just become another up train by going round again. I may have to adjust my Tony Wright coupling system to have a hook at both ends of each rake. No marshalling will take place. Electrics will be easy: they go to Euston on the up slow and come back a bit later on the down slow.

 

Down trains go off to all places north, so they don't need to reappear too quickly. In reality, the locos in charge of down trains will need to be detached and stored for a short but plausible while, before reappearing. By that stage nobody will remember so they can pull another down train. Or up. So maybe the fiddle yard needs a turntable, or a spur with cassettes or a loco lift.

 

So, as I see it, I need to come to a clear view how the fiddle yard will need to work before I work out its plan.

 

Simple answer I suppose is to plan for all eventualities, have every line reachable from every other line, and have one through road for down and up yards. But that will mean a huge number of large radius curved switches and crossings, with probably a load of 3-way and slips as well. I just feel that is extra complexity and will lead to more likelihood of problems. The alternative is to think what's actually required. But my brain hurts a bit.

 

Pencil and paper may be the solution.

 

Late night ramble. Apologies.

 

Iain

[George Leacon]

Will the structures & buildings you've created already at least be saved?

[farren]

You mention the dive under do you have plans to make it working? With a under bord storage maybe.

[92220]

Will the structures & buildings you've created already at least be saved?

  

 

Yes, it's buried somewhere in that very long ramble but everything except the station building and the base of one of the signal boxes should be fine.

 

You mention the dive under do you have plans to make it working? With a under bord storage maybe.

Hi Farren,

 

No. Just the indication of the beginning of the dive under as it shows approaching the bridge. This wonderful pic courtesy of Stanley should show it better:

 

 

The original is a few pages back.

 

The idea would be to get the two slow / DC electric lines to begin to dip down as they approach the end of the scenic section, then to rise again off scene to make the whole fiddle yard level and flat. I'm trying to avoid gradients in general, but this should be ok. I hope.

 

Thinking further about fiddle yard design. Will sketch out a few ideas I hope.

 

Iain

[92220]

This post from Norton961 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113698-the-longsight-patriot/?p=2413181 in the Longsight Patriot thread has a wonderful picture of 45530 Sir Frank Ree passing Camden Goods

 

 

45530 was on my list anyway, but it might have gone further up the pecking order!

 

Iain

[Jol Wilkinson]

This post from Norton961 http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/113698-the-longsight-patriot/?p=2413181 in the Longsight Patriot thread has a wonderful picture of 45530 Sir Frank Ree passing Camden Goods

 

image.jpeg

 

45530 was on my list anyway, but it might have gone further up the pecking order!

 

Iain

Iain,

 

that takes me back to my youth. If I wasn't more interested in Edwardian LNWR that's the period I would model.

 

Jol

[Black5]

Hi Ian, I don`t know if you`ve seen this picture before. It`s on the cover of Loco Profiles No 37----L M S Pacifics.

The picture is dated 3-6-1962. The reason for posting it was it shows a different down pipe arrangement from the tank compared to the picture on page 18 in the Rod Steele book and that was taken in July `62.

Whether this fits into your modelling timescale or not i don`t know and if you have already seen the picture my apologies.

Took a look at your proposed new layout on your blog. That`s some project. Enough to keep you occupied for a while!

 

Cheers just now,

 

Jim.[attachment=757557:IMG_1864s.jpg

[Jamiel]

Someone just posted this photo on a Facebook group I am a member of, and I thought it might be a good reference for you. It is from 1951.

 

Jamie

Edited October 16, 2016 by Jamiel

[92220]

Hi Jim,

 

Thanks for posting that pic - I have got it but never tire of seeing it. One of my favourite areas of the layout.

Not sure how the pipe arrangement is different to the Rod Steele pic, or to Stanley's diagram, though?

 

 

Hi Jamie,

 

That is a wonderful photo too. A bit before my era and somewhere around a mile further south, but very evocative. If you have MRJ 172, you can see Vincent Worthington's depiction of the same scene. My camera phone pic, further downsized for the site, is below:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_02_2014/post-10140-0-56123100-1391939622.jpg

 

One of the finest pieces of urban mainline modelling ever?

 

Iain

[Tony Teague]

Hi Iain

Just found and worked through your inspirational thread.

I am particularly envious of your architectural modelling and related painting skills - something that I really want to do better at myself in the future.

Will follow your new / revised developments wit interest

Best wishes

Tony

[ianwales]

Hi Iain

 

Don't know if this is of any interest to you for Camden, 3d printed bodies for the ex LMS Oerlikon and GEC units towards the bottom of the page- http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/3d_printed_trains1.htm

 

Ian

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hi Iain

 

Don't know if this is of any interest to you for Camden, 3d printed bodies for the ex LMS Oerlikon and GEC units towards the bottom of the page- http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/3d_printed_trains1.htm

 

Ian

Ian,

 

at those prices, you would be better of with the London Road Models etched Oerlikon set. I believe some progress has also been made with the patterns for the under-fame details, so LRM should be able to offer most of the parts required to build a complete model soon

 

In my view the surface finish of 3D printed items still is not yet good enough for carriages and locos, unless you are willing to spend considerably more. I have several resin wagon kits produced from moulds made with 3D patterns and these are just acceptable, but not comparable with cast w/m or injection moulded kits.

 

Jol

[92220]

Hi Iain

 

Don't know if this is of any interest to you for Camden, 3d printed bodies for the ex LMS Oerlikon and GEC units towards the bottom of the page- http://www.rue-d-etropal.com/3D-printing/3d_printed_trains1.htm

 

Ian

  

Ian,

 

at those prices, you would be better of with the London Road Models etched Oerlikon set. I believe some progress has also been made with the patterns for the under-fame details, so LRM should be able to offer most of the parts required to build a complete model soon

 

In my view the surface finish of 3D printed items still is not yet good enough for carriages and locos, unless you are willing to spend considerably more. I have several resin wagon kits produced from moulds made with 3D patterns and these are just acceptable, but not comparable with cast w/m or injection moulded kits.

 

Jol

Ian, Jol,

 

Many thanks. My plan is that Camden Shed mk2 will definitely have the 3rd/4th rail DC lines and so some Watford electrics will need building. I'll need education though: are the GEC sets the 501s? As I understand it, all the Oerlikon sets were withdrawn by 1960 so at best there would be a minority of those by the loosely 59-61 period I'm modelling? I've only had a brief look at what I might do to build the 501s, uncovering a DC kits version, and a Replica rtr conversion so far. It's a way into the future yet.

 

In the meantime, recovering from a back operation, I've managed to make a bit of progress on this:

 

 

 

Trailing truck incomplete obviously.

Quite a few alterations - I'll put a few more details on the Motive Power thread.

 

Iain

[jcarta]

Iain

 

I have so missed this thread but more importantly I'm glad you're on the road to recovery......

 

Looking forward to new updates.

 

Jim

Edited February 16, 2017 by jcarta

[chrisf]

The GEC sets are the compartment ones built by the LMS in the 1920s.  Terry Tew has cut and shut one for his Earls Court layout.

 

Chris

[92220]

Thanks Jim and Chris.

 

Progress report: in among recovering from a back op and trying to catch up with what I haven't done at work as a result of said op, I've built, at least most of, a couple of locos. Specifically:

46248 City of Leeds - Hornby body, Comet frames, Comet detailing and a pile of lead.

46256 Sir William Stanier - DJH kit modified and detailed with various bits

46144 Honorable Artillery Company - Hornby body and Comet frames

2 Jinties - both Bachmann bodies and Comet frames. I can't remember which numbers these were destined to be.

73274 - the BR Standard 5 Caprotti Crosti neverwazzabutmighthavebeena

 

All have been shown on other threads bar the Jinties, which I will rectify at some point.

 

All will see service on Camden Shed mk2, though 73274 might only be an occasional visitor.

 

I've also begun packing up Camden Shed mk1. Making bespoke foamboard boxes for the bridges and buildings to protect them in storage, the move and the new build.

 

I have also had a go at planning the basic arrangement for the fiddle yard for mk2.

 

 

The scenic side, for comparison (obviously I should have done the entire thing as one but computer issues meant I couldn't)

 

 

A bit of explanation:

 

After visiting Tony Wright's remarkable Little Bytham, one of the many things that stuck in my mind was the excellent, almost faultless, running. Both Tony himself and Norman Solomon are in a different league to me as regards modelling, so I thought I might try not to do things in a more complicated way than people who are more capable than me. If that makes sense. Hence the new fiddle yard is designed here with all Peco large radius turnouts, and all the curved track from the end of the scenic section to the start of the FY will be plain. So I won't have endless copperclad curved D12s and C10s, any one of which might be a fraction out.

 

The pink rectangle is the lifting section - no more ducking under.

 

The red is the light engine line for locos to reverse down to "Euston" and from there to take down trains up the bank and past Camden Shed. These can access both fast (roads 13-16 from the top) and slow (9-12) although some of the slow traffic will be Watford electrics. Accessing the slow lines does involve a reverse but I thought that preferable to adding diamond crossings and another turnout on the curve.

 

The light green is the line for locos having pulled up trains into "Euston" to reverse up to Camden Shed to be serviced and turned. (I've spotted my first mistake, which is that any loco at the head of an up train on the slow lines (roads 5-8 from the top of the FY) can't uncouple then crossover to the fast through line (road 1 from the top) and reverse back to the light green line. But I'll rectify that). This line has to cross all the others but as it's light engine only, the gradients and curves shouldn't be a problem.

 

The two dark green are for loco lifts or cassette equivalents.

 

The yellow is a simple and separate FY for the goods yard.

 

Remembering that the function of the layout is:

 

Watching mainline trains and suburban services go by

Light engine and servicing moves around the shed with the coaler, ashplant, turntable and shed itself.

Jinties with coal and ash wagons coming on and off shed

Light engine moves to and from "Euston" i.e. the FY

A bit of shunting in the goods yard as a secondary and separate project - there is no connection to the main lines

 

I would like to hear any views you might have.

 

Originally I had thought this would be a layout where all the pointwork was controlled through traditional means, and the locos would be DCC. Now I'm not so sure. Expense, metal kits, complexity and seeing LB function perfectly on DC have changed my mind a bit.

 

Anyway, fire away.

 

Iain

[Michael Edge]

I would suggest that you put at least one crossover between up and down sides of your fiddle yard, you never know when you might need to cross trains/stock over without running round the layout.

[92220]

I would suggest that you put at least one crossover between up and down sides of your fiddle yard, you never know when you might need to cross trains/stock over without running round the layout.

Thanks Mike. The layout is almost 4 separate circuits, segregating trains up, down, fast and slow. Maybe I do need more flexibility. Given my loco-hauled stock is unidirectional using TW's method, I won't need that for many trains, but I could use some sort of crossover between the up and down slow yards for the electrics.

 

I'm not going to be able to replicate easily the move where the up loco banked the stock ECS out of Euston and up the bank, detaching and crossing over to the shed. I'll just pretend it detached halfway up the bank!

 

Thanks,

 

Iain

[Michael Edge]

Even if it's only for moving  stock by hand from one side to the other of the fiddle yard it's very useful.

[Buhar]

Given my loco-hauled stock is unidirectional using TW's method,

 

Hi Iain,

I take it you mean the hook and goalpost.  How is that unidirectional?  Either the wire hook is pulling the bar or the bar is pulling the hook.  The system is handed but will travel in both directions.

[92220]

Hi Iain,

I take it you mean the hook and goalpost.  How is that unidirectional?  Either the wire hook is pulling the bar or the bar is pulling the hook.  The system is handed but will travel in both directions.

Alan,

True. But the tail vehicle in each rake has no hook. It has (or will have) the unconnected pipes and a hanging buckeye on the Mk1s or a screw coupling on the ex-LMS stock. So while it could be pulled from either end, there won't be any way to connect to a loco. Unless I change my plan.

Iain

[farren]

Hi Iain hope your feeling better after the op. As I am thinking of a similar layout in the end. Once i finish collage and university. Though nothing so grandiose as Camden, but rather sticking to Leicester Midland. I was thinking of using good old fashioned Brassmaster fittings for Coaches for the train. With kade couplers between locomotives and train to make things easier. Which gives a realistic feel on the main. And the option to run the train in both directions. I was wondering if you had tried this approach considering your layout is more advanced then main