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Camden Shed

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On 15/11/2019 at 08:26, Michael Edge said:

This is the arrangement of the mainline storage sidings for Carlisle (diagram, not trackplan) with separate up and down loops. Through lines run outside the loops and shown in red. Originally the layout was to have two sets of these end to end but one was abolished to make way for Garsdale - and now of course there isn't enough storage space....

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_11/838531336_ScreenShot2019-11-15at08_22_00.png.fc97b5370896265a65dd328bf508cbf6.png

Mike,

 

does the operating sequence call for any train "reversals" or do they stay running in the same direction. 

 

I am "planning" a new project and reversing a number of the train movements is important for reasonably realistic operation. So the "fiddle yard" will need some sort of run round facility and loco turntable. Balancing the maximum number of lines, etc.  within a relatively narrow width is taxing the grey matter.

 

Jol

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Most trains on Carlisle keep running in the same direction but we have two return loops to turn them round if required. There were supposed to be three, one each for up and down main and one for the Maryport & Carlisle but the up main one was left out when we added Garsdale. The remaining down loop can hold about 5 or 6 trains, the M&C loop is accessed via the goods avoiding lines outside the station. These loops are extremely easy to operate, mostly they hold one train each (sometimes two shorter ones) and are set with one switch changing points at each end. Goods trains use a separate similar arrangement at the side of the main line loops.

890347582_ScreenShot2019-11-16at13_23_21.png.c6783af553e61b1af9eacbca2c132199.png

This is the whole layout diagram, down return loop is in red at the left, the up one would have gone in a similar configuration where Garsdale is now. The goods loops in green at the bottom of the plan, M&C loops top left (these are actually under Upperby). All sorts of additional storage has been added in various places to accommodate more and more stock including separate loops to enable the Hawes branch to operate. One thing I insisted on in the storage sidings was occasional crossovers between up and down to facilitate stock transfers - something we didn't put in Chapel en le Frith's fiddle yard but which would have been very useful.

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I do need to go and visit Carlisle. Better take my weathering stuff and Sprog though.

Baz

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Hello Iain

 

I have attached a very rough schematic plan of my 25ft x 10ft layout in the hope it might help your thoughts.

 

In essence, it is a looped eight with two reverse loops (each Radius 1, 2 and 3). The yellow areas are 'scenic', the remainder 'off scene'. 

 

The station is a 4-platform + bay affair, about 20ft long, akin to Exeter Central or Oxford. It has a loco depot on one side, rather like Bournemouth Central.

 

To explain...a train leaves the station towards the right of the plan and enters a 180 degree tunnel. It has climbed to about 1.5 inches off base level. When it emerges from the tunnel, it is on a double track section which has a 'slow line' to one side and two 'goods loops' on the other.

 

The 4-road carriage sidings are to the far side and the 6-road sorting sidings are towards the operating well.

 

The train climbs towards the next tunnel where it is about 3 inches above base level and passes over the station throat (still hidden).

 

From here, it can enter the reverse loops or avoid them and continue forward, gradually descending until it reaches the station. A train can run in the other direction and take the same actions. Most trains will go round the loops to form firstly a Down service, returning as an Up service or vice versa.

 

The layout easily handles 20 'service trains' ranging from double-headed 10-coach expresses to a short pick-up freight. Loco shed handles at least 20 locos without looking crowded. The same goes for the sorting and carriage sidings.

 

The Radius 3 right hand reverse loop handles two double-headed 10-coach expresses. The left hand loops, slightly less. The tracks in the hidden sections are used as 'linear storage' - one train stores behind another very closely (as if in a sort of 'hidden permissive block' scenario). 

 

The layout can be operated in such a way that 'the spare space' gets filled up with trains'; I then move them all along so that they are ready for the next session; this frees up the space as previously. Rather like the Americans undertake what they call 'staging'.

 

IMG_5663.JPG.3878ee5c8030a8a0d7941beab26574ee.JPG

 

Brian

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Hi Iain,

 

Here is a 'concept plan' (similar to Brian above) so not a detailed trackplan at this stage. If you're happy with the ideas, I can work it up into a trackplan; if not then we can play about until you're happy.

 

Camden_fiddle_yard1.jpg.b09234b3a82290355058d30bfcba5d81.jpg

At it's heart are the four running lines (Down Fast; Down Slow; Up Slow; Up Fast), each with an as yet undetermined number of loops. Could be staggered, could be two trains to a loop - doesn't matter at this stage. In the middle are a number of reversible roads (again, exact configuration not determined).

 

If we trace an 'Up' train heading into Euston then, whether on the fast or slows, it can use the crossovers bottom right to access the Euston Reversible and terminate. A loco from shed can then back down the loco line and, using the crossovers top right, back on to the arrived train. In due course it departs in the 'Down' direction and can duly access either fast or slow. Once departed, the loco that brought it in can then reverse out onto the loco line and thus to shed. Either that or it can remain on the rear of the departing train and drop off alongside the shed as if it had banked the train up Camden bank.

 

To maintain the balance of trains, there is an equal and opposite arrangement at the country ('north') end. Here I'm suggesting the use of a loco lift to replace the locos.

 

Anyhow, let me know how many of your boxes that ticks and we can take it from there.

 

Cheers,

 

Graham

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Hi Graham,

 

Many thanks indeed. That’s created quite a bit more clarity for me.  I think the down side works as you suggest, pretty much unaltered.  I wonder whether the addition of a loco lift spur in green on the edited photo below would allow any down train loco arriving in the storage yard to be removed.  It would then be stored, turned and after an appropriate delay, at some point in the future added via a second loco lift spur in blue to the front of an up train for return to “Euston”.   

 

Any up train arriving in the storage yard i.e. at “Euston”, would need its loco detaching and reversing to the shed, which I’ve added in red.  The exact point at which this line rises up and crosses the runnng lines isn’t where I’ve put it, obviously.  Of course, we could achieve that via the blue loco lift spur and a manual return to the loco reversing line at the south end of the shed.  But that will involve a lot more handling and manoeuvring.  

 

FB5A3A38-E095-40F1-9E35-C956DBBBFC5C.jpeg.0f5e8ec798726724e4ce080c631a825b.jpeg

 

What do you think?

 

Best wishes from China,

 

Iain

 

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This is the layout for the fiddle yard on Worseter. It allows trains to arrive on UP lines and leave on DOWN lines and vice versa. One track needs to be clear for loco run round from the turntables.

 

1888741769_Fiddleyard.jpg.31af18a7f3a38adb43f339eb30b0a86c.jpg

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Hello Iain

 

It's good that you are considering these various ideas - it will pay dividends!

 

When I was planning out my layout, I stood in the empty room for days messing around with point templates etc. One major discovery was the positioning of the points for the reverse loops. On my (very rough!) sketch above, they look about centre. In fact, they are slightly biased to the left.

 

This permitted two double-headed trains to store in the right hand outer loop, whereas if the points had been 'dead centre', then they would not have fitted by about three inches. It made no real difference to the left hand loops (for a number of reasons).

 

It's good to draw things out on paper, but proofs of puddings are in eatings. Lay it out on the floor and use some 'dummy trains' to work it through. Can you reach? Will couplers uncouple? What if a point 'fails', how can you replace it? Etc etc.

 

Brian

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John,

 

Many thanks for sharing that plan.  Interesting and very useful.  I’m a huge admirer of your modelling, but that doesn’t make me particularly unusual at all.

 

I don’t think it will work in its entirety for Camden as up locos have to reverse back onto shed fairly soon after hauling their train past the shed to Euston.  However, down locos have to reverse off shed, pick up their train in the storage yard, and then haul it past the shed on the down lines.  Then they remain scarce for a while, to simulate taking a train to somewhere, before bringing an up train back to Euston at some point in the future.

So the down side could incorporate a turntable, transfer to the up side of the yard and loco storage off scene.  

 

Of course, I haven’t got enough locos yet but this gives me an excuse to build them, and I want to plan a storage yard and layout that will accommodate roughly realistic working when I finally build it.

 

 

Brian,

 

Thank you. 

Attempting to avoid things like that!

 

Iain

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Hi Iain,

 

Been thinking through your comments further, leading to a few points for clarification.

 

Would I be right in saying that what is important to you is that the LOCOS work to and from the shed and away from / return towards Euston just as they would but you're not so bothered about the stock? (my concept idea includes both locos AND trains reversing).

 

In other words, if an 'Up'  train heads past the shed towards Euston and then the loco is detached and reverses to shed, if subsequently another loco from the 'country' end is attached to the same set of stock and that then heads past the shed towards Euston, it doesn't bother you that it is the same set of stock?

 

The 'flyover' arrangement that you refer to - is that something that you would like to incorporate into your layout (strictly speaking, it should be a 'dive under'!) or is that something you think you need for layout operation purposes? If the latter then, combined with the above thought, it doesn't need to be a flyover - we simply re-designate the 'reversible' line I've shown in the centre of my diagram as a 'loco release' line (or lines) to achieve the same aim. This could be combined with a turntable / storage yard at the country end (as per John's plan) for locos transferring from 'down' to 'up' side. You do lose a road in the fiddle yard though.

 

You asked in an earlier post re the empty stock returning to Willesden or using the 'downside' carriage sheds just outside the station (recently demolished to make was for HS2 of course!). That prompted me to consider the nature of this aspect of the operation of Euston and locos going to and from shed. When you say that locos 'have to reverse back onto shed fairly soon after hauling their train past the shed' ... well ... yes, but only after (or as part of) their stock being released at the station (ie there were no 'run round' crossovers at the buffer stop ends to allow a loco to reverse out past its stock, so far as I'm aware). A loco had to wait until a pilot coupled up to the country end to haul the stock out of the station. As you know, often the train loco would be part of this manoeuvre, effectively acting as banker to get the stock up the 1-in-70 as far as the shed.

 

 I can look at a plan which could possibly replicate this, using the centre section of the fiddle yard as the carriage sidings?

 

One other thought with this is that I am aware that a lot of your locos and stock has the TW goalpost and wire coupling arrangement, meaning that automatic uncoupling in the fiddle yard is not always going to be possible. So the train loco reversing out at the rear of its stock does have the advantage of reducing the amount of uncoupling required in the fiddle yard - provided that you can live with the slight anomaly of stopping an ECS train alongside the shed whilst you uncouple the train loco (as you know, in reality they just dropped off at the top of the incline, allowing the ECS movement to continue onwards)

 

I'm pretty certain that the majority of the stock for the principal mainline expresses was tripped to and from Euston and Willesden (for cleaning and preparing - and possibly remarshalling - ready for the return run). The carriage sheds near the station were either used for local stock or parcels stock. More intensively used local / suburban stock may well have just stayed in the station until their next working, the inbound train loco thus being released as a result of the next passenger departure of that stock.

 

On a similar theme, there was of course a small loco yard (including a turntable) at the station which would be used for 'foreign' locos on a quick turn round (eg Bushbury locos on the Birmingham trains) - in which case they wouldn't have been seen on the main depot. Do you want to replicate that aspect at all?

 

 

At the end of the day, it all boils down to how YOU want to operate YOUR layout! With the space you've got, the fiddle yard can be more or less configured accordingly.

 

Sorry - there seems to be a lot of questions there! But hope it helps clarify a few things further.

 

Graham

 

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Hi Graham,

 

Thanks very much indeed.  Your questions are excellent. No need to apologise at all!

 

If I take them in order:

 

“Would I be right in saying that what is important to you is that the LOCOS work to and from the shed and away from / return towards Euston just as they would but you're not so bothered about the stock? (my concept idea includes both locos AND trains reversing).

 

In other words, if an 'Up'  train heads past the shed towards Euston and then the loco is detached and reverses to shed, if subsequently another loco from the 'country' end is attached to the same set of stock and that then heads past the shed towards Euston, it doesn't bother you that it is the same set of stock?”

 

Yes that’s correct.  I would like the locos to behave roughly prototypically.  I don’t think I will have enough stock for a very long time indeed if at all, to represent all the necessary trains.  Of course, the Caledonian, Royal Scot, Midday Scot and Midlander ought to make an appearance in each direction eventually.   Plus lesser express passenger workings.

 

mmmm..... now I’ve started thinking.  Always dangerous, I know.

 

What about the other named trains?  Merseyside Express.  Irish Mail.  Maybe these each ought to be represented by a bidirectional train as I’ll never build both up and down versions of each.  Thinking further, if one Caledonian set, for example, (in real life) arrived as an up train at Euston, it would be taken out past the shed to Willesden as ecs, then returned to Euston as ecs, before departing as a down train in the same formation as it arrived.  So one set of each train on the layout could represent both up and down trains and ecs quite easily, if all roads were accessible from all 4 lines. No, in case anyone asks, I won’t be adding and removing passengers between workings.

 

If that’s the case, then the number of bidirectional lines in the yard would need to be increased, but also need to be accessible from the fast lines which are the outer two as you rightly have them.  

 

“The 'flyover' arrangement that you refer to - is that something that you would like to incorporate into your layout (strictly speaking, it should be a 'dive under'!) or is that something you think you need for layout operation purposes? If the latter then, combined with the above thought, it doesn't need to be a flyover - we simply re-designate the 'reversible' line I've shown in the centre of my diagram as a 'loco release' line (or lines) to achieve the same aim. This could be combined with a turntable / storage yard at the country end (as per John's plan) for locos transferring from 'down' to 'up' side. You do lose a road in the fiddle yard though.”

 

The flyover was just to get the up locos reversing back onto shed across the running lines to the shed, without 4 shallow angle curved diamonds and the consequent increased chances of derailments.  If I was going to do that, I could have slips and so forth on the curves at the end and so have all roads accessible from all lines. I turned it from a dive under to a flyover because it was off scene and I felt a flyover left less track under cover and so problems would be fewer.  I am probably being slow, but I can’t quite see how using the centre lines as a loco release line would be possible without the locos moving back and forth.  Unless the point above - expanding the reversible lines and using bidirectional named trains, becomes what I do.  Or, how about a design where all trains are bidirectional and we have fast and slow yards?

To do that I might have been better to build a two level yard, I think?

 

“You asked in an earlier post re the empty stock returning to Willesden or using the 'downside' carriage sheds just outside the station (recently demolished to make was for HS2 of course!). That prompted me to consider the nature of this aspect of the operation of Euston and locos going to and from shed. When you say that locos 'have to reverse back onto shed fairly soon after hauling their train past the shed' ... well ... yes, but only after (or as part of) their stock being released at the station (ie there were no 'run round' crossovers at the buffer stop ends to allow a loco to reverse out past its stock, so far as I'm aware). A loco had to wait until a pilot coupled up to the country end to haul the stock out of the station. As you know, often the train loco would be part of this manoeuvre, effectively acting as banker to get the stock up the 1-in-70 as far as the shed.”

 

Yes, so some locos ought to replicate the banking stock out of the station move, then fall off and go on shed via the scissors from the up fast to the shed.  I imagine that ecs was on the up slow by that point so the crossovers from up slow to up fast would be used as well.  From what I’ve read, some locos fell back by the top of the bank and went on shed without changing direction.  Others banked their stock past the crossovers and then fell back and went forwards (southwards) onto shed.  But I don’t know if that is true.

 

Other locos can simply reverse back onto shed light engine.  This is where the flyover come in.

 

“”One other thought with this is that I am aware that a lot of your locos and stock has the TW goalpost and wire coupling arrangement, meaning that automatic uncoupling in the fiddle yard is not always going to be possible. So the train loco reversing out at the rear of its stock does have the advantage of reducing the amount of uncoupling required in the fiddle yard - provided that you can live with the slight anomaly of stopping an ECS train alongside the shed whilst you uncouple the train loco (as you know, in reality they just dropped off at the top of the incline, allowing the ECS movement to continue onwards)”

 

I was thinking of an unobtrusive coupling hook at each end of each rake, but retaining the TW system between vehicles within each rake.  Alex Jackson?  Though uncoupling a loco banking its train back up the bank while on the move may be a challenge.

 

“I'm pretty certain that the majority of the stock for the principal mainline expresses was tripped to and from Euston and Willesden (for cleaning and preparing - and possibly remarshalling - ready for the return run). The carriage sheds near the station were either used for local stock or parcels stock. More intensively used local / suburban stock may well have just stayed in the station until their next working, the inbound train loco thus being released as a result of the next passenger departure of that stock.”

 

See above.  Suburban and parcels stock can still go as up and down trains without the ecs moves in between.

 

“On a similar theme, there was of course a small loco yard (including a turntable) at the station which would be used for 'foreign' locos on a quick turn round (eg Bushbury locos on the Birmingham trains) - in which case they wouldn't have been seen on the main depot. Do you want to replicate that aspect at all?”

 

Good point.  No, I think I prefer any and all up locos to come on shed at Camden.  Might as well showcase what I’ve built!

 

So in summary, I wonder what a storage yard would look like with all bidirectional roads accessed from any line.  I will probably need to plan train lengths to do this properly?

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Best wishes,

 

Iain

 

 

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