Bill Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I discovered a painting of a very diferent underground train in a childrens book. It is called "Off By Train ABC"... (It would have to be Arsenal LU station...) I thought the artist had made it up or had a mental block about painting 1938 stock. However on searching the web discovered a few rather bad images of 1935 stock which became the prototype for the 1938 stock. Does anyone know any more?Have access to better B&W and coloured images? I uploaded the entire book, for nostalgic reasons, here.. http://www.railwayst....org/abcUV.html It should cause a lot of mirth! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnb Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Have a look here:- http://www.districtdave.co.uk/ and do a search for 1935 stock or experimental stock There's info there and some very good links to other underground sites of interest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardml2341 Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 IIRC, the Abbey Road Underground layout has a model of one of these Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Radley Models do a kit of the experimental stock. It didn't though run in passenger service iirc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The LURS devoted an edition of their House magzine Underground News to it many years ago that gives you chapter and verse on the 1935 Experimental stock, the 18 Streamline DMs and the 6 Flat Fronted DMs. The Flat Fronted design was what became the 1938 Stock. I read somewhere that there are no colour photos, at least not in the public domain, of the 1935 stock, only B&W ones. The picture on the cover of Brian Hardy's "Underground Train File - Tube Stock 1933-1959" must have been 'colourised' for the book. The Experimental stock first ran in service in April 1937, and they continued until Autumn 1940 as 6 car sets, but were unreliable and spent a lot iof time in the depot having faults sorted out. They spent the rest of WW2 in storage. After the end of WW2 the streamline DMs were converted to 1938 Stock spec as Trailers and ran in revenue service in that guise for many years. The Flat Fronted cars ended up on the eastern end of the Central line as shuttles, with 3 of the 1927 Trailers converted to be compatible to run with them as 3 car sets. The yeven ended up being painted silver to match the 1962 Stock. One set, without its Trailer became the experimental test bed for articulated tube trains. That set ended its life as a shunter, as it didn't suffer from "gapping" becasue of its much longer combined wheelbase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Phl Radley has made a kit of the 1935 Streamline stock if you fancy running the Streamliners on your layout. Also the 'flattened' version too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thanks for all the help - The artist must have witnessed the Streamlined stock for himself to have chosen to paint it - so it dates this picture to to just before WW2. Did he paint it from a photo of the 1935 stock in Arsenal LU station?- If so I wonder where that photo may be hiding? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thanks for all the help - The artist must have witnessed the Streamlined stock for himself to have chosen to paint it - so it dates this picture to to just before WW2. Did he paint it from a photo of the 1935 stock in Arsenal LU station?- If so I wonder where that photo may be hiding? I'm not sure that he did, use a photo. The proportions look wrong, the rolling stock is too tall. My first impression was that it was of the set that had the cab modified to allow the driver to drive standing as opposed to the seated position. I think it would have been from memory. EDIT: In your illustration the driver would have had no problem if he'd chosen to drive standing up. Remember the 1930s were the era of streamlining. The 1935 Experimental stock made it into other childrens books. There is a one illustration that I've seen of properly proportioned Streamlined stock, it might have been in the "Eagle", with cut-away parts indicating the main features. Look at my avatar which is 38 Stock then look at the illustration that you found and I think you'll see what I mean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 20, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 20, 2012 ISTR that the streamlined ends fell from favour not least because when two units were joined with the streamlined cabs in the middle, the train lost some useful length and hence seats. Given that the 1935 stock was the first tube stock to hide all the running gear underneath - in contrast to Standard Stock which had it on the frame behind the driver - it did seem a bit silly to then waste space on styling fripperies. The flat ends of the 1938 stock set a high standard for function with acceptable form, such that the 1956 and 1960 prototypes pretty much aped its general layout. When you can't really improve upon a 20-year old design, it was probably quite good to start with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ISTR that the streamlined ends fell from favour not least because when two units were joined with the streamlined cabs in the middle, the train lost some useful length and hence seats. Given that the 1935 stock was the first tube stock to hide all the running gear underneath - in contrast to Standard Stock which had it on the frame behind the driver - it did seem a bit silly to then waste space on styling fripperies. Not sure it was styling friperry as such, but it was definitely the prevalent stye of the time. Especially as more was being learned about the benefits of aerodynamics in the aeronautical field, so natural some of that would filter to some extent perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Not sure it was styling friperry as such, but it was definitely the prevalent stye of the time. Especially as more was being learned about the benefits of aerodynamics in the aeronautical field, so natural some of that would filter to some extent perhaps. I agree with you Kelly. The 35 stock was at one stage known as the High Speed Tube Train, and the new stock was partly needed for the New Works extensions, particularly on the Piccadilly line above ground where the stations were further apart and the design would be more beneficial in theory. The streamlined look also fitted in with the modern image the newly formed LTPB was trying to achieve. The flat ended design allowed 2 more seats per DM car over the streamlied ones, so the addional space gained by moving to a flat front design wasn't enormous. The big gain was putting the equipment under floor. The flat front design became the final design for the 38 stock as early as the Spring of 1938 with a flat fronted set being transferred to the Northern Line for gauging tests in March 38. The streamline design wasn't popular with drivers apparently The 56 stock, which was the forerunner of the 59 Piccadilly stock and 62 Central stock, was effectively the 38 design updated in an aluminium body shell. Many of the innovations had been trialled on modified 38 stock cars. BTW, as a passenger you could easily tell the difference between 59 and 62 Tube Stock apart from the difference in train length. The 59 had blue upholstery and blue armrests whilst the 62 stock had the red/grey pattern upholstery, first used on the A60 and A62 stock, and red armrests. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I agree with you Kelly. The 35 stock was at one stage known as the High Speed Tube Train, and the new stock was partly needed for the New Works extensions, particularly on the Piccadilly line above ground where the stations were further apart and the design would be more beneficial in theory. The streamlined look also fitted in with the modern image the newly formed LTPB was trying to achieve. The flat ended design allowed 2 more seats per DM car over the streamlied ones, so the addional space gained by moving to a flat front design wasn't enormous. The big gain was putting the equipment under floor. The flat front design became the final design for the 38 stock as early as the Spring of 1938 with a flat fronted set being transferred to the Northern Line for gauging tests in March 38. The streamline design wasn't popular with drivers apparently I wonder also if the build up to the war starting in '39 had any bearing on it also? ie, a thought for a more austere type to get into service quicker? The mid-late 30s certainly saw a lot of very fast development of aerodynamics, engineering designs and materials. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It was decided that the aerodynamic styling was wasted at tube train speeds and in the confines of the tunnels, where the train effectively becomes a piston in a cylinder. I have a book at home (at work right now) that deals with the 1935 and 1938 stocks in detail: The 1938 Tube Stock (Piers Connor, 1989), Capital Transport. If you are really interested this is worth trying to find. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted February 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2012 The rebuilt '35 stock lasted quite some time along with the rest of the '38 stock. A recently listed (but undated) slide was up for sale on a well known auction site. http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3a706f7b20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 The rebuilt '35 stock lasted quite some time along with the rest of the '38 stock. A recently listed (but undated) slide was up for sale on a well known auction site. http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3a706f7b20 But the item on ebay is a slide of DM 10306, which was not part of the 1935 experimental stock. 10306 wasn't delivered until September 1940 and didn't go into service until 1944. It was modified in 1949 as part of a design study for proposed 1952 Tube stock with the window and door glass being entended above the cantrail line. The '52 stock plan didn't go ahead, but the curved door glass idea was finally used in the '67 Victorial Line stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Metr0Land Posted February 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 21, 2012 Ah ok, I thought it was one of the rebuilt 35's Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 21, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2012 The 1935 prototype tube stock was rebuilt as noted above into 1938 stock configuration after some years with too much of the time out of service due to faults. Useful lessons were learned which were applied to the design and build of the 1938 tube stock and carried forward to the 1949 (1938 add-on), 1956, 1959 and 1962 tube stocks. If nothing else that showed the fundamental design was extremely sound even if some of the detail was not. The streamlined ends meant the trains were longer than the Standard stock (1923 - 1931 builds) with clerestory roof lines and the control compartments occupying the front part of each driving motor car. As such the trains were slightly over-length in some platforms which caused operational difficulties. The skirt-level fairings were done away with but the sleek roof profiles were more or less incorporated into the 1938 stock and its 1949 add-on order. Construction of that was interrupted but not completely ceased due to WW2. Car 10306 was mentioned above specifically. This was one of two built (or converted?) to test different options. This car had the window glazing extended up into the curved section of the doors to allow standing passengers better visibility of the stations. The fundamentals of this design were incorporated much later on the 1967 tube stock and later builds. The other modified car was trailer 012298 which has stand-back areas beside the double doorways and bum-perches fitted in place of two fixed seats. In order, ostensibly, to preserve the modesty of the travelling public (this was the 1940s, remember) the square windows in those areas were replaced with oval ones giving reduced visibility. The objective was to test passenger circulation inside the cars with this layout which offered eight fewer seats but gained at least twice the number of standing spaces. Both modified cars ran thus until their routine withdrawal as part of the retirement of 1938 stock from the Northern Line where they spent their lives. I had the good fortune to witness both cars simultaneously as the trains they were formed in passed at the old Angel island platform. While I saw 10306 several times and travelled in it once this was the only time I ever saw 012298. The stand-back area by the doors was also incorporated but to a much lesser extent, in the 1967 tube stock and to a slightly greater extent in the 1973 tube stock upon which significant amounts of air passenger's luggage were expected to be carried. More recent types also have wide stand-back areas also including bum-perches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 No, the rebuild on the Streamlined DMs turned them into Trailer Cars. They became 012477 to 012494. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natalie Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 An interesting topic indeed. Firstly my apologies to Kelly as it was my comment to her about the streamlined units not being used in passenger service that was the basis of her post- and thanks to Keith for his correcting post. This caused me to take a look at my books- '1938 Tube Stock' Piers Connor and 'Underground no 10- 1935 Experimental Tube Stock' Brian Hardy & Piers Connor and make some notes which I hope are of interest. Essentially Keith has posted the salient points. The 1935 stock consisted of twelve 2-car units numbered 10000-11 and 11000-11. The first nine units (10000-8 and 11000-08) are those that received the streamline (sometimes also called 'bull nose') fronts with the remaining vehicles being flat fronted. The streamline units were delivered between October 1936 and June 1937 with the flat fronts arriving between 7th August 1937 and 22nd October 1937. A period of testing was carried out and even at this early date the motormen were not keen on the streamlined units- said to be because of the central driving position and the fact that they couldn't drive standing up either (used to relieve pressure areas on their derrières). These units are said to be the prototypes for the 1938 stock and if I read the text correctly the decision to build those units as flat fronted was soon made- it seems that some of the LT engineers and management were not keen on them either and soon lost any enthusiasm that they had for them. One reason I can recall is that when a streamlined unit was coupled in more than a 2-car set with similar units the visual effect of the intermediate cabs was not desirable. The first timetabled passenger path was introduced on 8/4/37, a second followed on 24/1/38, a third on 2/8/38 with a fourth described as "when trains had been in service for some time." Trains were booked to be run on the Piccadilly line (I don't have details of the exact trains booked as I have not perused any of the Piccadilly Line WTTs of the time) in 6 car formations (ie 3x 2-car units) with 4-cars in off peaks. The books also state that is was highly unusual to have all four workings produce 1935 at once- one reason being that at one location (Northfields IIRC) there was no fitter trained to deal with these units which meant any problems in service had to be dealt with at the main depot instead. Passenger use continued until Autumn 1940 where all the units were taken out of service and stored in the open at Cockfosters Depot. There they stayed for the duration of WW2. The three flat fronted units were taken out of store in the middle of 1950 and converted for use as (initially) 2-car units on Central Line shuttles between Loughton-Epping and Hainault-Woodford. In May 1954 one of the units was sent back to the Piccadilly for use on the Holborn-Aldwych shuttle until 1957. With the electrification of the Epping-Ongar branch in 1957 two of the flat fronted units (nos 9 & 10) were required to operate the Ongar shuttle being increased to 3-cars with the addition of (IIRC) a standard stock trailer. The remaining unit - no 11- continued as a test train- before returning to passenger use. The streamlined units had also been stored during WW2 and saw very little attention. A notable exception in early 1942 was 10004 and 11004 which had modifications made to its front windows and front door to allow a motorman to be able to drive whilst standing up. This was rejected by the motormen and the set never ran in service in this form. The units came out of storage during 1950 onwards and had their streamlined cabs removed and the vehicles were converted into trailers 012477- 012494 between Feb and Sept 1951, entering service on the Northern Line in 1938/49 stock between Feb 1951 and October 1952. They were distinctive in that they retained their three windows in the end bays (as opposed to four windows in 1938 stock). In this form they lasted until 1972/3 with ten then being transferred to the Bakerloo during 1974, the last survivor being withdrawn in 1976. Returning to the three flat fronted units, these were taken out of passenger service on 7/12/66 and stored. 10009/10 and 11009/10 were sent for scrap in May 1969, whilst the final unit 100011+11011 was fitted in May 1969 with central articulated bogies as past of the Articulated Trains trail. This involved new bogies all round and the inner ends of the cars were shortened. After the trails were over in 1972, the unit ended up at Acton Works were it was used as the Works shunter- being useful as it tended not to get gapped. It became L14 in May 1972 and was withdrawn in Feb 1974 and subsequently scrapped. In addition to the 1935 streamlined units there was another car that came just before that was converted as part of the same 'High Speed Tube Train' project. This involved 1923 MCW Control Trailer no 1755 which was fitted with a very similar streamline cab in January 1933. It appears to have worked trials on one night only (30th April/ 1st May 1933) when it was trialled on the Piccadilly between Hammersmith and Finsbury Park. 1755 reverted to standard form as 5245 in July 1933 then to a trailer 75245 in January 199. Following withdrawal in 1956 it entered the service fleet and was converted to a Rail Grinding Car no RG803. Apologies for going on at length but I hope that the above has been of some interest. It certainly has been for me as it has enabled me to learn some more about these units and correct an incorrect view that I had. T Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 The MCW Control Trailer 1755 was the design prototype for the Streamline Driving Motors. There was also a plan at one stage to reinforce the 6 Car Streamline units up to 7 Cars with the addition of a Trailer car. 3 Trailers, 012412 to 012414, were ordered, without compressors, for that purpose. The formation of each 7 car set would then have been DM-T-DM + DM-DM + DM-DM. It's interesting to speculate, given the way that the formations of the 38 Stock kept changing, whether they would ever have turned into the more conventional 7 Car Formation of DM-NDM-T-DM + DM-T-DM after September 1945. Unlikely I know given that the drivers didn't like the driving position. This would have created 4 of the streamlined 7 car sets, but with marginally more capacity per formation, with the unused pair of Streamlined DMs as spare in case of failures. Left as a 7 Car set with 6 out of 7 cars motored they would have been more highly powered than the eventual 38 Stock 7 Car sets, having a DM instead of a Trailer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Natalie - thank you for taking the trouble to post this valuable information. The 1935 Experimental Stock is a real missing link in the evolution of the London Underground. It is a pity no movie footage or colour photos of it have been unearthed. Surely there must be some out there? London Transport must have heralded their innovation at some point with a great fanfare? Maybe the Pathe news site have something hidden away.? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernboy Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Love the images in that book, they'd make some great avatars for some of us. They are out of copyright I guess? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Posted February 24, 2012 Author Share Posted February 24, 2012 I probably should not have posted the link to the book as it swerves way off topic, it belongs mostly to the overground - I could make a new post about it in "Modelling Musings and Miscellany", if there is the interest? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Natalie - thank you for taking the trouble to post this valuable information. The 1935 Experimental Stock is a real missing link in the evolution of the London Underground. It is a pity no movie footage or colour photos of it have been unearthed. Surely there must be some out there? London Transport must have heralded their innovation at some point with a great fanfare? Maybe the Pathe news site have something hidden away.? Not sure that I'd call it a "missing link" as the concept became the 38 Stock, and the Flat fronted sets were part of the same design study. The Streamline design is fully documented in several books. There may be cine film footage somewhere, but I would be surprised if any was found in colour as most newsreel footage from that era seemed to have been shot on monochrome stock. If there was any footage shot in colour or any colour photos they would probably have been taken by private individuals as I'd have thought that any in public collections would have emerged by now. By the way, you have a great collection of LT posters on you web site. It almost looks like you raided the LT Museum's collection for them. Where did you get them? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 24, 2012 I feel the "missing link" in terms of 1935 experimental tube stock is that none has been kept in its original condition and none of the converted cars now survive either. As well, and no doubt due to the relative cost of photography at the time coupled with the amount of above-ground mileage these trains actually ran very few images exist at all. Of the Standard stock which pre-dates it several cars survive in one form or another and - thanks to the venerable fleet which went to the Isle of Wight - it may yet be possible to put back together a representative and working unit. A working unit of 1938 stock and numerous other cars survive which come closest to representing the 1935 cars. By contrast the next really big step forward in tube car design and technology which was ushered in with the 1992 Central Line stock is represented by a prototype car from the "green" train of experimental stock which preceded it and which ran on the Jubilee Line for some years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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