Possible layout inspiration

[kf4yyd]

After some study it would seem to me that when one wants advice on small layouts, exhibition type if you will, that the modelers of the UK take the crown. The hobby press here on my side of the pond seem to only want to concentrate on huge ungodly layouts so I thought I might ask here.

 

In my town we have an industrial park that to me would make a great model as it has a large variety of businesses that are rail served. It's also older and while it has some modern type buildings it has several brick structures so that era could be varied widely. Some of these businesses include: a small brewery, a small distillery, a wooden truss mfg, and a bulk chemical tank farm, there is even a small yard available.

 

I have tried to draw up a plan following the general track arrangement but I just don't seem to have the knack of compression while keeping the feel of the place. I don't want a big layout, just a small one that you could operate for a short time after work to relieve some stress. I believe with just some tweaks that I could even have this set to run UK outline trains.

 

Anyway here is a link to a map of the area if anyone would like to see it. Currently the site is serviced by CSX but it used to be worked by the RF&P (Richmond Fredericksburg & Potomac) Sorry for the wide angle but if you zoom in you can see the track work.

 

http://maps.google.c...F-8&sa=N&tab=wl

 

Tom, a Southern Region fan.

[Gordon A]

Hi Tom,

 

Am I right in thinking that I should be looking at Fredericksburgh VA USA?

If so can you give me a lock on such as a street name adjacent to the track?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[kf4yyd]

Hi Gordon,

 

Wow I have no idea where that map came from...... Let me try that again. This address should get you where I was looking:

 

Bowman Co

11913 Main Street, Fredericksburg, VA

Now I feel like a moron.

Tom

[steinjr]

What kind of space (and shape for your space) do you have available, and what scale do you want to model in?

 

Smile,

Stein

[kf4yyd]

What kind of space (and shape for your space) do you have available, and what scale do you want to model in?

 

Smile,

Stein

Well I could fit a length of up to 20' by about 8' but that space is devoted to my future Southern region layout. I am planing to build Cannons Cross as shown in the 2010. BRM. This one I want to be small and portable like an exibition layout. I thought this site could be used, but if not I can always fall back to my original plan of Holywell station.

 

[Gordon A]

Hi Tom,

Your site is relatively moden and spacious compared to some British industrial lines.

I have included a couple of links to the Vinegar Branch, Worcester.

http://www.miac.org.uk/vinegar.htm

http://www.miac.org.uk/vinegarmap.htm

If I have some time I will look up Great Western Journal 54 which has an article on the aforementioned branch.

It may be worth a look at the Manchester Ship Canal Railway, which not only served the docks, but also I believe other industries in the area.

Hopefully some of the other RM Webbers will come up with some other ideas.

have you dipped into the Standard Gauge UK Industrial forum on RM Web?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[steinjr]

Well I could fit a length of up to 20' by about 8' but that space is devoted to my future Southern region layout. I am planing to build Cannons Cross as shown in the 2010. BRM. This one I want to be small and portable like an exibition layout. I thought this site could be used, but if not I can always fall back to my original plan of Holywell station.

 

Maybe my questions were not clear enough.

 

1) What scale do you want to model in? It makes a significant difference whether you want N scale (1:160) or H0 scale (1:87.1). Since you seemingly want modern times (i.e. larger cars) and a small layout, N scale makes a lot more sense than H0 scale.

 

2) How much space do you want/intend to spend on a small exhibition layout? I am just arbitrarily going to define a small exhibition layout as two sections, each 4 feet long and 18" deep - which ought to fit into a modest sized car (not that American cars always are modest sized :-)

 

Giving the area a quick glimpse with http://www.bing.com/maps , the two most immediately obvious modelgenic subscenes as a small switching layout are:

 

1) Looking east across Main Street with Capital Lane going off into the backdrop, with the open air unloading area in front, then the small three track yard with runaround, then background industries on the east side of Main Street: http://binged.it/woELTw

 

2) Looking NE from Josepth Mills Drive towards Capital Lane (http://binged.it/zK6NEO) with the Industry in the corner between Joseph Mills Drive and Main Street on the left, then a track disappearing off to the left "behind" that industry, then a crossing, then two/three tracks to the right for backdrop industries in front of Main Street and across Dill Smith Drive. The track going off to the industry at the end of Joseph Mills Drive might just curve off the front of the module.

 

Here is a rough proposal in N scale, front of layout at bottom, backdrop at top :

 

Turnouts are Peco code 55 mediums, engine is a GP40-2, cars are 60 foot box cars and tank cars, 89' flatcars/centerbeams

 

Umm - couple of second thoughts:

 

- kick Joseph Mills drive rightwards by 6" or so - making the front right corner industry (partial) building smaller, and gives some space for a parking lot etc for the two non-railserved industries to the left of Joseph Mills Road.

 

Maybe also kick the industry building at the upper left all the way to the left edge, and put the open air unloading area to the right of the building instead. dropping the industry spot for tank cars in the far rear upper left - it would make the industry look more plausible when we can't see how short it is - when it appears to be just part of a building.

 

Or something. This are just rough proposal to kick off some discussion.

 

Smile,

Stein

[Gordon A]

As an example of what you can fit into 8ft by 2ft in 4mm scale.

Trains arrive from top left. Top right exit is closed to traffic (at the moment.)

The bottom left line leads to a quay side (yet to be built).

Newbridge Sidings under construction

Track plan. The single slip has since been replaced by a double slip.

Framed presentation.

There is one fiddle area to the left off scene.

Although all the locos shown are BR I am in the process of building a number of industrial locos for the layout.

High level Armstrong Whitworth o-4-0

High Level Battery Loco built by Paul Bannerman.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[steinjr]

4mm scale is 00, right? That works just fine with British rolling stock (especially older British rolling stock), since you have small engines and short cars. But for an American layout set in the 1970s or later, cars get pretty big in H0 scale (since there isn't that much available for American roads in 00 scale) - an 89 foot car is about a foot long, and 60-foot cars are about 8.2" long.

 

You certainly can fit in quite a bit of a layout in 8 feet in H0 scale too - if you design for older times - say go back to the 1950s, when 40-foot cars were the norm. I have an 15" deep and 11 foot long H0 scale layout set in the transition era in my living room. Track plan looks like this:

 

 

Plenty of room for a track plan like this.

 

But you quickly run out of space if you try to model the industry park the OP wanted to model in OO or H0 scale,

 

Smile,

Stein

[Gordon A]

Nice track plan Stein.

You are right in suggesting 8 feet as a small exhibition layout. I assume you are refering to the scenic area length.

In the UK 8 feet scenic length is the upper end of small layouts. Four feet or less are not unknown.

 

Tom needs to decide:

a) How much linear space he is prepared to make available for his compact layout, also the width.

B) The ratio of scenic area to off scene storage space (If any is included).

c) What scale gauge and location.

 

The abov three sets of parameters will give the limitations of your three dimensional canvas on which to create a picture.

 

With the scale and gauge parameters there will be an indication as to what length points and so how many you can accomodate in the scenic area.

 

8 feet equates to 696 scale feet, which is 7.8 - 89 foot boxcars or 11.6 - 60 foot boxcars.

 

So space and scale dictates all.

 

I would also add learn to build your own track, dont have your track layouts dictated by what the manufacturers produce.

It is not that difficult.

 

I model in 4mm(P4) due to availability of stock, industrial locos, and affordability.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[kf4yyd]

Hi Tom,

Your site is relatively moden and spacious compared to some British industrial lines.

I have included a couple of links to the Vinegar Branch, Worcester.

http://www.miac.org.uk/vinegar.htm

http://www.miac.org.uk/vinegarmap.htm

If I have some time I will look up Great Western Journal 54 which has an article on the aforementioned branch.

It may be worth a look at the Manchester Ship Canal Railway, which not only served the docks, but also I believe other industries in the area.

Hopefully some of the other RM Webbers will come up with some other ideas.

have you dipped into the Standard Gauge UK Industrial forum on RM Web?

 

Gordon A

Bristol

 

Gordon, Thanks for that link on the vinegar works, I always find those old industrial sites interesting. I'll be sure to look up the Manchester Ship Canal and I haven't yet looked into the industrial forum but will .

 

Tom

[Arthur]

Gordon is right about the Manchester Ship Canal Railway in that it not only served the docks at Salford (30 miles inland) but also the large adjacent industrial estate at Trafford Park. It was enormous, one of the largest industrial systems in the U.K. and although the track in the industrial estate was owned by the Trafford Park Company it was worked by Ship Canal locomotives. It was probably the most like a U.S. system of any other in the U.K. Tightly packed industries of all sizes, from oil refineries and steelworks down, tight curves and crossings, and street running. The genesis of the estate was the building by an American, George Westinghouse, of a large heavy electrical engineering factory. He built a few rows of terraced houses for the workers on a grid pattern and, following US practice, named the streets, first, second, third avenue etc. The system served pretty much the entire length of the canal though it was not all interconnected and comprised three or four sections.

[kf4yyd]

Maybe my questions were not clear enough.

 

1) What scale do you want to model in? It makes a significant difference whether you want N scale (1:160) or H0 scale (1:87.1). Since you seemingly want modern times (i.e. larger cars) and a small layout, N scale makes a lot more sense than H0 scale.

 

2) How much space do you want/intend to spend on a small exhibition layout? I am just arbitrarily going to define a small exhibition layout as two sections, each 4 feet long and 18" deep - which ought to fit into a modest sized car (not that American cars always are modest sized :-)

 

Giving the area a quick glimpse with http://www.bing.com/maps , the two most immediately obvious modelgenic subscenes as a small switching layout are:

 

1) Looking east across Main Street with Capital Lane going off into the backdrop, with the open air unloading area in front, then the small three track yard with runaround, then background industries on the east side of Main Street: http://binged.it/woELTw

 

2) Looking NE from Josepth Mills Drive towards Capital Lane (http://binged.it/zK6NEO) with the Industry in the corner between Joseph Mills Drive and Main Street on the left, then a track disappearing off to the left "behind" that industry, then a crossing, then two/three tracks to the right for backdrop industries in front of Main Street and across Dill Smith Drive. The track going off to the industry at the end of Joseph Mills Drive might just curve off the front of the module.

 

Here is a rough proposal in N scale, front of layout at bottom, backdrop at top :

 

Turnouts are Peco code 55 mediums, engine is a GP40-2, cars are 60 foot box cars and tank cars, 89' flatcars/centerbeams

 

Umm - couple of second thoughts:

 

- kick Joseph Mills drive rightwards by 6" or so - making the front right corner industry (partial) building smaller, and gives some space for a parking lot etc for the two non-railserved industries to the left of Joseph Mills Road.

 

Maybe also kick the industry building at the upper left all the way to the left edge, and put the open air unloading area to the right of the building instead. dropping the industry spot for tank cars in the far rear upper left - it would make the industry look more plausible when we can't see how short it is - when it appears to be just part of a building.

 

Or something. This are just rough proposal to kick off some discussion.

 

Smile,

Stein

 

Hi Stein,

 

Sorry for the confusion, My perferred scale is OO, however I have more HO as it is the Scale used most here.

 

As the others have stated I was thinking about an eight foot scenic area by about 18 to 20 inches in depth. With that said I can see you are correct in thinking that N scale would be the proper size for this area. Unfortunatly for me I don't own anything in N so would have to purchase the whole lot, and that might make this disscusion a moot point.

 

The reason I was interested in this site is that it is local so research is litterly right at my finger tips something that my interest in the Southern Region is not. I wish I had the ability to take that scene as you have and translate it into possible model. Your plan above really captures the look of the front part of the Bowman Center, my attempts did not come out so cleanly as I was trying to cram in too much.

 

I was surprised that the industry at the upper corner of Main and Joseph Mills is not rail served. In reality this is The Roof Center, they make and supply the local builders with roofing supplies. I thought they had a loading dock at the back of the building but your map shows otherwise. My trips to the area seem to have me always at the small brewery so maybe I should pay more attention.

 

Thanks,

Tom

[kf4yyd]

As an example of what you can fit into 8ft by 2ft in 4mm scale.

Gordon A

Bristol

 

Very nice work Gordon.

 

Tom

[kf4yyd]

Tom needs to decide:

a) How much linear space he is prepared to make available for his compact layout, also the width.

B) The ratio of scenic area to off scene storage space (If any is included).

c) What scale gauge and location.

 

The abov three sets of parameters will give the limitations of your three dimensional canvas on which to create a picture.

 

With the scale and gauge parameters there will be an indication as to what length points and so how many you can accomodate in the scenic area.

 

8 feet equates to 696 scale feet, which is 7.8 - 89 foot boxcars or 11.6 - 60 foot boxcars.

 

So space and scale dictates all.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

 

You are right Gordon.... My problem is I can't see a scale picture when I'm looking at reality. I think Stein is right in saying that this model would have to be N scale and I don't know if I want to try my hand at such small items. On the bright side I can still enjoy watching them switch out the cars in real time so all is not lost.

 

Tom

[Gordon A]

Tom,

 

I agree the difficulty is selecting the slice of the greater picture to model.

If you decide on the size of your scenic area, then spend sometime in the area on the ground and try and find your favourite view point for what ever reason. Fit one into the other.

Every thing else that happens outside of your actual view point takes place off scene in fiddle yards using cassettes, sector plates or point work.

 

Have fun!

 

Gordon A

Bristol

 

 

[steinjr]

 

Sorry for the confusion, My perferred scale is OO, however I have more HO as it is the Scale used most here.

 

As the others have stated I was thinking about an eight foot scenic area by about 18 to 20 inches in depth. With that said I can see you are correct in thinking that N scale would be the proper size for this area. Unfortunatly for me I don't own anything in N so would have to purchase the whole lot, and that might make this disscusion a moot point.

 

 

There is nothing that says you cannot model smaller slice of the park in H0 scale (or OO scale). You just need to decide what elements of the park you want to model.

 

One thing you can see from the layout pics Gordon posted (and my track plan) is that it certainly is very possible to have a switching layout in H0 scale (or OO scale) in 8 feet of length. Especially if you can add e.g. a removable 2 foot extension off the end of the visible scene for fiddling (or just to make a switching lead longer).

 

Heck - you can go a lot smaller than 8 feet in length too. You can find literally hundreds of Micro layouts (smaller than 4 square feet) on Carl Arendt's web site http://www.carendt.com

 

And if you go up to e.g. six feet of length, you can do a nice little switching layout without needing a removable lead. Here is e.g. a simple track plan I drew up for a 15" x 6 foot layout for someone a while back:

 

 

 

Here are some more small track plans - 3 feet visible layout, 4 1/2 foot total length:

 

There is no particular problem in making small track plans for H0 scale switching (shunting).

 

What is hard to realistically compress a real place into a small track in H0 scale. Especially if you insist on using modern cars etc. Then you have to model a small slice of the real world.

 

If you want to do H0 scale (or OO scale), I would suggest either backdating to an earlier era (so you can use smaller cars), or not try to include so much of the industry park. Here is e.g. a start on a 2x8 foot switching layout in H0 scale with a 2 foot removable lead, roughly based on the same area, but looking the other way across main street:

 

 

Locomotive is an SW7 (i.e. a small switcher), cars shown are 40-foot cars. Lengths of tracks etc (and especially the length of the switching lead at left, has been made to fit a certain number of cars. When designing small switching layouts, a length long enough to fit 3/4s of a car is wasted space that you most likely could have used better elsewhere.

 

Anyways - I am not saying that you cannot model aspects of this industry park in H0 (or OO scale). But the larger scale you go, the more you need to be conscious of not being able to model things to scale - om compromising on what to include and what to drop.

 

 

 

I was surprised that the industry at the upper corner of Main and Joseph Mills is not rail served. In reality this is The Roof Center, they make and supply the local builders with roofing supplies. I thought they had a loading dock at the back of the building but your map shows otherwise. My trips to the area seem to have me always at the small brewery so maybe I should pay more attention.

 

 

Well, the overhead photos does not show a loading dock - but they might be unloading a car with a forklift at the gravel patch at the corner of the building (as shown in my last plan above).

 

Smile,

Stein

[kf4yyd]

Hi Stein,

 

I think my problem lies in the fact that I was looking at a real location and not a hypothetical what if place. In looking through some of the UK magazines I am able to get my hands on it seems that a lot of the exhibition style layouts are based on real locations. Of course I may be wrong about that but I imagine as was posted earlier that places in the UK are not as spread out as to what I am able to view.

 

I could squeeze this down into the size I want but then I'm not sure it would be able to be recognized as to its location. Then again I doubt that many people other than those of us eccentric types who follow trains around would go there anyway. It's worth keeping the idea in a notebook, and possibly coming back too it in the future and I may start to reseach the history of the site just to see what I can find.

 

Tom

[steinjr]

I think your core problem is deciding how much you need to include to create a recognizable scene, and how much compression (if any) to include.

 

A quick calculation - there is about 1250 feet from the south end of the building south of Joseph Mills Drive to the end of track along Main Street.

1250 foot in 1:1 scale is about 14 1/3 foot in H0 scale, about 8 foot in N scale. If you want to model this entire space in H0 scale without compression, you need to use about 14 feet (plus some extra length for a switching lead to the south of Joseph Mills Drive).

 

If you cannot (or will not) use 14-17 feet of lenght for a layout (including 3 foot lead), then you either have to compress or pick a smaller section to model. If you try to only model the 500 or so feet from Joseph Mills Drive to the end of the yard, you can do that in about 6 feet in H0 scale, leaving a couple of feet for a lead and still stay within 8 feet.

 

Or you could model the 400 feet or so North/South between Bourbon Street and Capital lane :

 

 

Cars shown are 60-foot tank cars, loco is a GP40-2. Layout is designed to allow the movement of cuts of 3 cars.

 

Smile,

Stein

[kf4yyd]

I think your core problem is deciding how much you need to include to create a recognizable scene, and how much compression (if any) to include. A quick calculation - there is about 1250 feet from the south end of the building south of Joseph Mills Drive to the end of track along Main Street. 1250 foot in 1:1 scale is about 14 1/3 foot in H0 scale, about 8 foot in N scale. If you want to model this entire space in H0 scale without compression, you need to use about 14 feet (plus some extra length for a switching lead to the south of Joseph Mills Drive). If you cannot (or will not) use 14-17 feet of lenght for a layout (including 3 foot lead), then you either have to compress or pick a smaller section to model. If you try to only model the 500 or so feet from Joseph Mills Drive to the end of the yard, you can do that in about 6 feet in H0 scale, leaving a couple of feet for a lead and still stay within 8 feet. Or you could model the 400 feet or so North/South between Bourbon Street and Capital lane : Cars shown are 60-foot tank cars, loco is a GP40-2. Layout is designed to allow the movement of cuts of 3 cars. Smile, Stein

 

Doing a little research last night and I found that this business/industrial park has been around since the 1930's. I think that might explain part of my liking for the setting, as the older brick structures certainly look better than the modern ones. I don't know how long it has been rail served but back dating doesn't look to be a problem.

 

As this is my first serious project I was wanting to try and keep things somewhat simple. Not so simple as just a length of track and maybe a siding but not so complex as to make me want to give up in frustration. I was also looking to make it realistic or at least plausible enough so that I can at least assure anyone who doubts, it is based on fact. I have no problem with going larger than 8 feet I was just thinking about something that wouldn't take forever to complete but still giving me enough space to try and see how well I can detail.

 

Taking you first design and increasing it to about 16 feet would make a nice layout but would it be too ambitious? Questioning my self gets to be a pain.

 

Tom

[craig]

Hi Everyone

I was directed to this thread by another member ... I was contemplating the same Idea ..HO scale 8'x2' with possible fiddle yard but to be honest i would prefer not to have one I dont have the room for it ....I was at the Scottish model rail show last weekend, where there were a few American layouts that looked fantastic. one was less than 7' x 14" and its rekindled my love for this hobby (though I've not done anything yet).. I was going to purchase the shorter Box cars to give me more room and I have a few Points and lengths flexitrack 3 pairs of Long 3 pairs of Short a Short Y point 1 £3-way Asymmetric and 1 double slip.. i bought that stuff more than 2 years now and still have not done anything. I dont have a clue where to start, so I am looking at your thread with interest in the hope of getting some ideas.

 

Cheers Craig

[steinjr]

As this is my first serious project I was wanting to try and keep things somewhat simple. Not so simple as just a length of track and maybe a siding but not so complex as to make me want to give up in frustration. I was also looking to make it realistic or at least plausible enough so that I can at least assure anyone who doubts, it is based on fact.

 

Well, only you can decide what your ambition level should be, but I would suggest smaller rather than larger, especially of you are contemplating building something you can take along to exhibitions and meets.

 

The British exhibition layouts you admire are mostly not great because they are big - they are great because they are focused. Because they are wonderfully scenicked and detailed. Because they create an illusion of looking into a small part of a bigger world.

 

Smile,

Stein

[steinjr]

Hi Everyone

I was directed to this thread by another member ... I was contemplating the same Idea ..HO scale 8'x2' with possible fiddle yard but to be honest i would prefer not to have one I dont have the room for it ....I was at the Scottish model rail show last weekend, where there were a few American layouts that looked fantastic. one was less than 7' x 14" and its rekindled my love for this hobby (though I've not done anything yet).. I was going to purchase the shorter Box cars to give me more room and I have a few Points and lengths flexitrack 3 pairs of Long 3 pairs of Short a Short Y point 1 £3-way Asymmetric and 1 double slip.. i bought that stuff more than 2 years now and still have not done anything. I dont have a clue where to start, so I am looking at your thread with interest in the hope of getting some ideas.

 

 

Well, for whatever it might be worth, here is a link to a web page of mine with a bunch of small track plans - several American inspired 2x8 plans there: http://home.online.no/~steinjr/trains/modelling/

 

If you find any that gives you ideas for your own track plan, feel free to copy, spindle and/or mutilate plans to hearts desire :-)

 

Smile,

Stein

[craig]

Well, for whatever it might be worth, here is a link to a web page of mine with a bunch of small track plans - several American inspired 2x8 plans there: http://home.online.n...ains/modelling/

 

If you find any that gives you ideas for your own track plan, feel free to copy, spindle and/or mutilate plans to hearts desire :-)

 

Smile,

Stein

Thanks Stein .. ill look right away

[kf4yyd]

Hi Everyone

I was directed to this thread by another member ... I was contemplating the same Idea ..HO scale 8'x2' with possible fiddle yard but to be honest i would prefer not to have one I dont have the room for it ....I was at the Scottish model rail show last weekend, where there were a few American layouts that looked fantastic. one was less than 7' x 14" and its rekindled my love for this hobby (though I've not done anything yet).. I was going to purchase the shorter Box cars to give me more room and I have a few Points and lengths flexitrack 3 pairs of Long 3 pairs of Short a Short Y point 1 £3-way Asymmetric and 1 double slip.. i bought that stuff more than 2 years now and still have not done anything. I dont have a clue where to start, so I am looking at your thread with interest in the hope of getting some ideas.

 

Cheers Craig

 

Hi Craig,

 

Doubt I'm the one too draw inspiration from However this location that is being discussed is served by CSX at the present. Wonder if it should be moved into overseas prototypes? I'm trying to decide on just how big a layout I should tackle as I want to be able to finish it in a reasonable time and still be able to build it with out to much stress. In other words I want this project to have bullet proof track work so as not to take away from the scene I'm trying to convey.

 

Tom