johnp Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 I am trying to find some drawings of the carriages used by the Liverpool and Manchester Railway sued in the early days. The sort that Triang produced to go with the Rocket locomotive. So far the internet has not produced anything other than a few copies of the early Ackerman prints. Thanks, Regards, John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jol Wilkinson Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 Drawing of very early rolling stock is not easy to find. A quick look at the LNWR Society drawings list show only a couple of 4 wheel L&B coaches http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/DrawingServiceDocs/Carr%20&%20NPCS%20List.pdf The L&MR coaches may have been constructed by a contractor such as Joseph Wright and Co. If you can establish that, it may be a little bit easier to locate some drawings. Jol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted February 29, 2012 Share Posted February 29, 2012 The Early Railway Group has or had a newsletter that contained drawings of early equipment. Not sure if they are still going, but they may be worth checking with. Edited to remove faulty link. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Why not take photos and or draw the replicas at York, and Manchester MOSI. I think that they have open, semi open and closed carriages(!!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 Why not take photos and or draw the replicas at York, and Manchester MOSI. I think that they have open, semi open and closed carriages(!!) Be careful if you go in this direction. The two open carriages which 'Planet' was pulling on it's visit to Loughborough a couple of years ago were riding on what looked like BR Banana Van underframes. You can still find Triang Rocket coaches at swapmeets (often at silly prices though). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 How accurate are those replicas at York? Were the LMS actually able to locate the original drawings or were they simply a guesstimate? While they sit quite happily with the few genuinely early coaches around, the Ackerman prints show a shorter wheelbase. I have wondered if they were deliberatly 'updated' (to the 1840s!!) to improve the ride. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnp Posted March 2, 2012 Author Share Posted March 2, 2012 Couldn't find your attachment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Couldn't find your attachment No, because it isn't there. I tried to attach the link but it wouldn't have it. Now removed. Sorry to lead you astray, but look out for the Early Railway and Canal group they have a lot of interesting stuff. Mainly full size but with some modelling interest. A chap called John Boyle did a lot of drawings for their newsletter. He used to make 0 gauge kits but I don't know if he is still around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 No, because it isn't there. I tried to attach the link but it wouldn't have it. Now removed. Sorry to lead you astray, but look out for the Early Railway and Canal group they have a lot of interesting stuff. Mainly full size but with some modelling interest. A chap called John Boyle did a lot of drawings for their newsletter. He used to make 0 gauge kits but I don't know if he is still around. I think the Early Railways Group has been defunct for some years (I used to be a member). John Boyle did etches, mainly in 7mm, of early vehicles, generally of the Scottish companies. Although he is still around he isn't doing much now. He used to visit the Metro Cammel archives in the Birmingham Reference Library, and got the drawings there. Most of the early companies got their rolling stock from private builders, hence the same design of vehicle might be seen on several unconnected lines. That might be your first fruitful source of information, but I'm not sure how to access them online. Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brake Compo Posted March 3, 2012 Share Posted March 3, 2012 Isn't there some question as to the accuracy of the rolling stock depictions in Ackermann's prints? I had understood, that whilst better than many early depictions, they suffered from the artist's unfamilarity with the novel scene presented to him. The earliest reliable drawing of a carriage of which I am aware is that on a London & Birmingham first class carriage, from Simm's Public Works of Great Britain, published in 1838, which has a decent scale side and end elevation, and a plan of the underframe. This is reproduced in Ransom's excellent The Victorian Railway and How It Evolved. I could scan the drawing if you are interested - please PM me if you are. I am very interested in the early railway, and would be very interested to know of other very early scale drawings of carriages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 4, 2012 The Merseyside Model Railway Society started to make an S (? or was it 1:48, American O, my memory doesn't recall) scale model of the L&M for the 1980 celebrations, this was never completed but they (I assume) must have been able to do some drawings, althoguh I can't remember if they got to the passenger vehicle stage, I made a goods waggon (as they were spelt). A member of the team worked for Liverpool museums so maybe they would be a good start point ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted March 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 4, 2012 Perhaps this might help >> http://www.vintageca...fo.asp?Ref=2560 This is a rare survivor from 1844 but mounted on a later chassis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 There is this picture on the LNWR Society's website. http://www.lnwrs.org...s/Lnwrs815P.php You might find you have to go with a few known dimensions and work from there with the aid of pictures such as this for early stock. I once talked to Mike Sharman at a show about his locos and most of those he built without a drawing but going from, perhaps, known wheelbase, diameter of wheels and boiler height and diameter, a lot fo the other dimensions fal into place and the rest is modelled to what looks right from pictures. After all, if no drawings exist, no-one is going to prove you wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Effectively that's a picture of one of the replicas, as modelled by Tri-ang. Interestingly the near contemporary 'Der Adler' replica coaches do have a shorter wheelbase as shwon in the Ackerman prints. http://rfe.railclub.ru/pix/de/steam/Adler/Adler_bsjs2.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 After all, if no drawings exist, no-one is going to prove you wrong. That's true - at least until they're unearthed somewhere! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJS1977 Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 If you're really stuck, I could probably ask my father to scan in one of his Triang coaches to give you a side elevation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 "19th Century Railway Drawings" by Alan Prior (pub David & Charles 1983) has quite a number of drawings of early carriages, including the Chester & Birkenhead Rly and the Manchester & Leeds Rly c 1840, and carriages by Brown Marshall of Birmingham c 1850, and many others. None for the L & M though, but some of these might be suitable. Allan F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted March 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 5, 2012 There's also the old K's vintage carriage kit, you even get two different carriages in one kit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
burgundy Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 "19th Century Railway Drawings" by Alan Prior (pub David & Charles 1983) has quite a number of drawings of early carriages, including the Chester & Birkenhead Rly and the Manchester & Leeds Rly c 1840, and carriages by Brown Marshall of Birmingham c 1850, and many others. None for the L & M though, but some of these might be suitable. Allan F However improbably, Hansard might be of use. I seem to remember that there are some carriage drawings in the context of the discussions around the introduction of "Parliamentary carriages". Offhand I am afraid that I do not have a reference. Best wishes Eric Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 I don't have one to hand to confirm the actual value, but the buffer spacing on the Tri-ang coaches is not the standard dimension (5' 8½" - 23mm) Being an early prototype this might be correct?? It should be remembered that the modern replica and models of the Rocket have a shorter chimney than originally fitted to conform to the current loading gauge (Brunel had 15' 6" to play with on the GWR). I believe the steeply inclined cylinders were also modified quite early on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnp Posted March 17, 2012 Author Share Posted March 17, 2012 Thank you to everyone for your responses to my question. Sorry about the delay I have pre-occupied by things not as important as modelling but more necessary!! :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazz Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 Hi John. This is a shot in the dark. Did you ever locate the drawings for the Liverpool Manchester coaches. (My latest project is LION and coaches in 7mm) Regards, Ken Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2015 "19th Century Railway Drawings" by Alan Prior (pub David & Charles 1983) has quite a number of drawings of early carriages, including the Chester & Birkenhead Rly and the Manchester & Leeds Rly c 1840, and carriages by Brown Marshall of Birmingham c 1850, and many others. None for the L & M though, but some of these might be suitable. Allan F The Manchester & Leeds coach on page 13 looks almost identical to the Triang coach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium corneliuslundie Posted February 21, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 21, 2015 Not sure if they go back early enough but the Metropolitan C&W Co drawings are now with the HMRS though not all catalogued yet. Last time I enquired of Birmingham Library their set was inaccessible following the move to a new building but they may be available again now. Also within the HMRS there was a series of articles on very early goods wagons in the HMRS Journal, some at least in 2013. The author is R G Davidson. It seems to have stopped but there may be more to come. Jonathan David. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMS2968 Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Michael R Bailey and John P Glithero in 'The Engineering and History of Rocket (NRM, 2000 ISBN 1 900747 18 9) has, not surprisingly, only the attached to say on L&MR coaches, but it might assist. Coaches.doc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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