Jump to content

Liverpool and Manchester Railway Carriages


Recommended Posts

I am trying to find some drawings of the carriages used by the Liverpool and Manchester Railway sued in the early days. The sort that Triang produced to go with the Rocket locomotive.

 

So far the internet has not produced anything other than a few copies of the early Ackerman prints.

 

Thanks,

 

Regards,

 

John

Link to post
Share on other sites

Drawing of very early rolling stock is not easy to find. A quick look at the LNWR Society drawings list show only a couple of 4 wheel L&B coaches

 

http://www.lnwrs.org.uk/DrawingServiceDocs/Carr%20&%20NPCS%20List.pdf

 

The L&MR coaches may have been constructed by a contractor such as Joseph Wright and Co. If you can establish that, it may be a little bit easier to locate some drawings.

 

Jol

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not take photos and or draw the replicas at York, and Manchester MOSI. I think that they have open, semi open and closed carriages(!!)

Be careful if you go in this direction. The two open carriages which 'Planet' was pulling on it's visit to Loughborough a couple of years ago were riding on what looked like BR Banana Van underframes.

 

You can still find Triang Rocket coaches at swapmeets (often at silly prices though).

Link to post
Share on other sites

How accurate are those replicas at York? Were the LMS actually able to locate the original drawings or were they simply a guesstimate? While they sit quite happily with the few genuinely early coaches around, the Ackerman prints show a shorter wheelbase. I have wondered if they were deliberatly 'updated' (to the 1840s!!) to improve the ride.

Edited by BernardTPM
Link to post
Share on other sites

Couldn't find your attachment

 

No, because it isn't there. I tried to attach the link but it wouldn't have it. Now removed. Sorry to lead you astray, but look out for the Early Railway and Canal group they have a lot of interesting stuff. Mainly full size but with some modelling interest. A chap called John Boyle did a lot of drawings for their newsletter. He used to make 0 gauge kits but I don't know if he is still around.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, because it isn't there. I tried to attach the link but it wouldn't have it. Now removed. Sorry to lead you astray, but look out for the Early Railway and Canal group they have a lot of interesting stuff. Mainly full size but with some modelling interest. A chap called John Boyle did a lot of drawings for their newsletter. He used to make 0 gauge kits but I don't know if he is still around.

 

I think the Early Railways Group has been defunct for some years (I used to be a member). John Boyle did etches, mainly in 7mm, of early vehicles, generally of the Scottish companies. Although he is still around he isn't doing much now. He used to visit the Metro Cammel archives in the Birmingham Reference Library, and got the drawings there. Most of the early companies got their rolling stock from private builders, hence the same design of vehicle might be seen on several unconnected lines. That might be your first fruitful source of information, but I'm not sure how to access them online.

 

Allan F

Link to post
Share on other sites

Isn't there some question as to the accuracy of the rolling stock depictions in Ackermann's prints? I had understood, that whilst better than many early depictions, they suffered from the artist's unfamilarity with the novel scene presented to him.

 

The earliest reliable drawing of a carriage of which I am aware is that on a London & Birmingham first class carriage, from Simm's Public Works of Great Britain, published in 1838, which has a decent scale side and end elevation, and a plan of the underframe. This is reproduced in Ransom's excellent The Victorian Railway and How It Evolved. I could scan the drawing if you are interested - please PM me if you are.

 

I am very interested in the early railway, and would be very interested to know of other very early scale drawings of carriages.

Edited by Brake Compo
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • RMweb Gold

The Merseyside Model Railway Society started to make an S (? or was it 1:48, American O, my memory doesn't recall) scale model of the L&M for the 1980 celebrations, this was never completed but they (I assume) must have been able to do some drawings, althoguh I can't remember if they got to the passenger vehicle stage, I made a goods waggon (as they were spelt).

 

A member of the team worked for Liverpool museums so maybe they would be a good start point ?

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Natalie Graham

There is this picture on the LNWR Society's website. http://www.lnwrs.org...s/Lnwrs815P.php

 

You might find you have to go with a few known dimensions and work from there with the aid of pictures such as this for early stock. I once talked to Mike Sharman at a show about his locos and most of those he built without a drawing but going from, perhaps, known wheelbase, diameter of wheels and boiler height and diameter, a lot fo the other dimensions fal into place and the rest is modelled to what looks right from pictures. After all, if no drawings exist, no-one is going to prove you wrong. ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

"19th Century Railway Drawings" by Alan Prior (pub David & Charles 1983) has quite a number of drawings of early carriages, including the Chester & Birkenhead Rly and the Manchester & Leeds Rly c 1840, and carriages by Brown Marshall of Birmingham c 1850, and many others. None for the L & M though, but some of these might be suitable.

 

Allan F

Link to post
Share on other sites

"19th Century Railway Drawings" by Alan Prior (pub David & Charles 1983) has quite a number of drawings of early carriages, including the Chester & Birkenhead Rly and the Manchester & Leeds Rly c 1840, and carriages by Brown Marshall of Birmingham c 1850, and many others. None for the L & M though, but some of these might be suitable.

 

Allan F

However improbably, Hansard might be of use. I seem to remember that there are some carriage drawings in the context of the discussions around the introduction of "Parliamentary carriages". Offhand I am afraid that I do not have a reference.

Best wishes

Eric

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have one to hand to confirm the actual value, but the buffer spacing on the Tri-ang coaches is not the standard dimension (5' 8½" - 23mm) Being an early prototype this might be correct??

 

It should be remembered that the modern replica and models of the Rocket have a shorter chimney than originally fitted to conform to the current loading gauge (Brunel had 15' 6" to play with on the GWR). I believe the steeply inclined cylinders were also modified quite early on.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 years later...

Hi John. This is a shot in the dark.  Did you ever locate the drawings for the Liverpool Manchester coaches. (My latest project is LION and coaches in 7mm)  Regards, Ken

Link to post
Share on other sites

"19th Century Railway Drawings" by Alan Prior (pub David & Charles 1983) has quite a number of drawings of early carriages, including the Chester & Birkenhead Rly and the Manchester & Leeds Rly c 1840, and carriages by Brown Marshall of Birmingham c 1850, and many others. None for the L & M though, but some of these might be suitable.

 

Allan F

The Manchester & Leeds coach on page 13 looks almost identical to the Triang coach.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure if they go back early enough but the Metropolitan C&W Co drawings are now with the HMRS though not all catalogued yet. Last time I enquired of Birmingham Library their set was inaccessible following the move to a new building but they may be available again now.

 

Also within the HMRS there was a series of articles on very early goods wagons in the HMRS Journal, some at least in 2013. The author is R G Davidson. It seems to have stopped but there may be more to come.

 

Jonathan David.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.