1980s West Country Train Formations

[barneyman]

Hi,

 

I did a lot of spotting in the 80's around Exeter, but didnt note typical coach formations just loco numbers !!

 

Was anyone more sensible than me and have any notes that could help or point me in the right direction.

 

Ive seen a couple of articles in Model Rail that have given me a few ideas.

 

Any years in the 80s would be good but if possible 1985 - 1990

 

Thanks !!!

 

 

David

[winterbournecm]

Hi

 

The west country loco hauled services were largely as follows in the mid eighties:

 

Paddington services:

These tended to be air conditioned mk 2D/E/F rakes with a BG and Mk1 buffet coach. They were virtually a HST rake with the SOs at the Country end, and FO at the front. The BG could be at either end. These were around 9 -10 coaches in length. Mainly blue/grey though inter-city livery was introduced from 1986/7

 

Waterloo service:

These were mainly Mk2 A or B rakes with 1/2 brakes - running as 9 coach trains. From 1986 onwards NSE livery crept in.

 

Cross-country services:

These were a mish-mash of coaches with mainly air conditioned mk 2D/E/F coaches, though any Mk2 or Mk1 dual braked vehicle could appear. The formations were difficult to explain. The Pnz - Liverpool tended to be (From the back), BG, 5 x SO, Buffet, 2 FO's, and 2 SOs.

 

The local services were a mix of DMU's and loco hauled. They were Mk1s and Mk2 a generally.

 

You've picked a very interesting era to model, and there are loads of books and websites for reference. From 1990 the formations were rather more defined, with sectorisation the Inter-city rakes were pretty much standardised.

[brushman47544]

How easily one forgets...

 

I presume the practice of adding and detaching 2 or 3 coaches at Plymouth on Paddington-Penzance services had finished or did it last into the early 80s? Usually 2 TSO + 1 FO/FK.

 

Up to the mid 80s there were at least a couple of rakes of 7-8 mostly declassified Mk2 FKs diagrammed to Paddington - Penzance services. Those I remember were:

 

10.27 Paddington to Penzance (the Class 50 returned on 18.15 Penzance - Bristol and I presume the stock did the same);

17.47 Paddington to Penzance;

10.50 Penzance to Paddington (Coaches off the 17.47 above, Class 50 off the down overnight vans/postal).

[winterbournecm]

The FKs as you mentioned were used in that period and usually formed the 10.50 Pnz to Padd. That was luxury to travel in those coaches.

 

The 10.27 Ex padd worked the 16.15 return. If the loco needed fuel it was often a late start as the Postal engine was often NOT to be used.

 

Booked Plymouth detachments had finished by the mid 80s as I recall.

[D1059]

How easily one forgets...

 

I presume the practice of adding and detaching 2 or 3 coaches at Plymouth on Paddington-Penzance services had finished or did it last into the early 80s? Usually 2 TSO + 1 FO/FK.

 

 

 

I think the scheduled detachment on loco hauled trains may have finished even earlier than the mid 80's, possibly as early as the May 1979 timetable change when HST's started working down to Penzance. Didn't the buffet/restaurant vehicles get detached at Plymouth as well ?

 

STEVE

[brushman47544]

Didn't the buffet/restaurant vehicles get detached at Plymouth as well ?

 

STEVE

 

Some did but I don't think all. I have clear recollections of sitting in the additional coaches for the up Cornish Riviera in Plymouth station and I don't recall a buffet/restaurant amongst them. This was mid/late 70s and the practice may have changed over time.

[Gwiwer]

The Plymouth portion of Penzance trains (from memory a restaurant, an FO laid up for dining, a second class coach an a BG) ceased to be detached as soon as the HST rosters came in. At long last it was possible to get breakfast before Plymouth on the early morning up runs even if there was a "Western", 47 or 50 hauling your train. By the 80s everything ran complete end to end except for the overnight sleepers which detached one (occasionally two) sleeping cars at Plymouth until very recently. The catering coach(es) were almost always detached / attached at Plymouth but worked through on the Golden Hind which - being a premium business train - was felt to warrant service through the Royal Duchy (to and from Truro) and IIRC the restaurant crew lodged overnight in Penzance.

 

Craig has summarised the operations quite well. They did of course vary a bit from year to year and winter to summer. As late as the mid-80s it was still possible to see summer Saturday trains of creaking Mk1 stock formed of 13 -14 (and occasionally 15 or 16) coaches through Exeter either on a London or cross-country working and usually on a Paignton at that length due to the need to assist a single engine over the banks or give it a very generous booking with a long train. There were some long ones right through to Penzance however and also the 00.12 SO Paddington - Newquay which returned at around 11.00 and was booked a 50 with 13 on IIRC.

 

Those long cross-country trains also had no catering by and large and were largely TSO or SK stock with a token first class vehicle in the rake somewhere.

 

A Mk1 RMB appeared in air-con rakes quite regularly on some rosters where a full meal service was not required in either direction. The sleepers (I'm not sure they had the "Night Riviera" title applied back then) had six sitters on the Penzance end and usually five sleepers plus BG. The "wakers" comprised BSO, 3TSO, TSOT and FO but an RMB was used in place of the TSOT on numerous occasions. That rake of 6 coaches performed a Penzance - Paddington - Manchester - Paddington - Penzance diagram while the sleepers rested by day in Old Oak or Long Rock.

 

Exmouth trains were always dmu stock, usually 117/118 triples though anything the WR had could and sometimes did appear. Barnstaple saw a mix of dmu and loco+3 coaches workings with a 31 or 33 rostered and usually the same three-coach rake based at Exeter for the purpose. As I recall it was in pretty poor condition inside and out. Some Paignton locals were dmus while others were the loco+coaches set. The peak-time local up to Honiton was also a dmu working.

 

The advent of sectorisation reduced the unpredictability and all but eliminated the long trains. It did however throw up its own quirks such as NSE stock off the Paddington - Oxford workings taking a summer holiday to Penzance and usually a Mk1 rake while they remained in service. There were also NSE workings from Waterloo - Paignton and Brighton Penzance usually formed of a 9-car Mk2 set behind a 47 or 50; a 50 never worked east of Exeter on the Brighton (except possibly to Salisbury in emergency) as the SR men who worked it from Brighton - Salisbury and back were not trained on them.

[Tricky-CRS]

This great info thank you to all. I have been looking at running a class 50 with 5 coaches based on a pic, will look through this thread and work out what the make up is.

[ess1uk]

Useful thread this.

can't find my spotting books from back in the 80's

thanks

[TomJ]

I think prior to the Sprinters arriving the local stopping Penzance to Plymouth trains were loco-hauled. Usually around 5 coaches and hauled by a 50. Lots of pictures in various books, also of 47s on these trains and sometimes only 4 or even 3 coaches. I believe Laira often used 50s that were not upto top-link duties due to speed limits or something.

 

Also lots of pictures and threads on here of loco subsitutions in the late 80s for failed or absent DMUs in Devon. Often a 47 or a 50 and whatever coaches they could find

[Rivercider]

This great info thank you to all. I have been looking at running a class 50 with 5 coaches based on a pic, will look through this thread and work out what the make up is.

 

If it is a shorter formation you are looking for the 06.35 Bristol - Plymouth was a short train that ran for many years.

It was formed of about 4 or 5 Mk1s with, I believe, booked tail traffic of a BG or GUV or two, it was also used to sweep up

any late running parcel vans for the west that missed connections earlier in the night, so could load heavier.

I am not sure of the whole diagram, but I believe the stock also worked the 13.54 Penzance - Bristol, similarly with tail traffic.

 

Here are some pictures taken at Exeter St. Davids

 

Sorry for the poor quality on a rainy October day, 50044 is working 06.35 Bristol - Plymouth,

there is an additional BG front, and 2 GUVs rear, 31/10/83.

 

On the same rainy day the 07.10 from Barnstaple has arrived behind 33029,

the train is 4 Mk1s, in the distance it looks like a GUV has been detached from the rear, 31/10/83.

 

The 06.35 is shown again in July 1985 with 50047 in charge, still formed of Mk1s

but partly hidden by 50014 which will work the 08.11 to Waterloo, 17/7/85.

 

cheers

[winterbournecm]

Glad to help out. That's the beauty of these forums - everyone has info form different eras. The 80s was my "bag" so had time to absorb everything with yellows ends and blue sides. Not so much to take in nowadays. Strange to think how we are keeping alive train movements from 30 odd years ago.

[barneyman]

Thank you very much for all your help !

 

If some of you are old enough we may have met on a wet and windy platform somewhere!

 

I wish I had taken more notice of what was being pulled behind the loco hauled services and taken more photos at the time, but many people probably thought like me that locos like the 25s, 31s, 33s, 37s, 45s, 46s, 47s, 50s would be around for ever in the west country. Most were so common that I didnt waste camera film on them! Oops big mistake.

 

There was a time, in the age of rail blue when it was a bid deal to see a straford 'silver' roofer 47, little did we know at the time what colour schemes were to follow.

 

Love the 80s as thats when I was able to be out and about watching our railways in action.

 

Regards

 

David

aka Barneyman

[Rivercider]

wish I had taken more notice of what was being pulled behind the loco hauled services and taken more photos at the time, but many people probably thought like me that locos like the 25s, 31s, 33s, 37s, 45s, 46s, 47s, 50s would be around for ever in the west country. Most were so common that I didnt waste camera film on them! Oops big mistake.

 

 

David

aka Barneyman

 

I know what you mean, being born in Exeter I liked to return home as St Davids was a great place for photos.

I have kept my notes, but like you, did not record coach numbers. By the 1980s I was more interested in the picture than the cop,

but still wish I had taken many many more when I had the chance.

 

cheers

[Tim H]

The 50-hauled Mk1 sets mostly ran west of Plymouth providing connections westwards from Plymouth-terminating HSTs. There were also some down trains from further back (Exeter or Swindon), which provided services to Penzance before the first through train from London around midday. Formations varied, but a typical one would be BSK, CK and 2-3 SKs, with the BSK in the middle of the train.

 

Two interesting mid-to-late 80s train were the Anglo-Scottish cross-country services via the WCML, which split into Glasgow and Edinburgh portions at Carstairs, made up of two half-trains with a BFK in each half, and a buffet in the centre of the train.

[cromptonnut]

Anyone remember "Dr Death" who was a well known spotter from Exeter?

[winterbournecm]

The set of MK1s bumbling around in Cornwall were usually down into Penzance at 10.30 (The Murphy) then returned as the 11.35 to Plymouth. Then worked the 15.55 Plymouth to Penzance and 18.10 return. The 11.35 on a Saturday was a great way to get to Plymouth to see Argyle play - and often threw out a pair!

 

 

 

It was a useful way of getting 50s for exams back to Laira, and the 60mph "local workers" were common. I remember 50043 / 021 / 042 doing these turns. The had a plastic notice on the footplate denoting they were local work only.

 

Here's 50035 at Hayle with the 15.55 Ex Plymouth with Dave Harvey driving.

 

And finally 50015 on Hayle viaduct with the down Murphy..

[Pugsley]

Anyone remember "Dr Death" who was a well known spotter from Exeter?

Yes, fairly well. I can remember several occasions when on a railtour someone would shout 'DEATH!' and arms would appear from just about every window on the train

[ess1uk]

Thank you very much for all your help !

 

If some of you are old enough we may have met on a wet and windy platform somewhere!

 

I wish I had taken more notice of what was being pulled behind the loco hauled services and taken more photos at the time, but many people probably thought like me that locos like the 25s, 31s, 33s, 37s, 45s, 46s, 47s, 50s would be around for ever in the west country. Most were so common that I didnt waste camera film on them! Oops big mistake.

 

There was a time, in the age of rail blue when it was a bid deal to see a straford 'silver' roofer 47, little did we know at the time what colour schemes were to follow.

 

Love the 80s as thats when I was able to be out and about watching our railways in action.

 

Regards

 

David

aka Barneyman

yep i was looking through my Platform 5 books last night from the 80s and wishing i'd taken more interest in what the locos were pulling, not just the locos.

would have also helped if i'd made better notes of what i'd taken pictures of.

the joys of hindsight!

[acg5324]

On my photosite there is a near complete day on the seawall at Dawlish mid 1980's http://andygibbs.zen....com/p645909106

 

"Yes, fairly well. I can remember several occasions when on a railtour someone would shout 'DEATH!' and arms would appear from just about every window on the train "

 

 

A bit like this then!!!!

 

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

I presume the practice of adding and detaching 2 or 3 coaches at Plymouth on Paddington-Penzance services had finished or did it last into the early 80s? Usually 2 TSO + 1 FO/FK.

Picked up a bit late on this, but only scanned it yesterday...

Don't know if this was a set with detached portion, but from Jan 1985, Little Bedwyn area, my notes say it was a Penzance-Paddington service.

loco FO FO R?? TSO TSO TSO TSO BG then two non-air-con TSO, possibly a BFK and another BG

 

[ess1uk]

Nice photo eastwestdivide.

[Tim H]

That may be one of the short-lived "Jumbo trains" from the mid-80s, which if I remember correctly did run as a shorter train west of Plymouth. Looks like post-HST standard 8-car set strengthened with some additional vehicles.

 

The 60s/70s portion workings had the buffet car in the Plymouth portion, so few trains had any catering in Cornwall.

[Pugsley]

A bit like this then!!!!

 

Yep, pretty much like that B)

[Crompton48]

Anyone remember "Dr Death" who was a well known spotter from Exeter?

 

Dr Death is alive and well still taking phots !