Bath Queen Square

[queensquare]

Hi Jerry, not sure if it will contain anything you don't already know, but the March 2017 edition of Steam Days magazine has a fourteen page article on Bath "Green Park" as they call it. Half a dozen pictures are from MR/S&D days, including a very nice one of a Johnson Single awaiting departure from Bath.

Stephen

Hi Stephen, yes I have seen it, a very nice article. There were a number of unpublished pictures in there although the only new picture to me was the 7F arriving with a freight in 1947 with an SDJR six wheel brake van in the background.

The previous months Steam Days magazine had an equally good article on the other railways lines around Bath.

 

Jerry

[phil_sutters]

Hi Stephen, yes I have seen it, a very nice article. There were a number of unpublished pictures in there although the only new picture to me was the 7F arriving with a freight in 1947 with an SDJR six wheel brake van in the background.

The previous months Steam Days magazine had an equally good article on the other railways lines around Bath.

 

Jerry

What! There were other railway lines around Bath?

Never!

Edited March 1, 2017 by phil_sutters

[queensquare]

Some great shots of Bath Phil, many thanks for posting them.

 

Jerry

[phil_sutters]

Some great shots of Bath Phil, many thanks for posting them.

 

Jerry

Thanks, Jerry. In case you or anyone else reading thread hasn't spotted my Bath to Bournemouth gallery there are more shots - further down the line at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/4074-sdjr-bath-to-bournemouth/  There is a Somerset Central gallery and another with some scans of Dad's loco spotting logs, currently centering on Bournemouth. I can scan other locations. He was based in Somerset between 1953 & 1973, although his spotting trips took in a fairly wide radius, with the area between Cardiff, Worcester, Swindon, Salisbury, Eastleigh and Exeter being his favoured hunting ground.

[Joseph_Pestell]

I have always been fascinated by the fact that the station is usually known as Green Park even though it only had that name for quite a short time. Does anyone know why the name was changed from the much clearer (in my view) Queen Square? If it really needed to be changed, why Green Park?

[Mulgabill]

Thanks, Jerry. In case you or anyone else reading thread hasn't spotted my Bath to Bournemouth gallery there are more shots - further down the line at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/album/4074-sdjr-bath-to-bournemouth/  There is a Somerset Central gallery and another with some scans of Dad's loco spotting logs, currently centering on Bournemouth. I can scan other locations. He was based in Somerset between 1953 & 1973, although his spotting trips took in a fairly wide radius, with the area between Cardiff, Worcester, Swindon, Salisbury, Eastleigh and Exeter being his favoured hunting ground.

 

May I thank Phil for bringing these to our attention.

 

I have had a quick run through the S&D sets and will be back to visit the others.

 

Thanks again for bringing back the memories of my 1st school railway society trip (Dec65) - a round trip, from Bristol, over the S&D. And giving a glimpse of what I had missed just a few years earlier.

[phil_sutters]

May I thank Phil for bringing these to our attention.

 

I have had a quick run through the S&D sets and will be back to visit the others.

 

Thanks again for bringing back the memories of my 1st school railway society trip (Dec65) - a round trip, from Bristol, over the S&D. And giving a glimpse of what I had missed just a few years earlier.

 

You are very welcome. Dad would have greatly appreciated the interest in his photos and spotting logs, so I am pleased to have made the effort to plough through his albums and log books with my scanner! My ipernity gallery is still in existence although the future of the site is still in the balance. The link in my signature panel has been removed because of the uncertainty. However you should find my albums if you search phil sutters @ ipernity

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by phil_sutters

[queensquare]

I have always been fascinated by the fact that the station is usually known as Green Park even though it only had that name for quite a short time. Does anyone know why the name was changed from the much clearer (in my view) Queen Square? If it really needed to be changed, why Green Park?

 

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Green Park is right next to the station whilst Queen Square is a short walk away so GP is logical. QueenSquare was, and still is, a very smart address in Bath and I have always assumed that when the Midland arrived, some thirty years after the GWR, they wanted to make an impression, hence choosing QueenSquare. Bradshaw and Midland literature always referred to it as QueenSquare although, interestingly, most locals seemed to refer to it as either the Midland or the 'Dorset station.

Quite why BR decided to change the name in the early 50s I don't know but I believe the GWR station had 'Spa' added at the same time so the two may be linked.

Perversely, in conversation I always talk about Green Park when talking about the station but QueenSquare when discussing my model to emphasise the fact I've stuck with the pre-group period!

There, that should make it as clear as mud!

 

Jerry

[Rabs]

Quite why BR decided to change the name in the early 50s I don't know but I believe the GWR station had 'Spa' added at the same time so the two may be linked.

 

It became Bath Spa in 1949, if my research is correct.  I guess that it might have been to do with consolidation of timetables in the early years after nationalisation. Multiple Bath stations appearing in the same timetables was probably thought to cause confusion that hadn't occurred before when they were run by independent companies.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Yes, well that was my point really. The Midland station was already known as Queen Square, a well-known address in Bath so quite clear where the station was. I can't see why they needed or wanted to change it. For that matter, adding "Spa" to the GW station name does not seem to contribute much to understanding either.

[Rabs]

For that matter, adding "Spa" to the GW station name does not seem to contribute much to understanding either.

 

Can't speak for why Green Park/Queen Square was changed but the logic for changing the GW station seems fairly clear to me:  It could have been quite ambiguous to have simply 'Bath' on a timetable with more than one station in Bath, particularly when the station in question was the smaller of the two.  Anyway, I'm getting off topic

Edited March 2, 2017 by Rabs

[queensquare]

Can't speak for why Green Park/Queen Square was changed but the logic for changing the GW station seems fairly clear to me:  It could have been quite ambiguous to have simply 'Bath' on a timetable with more than one station in Bath, particularly when the station in question was the smaller of the two.  Anyway, I'm getting off topic

Don't worry about going off topic!! It's all Bath related.

 

To be honest I have no idea why they changed the name so late. Green Park is much closer to the station than Queen Square but why change the name not much more than a decade before it was closed?

 

Jerry

[phil_sutters]

Don't worry about going off topic!! It's all Bath related.

 

To be honest I have no idea why they changed the name so late. Green Park is much closer to the station than Queen Square but why change the name not much more than a decade before it was closed?

 

Jerry

Ah! but who knew it was going to close? It might have had decades more life.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just been having a look at the map. Yes, Green Park is much closer to the station than Queen Square but it is such an undistinguished bit of green space. I can't think that many people knew where it was. Queen Square still gives a good feel for where the station is situated in the city. Spa seems like a meaningless addition given that the two stations are pretty much equidistant to the old Roman Baths. Logically it would have been South but I can see that would have been confusing with trains going south starting from the other station.

[queensquare]

Ah! but who knew it was going to close? It might have had decades more life.

  

 

Very true!

 

Just been having a look at the map. Yes, Green Park is much closer to the station than Queen Square but it is such an undistinguished bit of green space. I can't think that many people knew where it was. Queen Square still gives a good feel for where the station is situated in the city. Spa seems like a meaningless addition given that the two stations are pretty much equidistant to the old Roman Baths. Logically it would have been South but I can see that would have been confusing with trains going south starting from the other station.

It's a fairly undistinguished green space now but until WWII and a visit from the Luftwaffe there was a fine Georgian terrace at Green Park.

 

Jerry

[bécasse]

Before nationalisation, they would have been referred to as Bath GW and Bath LMS in any official documentation or signing where otherwise confusion may have arisen, but these letters wouldn't have actually appeared on the station nameplates of course. It was quickly realised that they were inappropriate post-nationalisation but the ability to do anything about it was constrained by the materials shortages of the time, the most crucial examples were the first to be renamed.

 

A further round in a similar vane (except that it was never reflected in physical station names) became necessary with the advent of APTIS ticketing machines which could issue tickets to anywhere, meaning that it became necessary to add county names in any case where station names were duplicated or even sounded similar. HAYES presented a particular difficulty since both examples were in Greater London.

Edited March 2, 2017 by bécasse

[queensquare]

Well a real red letter day today. I finally got round to fitting some couplings to my eight coach Manchester Diner rake which I started several years ago. The main reason for this sudden fit of sensible use of personel modelling time was, having proved that the 7F s could haul the longest unaided freight up the bank, I wanted to carry out similar trials for passenger stock.

The usual load for the Diner (Pines from 1927) was six coaches, regularly strengthened to eight or more in the summer. I opted for an eight coach rake as I wasn't confident my 4-4-0s could manage six brass clerestory up the bank so went for eight which would require double heading. I had used plastic for the interiors to keep the weight down and used the beautifully free running Association bogies but, nevertheless, it remains a pretty heavy train.

I needn't have worried, my Raithby based 4F took all eight comfortably (4Fs were allowed eight unaided) and, much to my surprise and delight so did my S&D large 4-4-0 no 70.

This massive leap forward may well encourage me to get the coaches finished and paint the growing queue of finished locos. That said, what's really enthusing me now is cracking on with bridge no 1, the viaduct over the Lower Bristol Road which will allow me to lay the final couple of feet into Bath Junction and then it's a straight run into Queensquare.

The snap below shows SDJR no70 coasting downhill toward Midford having just emerged from Combe Down tunnel. With a load of eight coaches it should, by rights, be piloted. Perhaps there was a shortage of locos at Bath and the train was banked as far as the northern portal!

 

 

Jerry

[John lewsey]

That's a great photo Jerry

[Phil Copleston]

Well a real red letter day today. I finally got round to fitting some couplings to my eight coach Manchester Diner rake which I started several years ago. The main reason for this sudden fit of sensible use of personel modelling time was, having proved that the 7F s could haul the longest unaided freight up the bank, I wanted to carry out similar trials for passenger stock.

The usual load for the Diner (Pines from 1927) was six coaches, regularly strengthened to eight or more in the summer. I opted for an eight coach rake as I wasn't confident my 4-4-0s could manage six brass clerestory up the bank so went for eight which would require double heading. I had used plastic for the interiors to keep the weight down and used the beautifully free running Association bogies but, nevertheless, it remains a pretty heavy train.

I needn't have worried, my Raithby based 4F took all eight comfortably (4Fs were allowed eight unaided) and, much to my surprise and delight so did my S&D large 4-4-0 no 70.

This massive leap forward may well encourage me to get the coaches finished and paint the growing queue of finished locos. That said, what's really enthusing me now is cracking on with bridge no 1, the viaduct over the Lower Bristol Road which will allow me to lay the final couple of feet into Bath Junction and then it's a straight run into Queensquare.

The snap below shows SDJR no70 coasting downhill toward Midford having just emerged from Combe Down tunnel. With a load of eight coaches it should, by rights, be piloted. Perhaps there was a shortage of locos at Bath and the train was banked as far as the northern portal!

 

Wonderful news, Jerry - the day of "The Great Leap Forward" hath cometh at last! I can't wait for your first running session (all round). 

 

Oh, but I shouldn't worry about the lack of pilot: the loco is clearly a runaway without crew... And it looks like the heat and fury of Coombe Down Tunnel has stripped off the paint too... 

 

Good progress, my man. Now you deserve a glass of your favourite amber liquid! 

Edited March 20, 2017 by Phil Copleston

[Re6/6]

Magnificent Jerry!  

[queensquare]

 

Wonderful news, Jerry - the day of "The Great Leap Forward" hath cometh at last! I can't wait for your first running session (all round).

 

Oh, but I shouldn't worry about the lack of pilot: the loco is clearly a runaway without crew... And it looks like the heat and fury of Coombe Down Tunnel has stripped of the paint too...

 

Good progress, my man. Now you deserve a glass of your favourite amber liquid!

Thanks Phil, I have to say I am feeling rather pleased and am, as I type, indulging in a little drop of the amber stuff from north of the border!

 

As for the heat and fury of Combe Down tunnel stripping the paint that would be unlikely as it currently consists of nothing more than the southern portal

 

Jerry

Edited March 21, 2017 by queensquare

[Donw]

Excellent stuff Jerry.  The locos and coaches are first class work and look great in a first class setting. It will be a real treat to see this progress. 

 

Don

[urbancohort]

This is superb modelling. Grew up in Bath and familiar with the station before it became a supermarket and a lot of the original structures were still there. Catching the 339 to go tovschool in Brislington meant I passed it everyday, and had job at Sainsbury's when it opened in 82 up until A levels in 84.This model is beyond reproach. I would love to see it in the flesh!

 

One minor niggle (seriously? Who am I to have a niggle. I ought just to be burning incense before the image of this layout!) The early shots of the station show the stonework clean. My memory is that all of Bath was pretty much black until the late 70s and early 80s when a combination of concentrated effort in washing stonework and reduction in smokey coal fires eliminated that sort of pollution. Or was it kept clean whilst in use and only went black after closure?

 

Thank you for making this and publishing here

[bécasse]

 

One minor niggle (seriously? Who am I to have a niggle. I ought just to be burning incense before the image of this layout!) The early shots of the station show the stonework clean. My memory is that all of Bath was pretty much black until the late 70s and early 80s when a combination of concentrated effort in washing stonework and reduction in smokey coal fires eliminated that sort of pollution. Or was it kept clean whilst in use and only went black after closure?

 

 

This is actually a very common "problem" with historical layouts. Before the Clean Air Act began to bite about 1960, virtually all stone and brick buildings in towns were very significantly stained by the effects of acidic smoke and, indeed, in industrial areas could be almost black. It is an effect rarely modelled, perhaps because even older people only remember the buildings as they were after major cleaning programmes were put in place from the mid-1960s onwards. Brick buildings seem to have cleaned themselves over time but buildings constructed of the more porous stones actually had to cleaned.

 

The effect is easily modelled. Black powder poster paint dusted over models with a soft brush replicates it "beautifully" and is very simple to do.

[Donw]

This is actually a very common "problem" with historical layouts. Before the Clean Air Act began to bite about 1960, virtually all stone and brick buildings in towns were very significantly stained by the effects of acidic smoke and, indeed, in industrial areas could be almost black. It is an effect rarely modelled, perhaps because even older people only remember the buildings as they were after major cleaning programmes were put in place from the mid-1960s onwards. Brick buildings seem to have cleaned themselves over time but buildings constructed of the more porous stones actually had to cleaned.

 

The effect is easily modelled. Black powder poster paint dusted over models with a soft brush replicates it "beautifully" and is very simple to do.

 

Ah but how dirty were these buildings at the period being modelled. The older among us tend to remember the fifties which did seem to be rather dirty. I dont remember cleaning of buildings until later. If Jerry is modelling Midland locos in Midland livery in the early 1900s that would be about halfway through that timescale so giving the full fifties look may or may not be correct. Was it all down to burning coal or did the rise in motor traffic have any impact. 

I do remember visiting Bath in the early 60s (not Queens Sqare through) and the buildings seemed a lot cleaner than the ones in London and Reading.

Don