46233 The Duchess on Tour

[WolfofBadenoch]

Took some video of the Duchess on her 75th anniversary special to Perth.

 

 

Also some clips i took of her last year on the Great Britain.

 

 and

 

Best to switch the quality to 1080pHD on all 3.

[Ramrig]

Ok. First Pic's of 2014. The last season in BR Green 

 

The Yorkshire Coronation

Lincoln - Scarborough - Lincoln.

46233 Derby - Scarborogh - Derby.

 

At speed on the return through Spondon Station at 20:48.

 

 

Five Arches, North end of Derby Station at 21:03.

 

 

After running round its support coach south end of Derby Station at 21: 30. It was not the best evening for light, hence the images appear a little dark.

 

 

[Horsetan]

Aha, I didn't know there was a tank extension at the back of the tender. Useful photo, that.

[Bulleidnutter]

Its not a tank extension. Thats the coal pusher.

[ozzyo]

Its not a tank extension. Thats the coal pusher.

 

Sorry mate, that's nothing to do with the coal pusher. I have been told that it's an extension to the water tank along with some modifications to the inside of the coal space to increase the capacity by 500? gallons, at the expense of loosing some coal space.    

 

The rear of the tender should look something like this with a few more pipes on it but not that big box thing. I'll dig out a better photo of the rear of a Duchess tender in next day or two,

 

OzzyO.

[PhilH]

Is that the box for the GSMR gubbins?

[ozzyo]

Is that the box for the GMSR gubbins?

 

Don't think so Phill, please see above, when you look at it the rear vent pipes have gone and been replaced by (the box) and two pipes that run downward, as "B.R." don't like people up top all filling of water has to be done from down below, so these look to be the tops of the track side filling pipes. If this is the case the only air vents would be the two at the front of the tender near the footplate, these should be enough for the speed of filling using a track side pump, as your not going to get the same amount of water into the tank as dipping the scoop for 30 or 40 seconds at 60 M.P.H. so the air does not need to escape the tank at the same speed.

 

But if this is a tank extension this will mean that that the tank top filler has to be sealed off as the water level would be above it. The big manhole that has all of the bolts around the edge also says water to me. If it was for the electronics it would just be a "clip lock" type of door.

 

OzzyO. 

[The Stationmaster]

It does sound a bit odd adding way over a ton of weight (500 gallons weighs 5,110 lbs) onto the rear axle of a tender which is already carrying 18+ tons of weight, it would put it over a ton heavier than the leading axle which would not help either the balance of the tender or its loading on the engine's dragbox.  It does seem that the tender water capacity has been increased but I would have expected the weight to be more evenly distributed than adding half of it above the rear axle.

 

There must be some more detailed information somewhere but I can't find any on the 'net.  And does anyone know where the Westinghouse pump brake pump and various other additional kit (GSMR, TPWS etc) has been mounted?

[ozzyo]

It does sound a bit odd adding way over a ton of weight (500 gallons weighs 5,110 lbs) onto the rear axle of a tender which is already carrying 18+ tons of weight, it would put it over a ton heavier than the leading axle which would not help either the balance of the tender or its loading on the engine's dragbox.  It does seem that the tender water capacity has been increased but I would have expected the weight to be more evenly distributed than adding half of it above the rear axle.

 

There must be some more detailed information somewhere but I can't find any on the 'net.  And does anyone know where the Westinghouse pump brake pump and various other additional kit (GSMR, TPWS etc) has been mounted?

 

Sorry my post was not that clear, I think that the inside of the coal space up to the top of the turn over (or up to the top of the new tank) became more water space. Therefore along both sides and across the rear of the tender. At the cost of coal.

IIRC a number of years back (1980s?) it was put out as an idea that a Mk1 BG could be converted to have a large water tank installed along its centre line that could be connected to any steam loco that was going to do any long distance running. The amount of coal has never been the problem for most steam loco runs, it has always been the amount of water that the tender can accommodate.

 

Why would the L.M.S. change loco crews at the border (Carlisle) on their fastest trains, it was not because it was the half way point  (that is approx Preston) the line from London is not that bad until you get north of Lancaster then you get onto the climb over Shap, That is when you really start to put the rock in the box. So you dip the scoop at Hess Bank and pick up 2,000 gallons knowing that you should be able to do the same at Dillicare troughs (you have now just gone up from sea level to approx. 350' in about 37 miles), Dillicar troughs are out Shap summit is about  25 miles away (how much water do you have in the tender, [less that 2,000]  Carlisle is about 50 miles away, lets just get over the hill, you get to the top of the hill (Shap) you have 1,000 gallon in the tender, the rest of the work is down the hill. At Penrith the exhaust injector packs in, (about 45 miles from Carlisle) your now down to about to 1,000 in the tank ( but your indicator is showing more as you're going down hill),You check the box, you have a good fire the glasses say you have water above the crown, you don't need to to put any rock in the box, but you want to put some water in the boiler just too cool her down (the tender is now down to 500 gallons).

What do you do? You only have one injector working (the driver wants to arrive on time) the driver is now down in the the 10' talking to the pegman, the water is now showing about 1/4" above the bottom nut. you know that you have about 3/4 mile to go, your driver has said don't touch my injector, get your injector working (how).

As your injector works best under exhaust steam and you lost it, try it under live steam and try and  get some wet in the boiler (not that you have not been trying to do this for a number of miles).  

Driver gets back on the footplate, and says, is every thing aright? that was a good run up from Euston, the loco ran well, all we now have to do is take her up to Kingmoor and change her, I've been onto control and got us a Brit. with a load 14 back to Euston in 2 hours.

Why  have you got your hands around my neck????

 

OzzyO

[ozzyo]

Hello Mister moderator,

 

as it looks like I've had a post remove from this thread would you please let me know why.

 

If it was for any abusive language, I will say that I'm sorry.

 

If it was for having a bit of fun, I will not apologise as I believe that all railway sites should have a bit of fun in them.

 

This is suppose to be a hobby so we can have fun?

 

Paul Hannah. (aka OzzyO)   

[ozzyo]

Its not a tank extension. Thats the coal pusher.

 

As something that I've mentioned has been moderated and what I may or my not have said please have a look at post number 18.

I think that the above post may help to clear up any of the confusion about the rear of the preserved Duchesses  tender's.

The only one that I know that will be correct is City of Birmingham,

 

She is also (now) the last loco that was painted in B.R. green and has never had a repaint.

She was also the last Duchesses to come out of Crewe works after a full works overhaul.   

She also maybe the only Duchess that has the semi. smokebox, on the inside. Some people have mentioned it to me that she has the slopping smokebox on the inside but on the outside the round box.So that would mean that a bit had been welded in place and some dummy rivets fixed in place?

 

OzzyO. 

 

Edit to insert the word now.

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry my post was not that clear, I think that the inside of the coal space up to the top of the turn over (or up to the top of the new tank) became more water space. Therefore along both sides and across the rear of the tender. At the cost of coal.

IIRC a number of years back (1980s?) it was put out as an idea that a Mk1 BG could be converted to have a large water tank installed along its centre line that could be connected to any steam loco that was going to do any long distance running. The amount of coal has never been the problem for most steam loco runs, it has always been the amount of water that the tender can accommodate.

 

 

OzzyO

According to the Princess Royal Loco Trust the tender coal capacity is still 10 tons; they show the water capacity as 5,000gals whereas the original capacity of the MkIV & Mk V tenders is quoted in various publications as 4,000 gals.  Possibly (probably?) the scoop has been removedly which would have made weight and space available for additional water?.  Incidentally Rowledge (in 'Engines of The LMS') notes the MkIv and MKv  tenders that went to the batch of pacifics including 6233 3as being fitted with a coal pusher.

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

the following photos are copyright to the following people and are use to only illustrate points that will be mentioned in the text. V.R. Anderson X2, D. Cousins, the L.M.S. (B.R.?) and Ramrig.

 

If we go back to the start the "Duchesses" had two types of tender, streamlined and not streamlined. The main differences that affect this discussion were at the rear. The streamlined tenders had a ladder and two filler holes, and no vent pipes at the rear as seen below. Note also the two types of rear tank plates,

 

The normal tender has small steps and one filler, and vent pipes at the rear, as seen below, note that this type of tender also has the normal type of side steps while the (ex)streamlined one does not have them,

 

What both types of tender did have were two vent pipes near the footplate in the coal space, and a coal pusher, that is what all the pipe work is to do with on the rear coal plate, the two vertical pipes are the exhaust pipes for it. Below is a photo of the coal pusher, the main ram is the large cylinder at the top centre, IIRC the reason for the two vent pipes was one was for the down stroke and one was for the up stroke, IIRC it was done like this so that the fireman could not leave it running and ram all of the coal into a block or bust the front coal space doors,

 

 

As mentioned before the box thing on the rear of 46233s is part of the new water tank with the tank top filler being closed off and most of the filling being done from the track side (it's safer? no over head to think about). This is done using these connections in the rear frame hole,

 

Some of the extra weight would be offset by removing all of the water pick-up gear and making the coal space smaller, the loss of a ton or two of coal is a small price to pay for 500 - 1,000 gallons of water. 

 

I hope this helps you all,

 

OzzyO. 

 

[PhilH]

Apparently when we get 46100 back next year it will have / has got the same set up.

 

To cover every eventuality the loco will carry scuba gear and lifeboats as no one is too sure how it all works yet.

[Ian Hargrave]

All I want from my local Duchess is that she is fit for a glorious tilt at Shap & Aisgill on October 4th and another wallow in nostalgia and smut in the eye !

[ozzyo]

According to the Princess Royal Loco Trust the tender coal capacity is still 10 tons; they show the water capacity as 5,000gals whereas the original capacity of the MkIV & Mk V tenders is quoted in various publications as 4,000 gals.  Possibly (probably?) the scoop has been removedly which would have made weight and space available for additional water?.  Incidentally Rowledge (in 'Engines of The LMS') notes the MkIv and MKv  tenders that went to the batch of pacifics including 6233 3as being fitted with a coal pusher.

 

Hello Mike,

 

only one Princess Royal loco was fitted with the equipment (the steam pipe) for working a coal pusher type of tender  (6206) tender No. 9359 as seen below, photo copyright D. Ibbotson, L.M.S. Locomotive Profiles by David Hunt, Bob Essery and Fred James.

 

The other way that they could? have added an extra 1,000 gallons to the tender capacity is to fit a drop tank between the frames of the tender.

 

All of the tenders that were fitted to the Princess Coronations (Duchesses) class locos were fitted with coal pushers. The main differences between the tender were as follows,

 

Streamlined, high cut-out at the front end, no rear steps, a ladder to gain accesses to the tank top,  twin water fillers, four air vents in the coal space, short over length side plates at the rear [Approx 3"], (all of these were kept after the tenders were de-streamlined) the holes in the side frames were covered in,

 

Non-streamlined, lower front cut-out, steps at the out side rear and small steps up the back of the tender, only one tank filler on the top, tank vents on the tank top,

 

Non-streamlined, type two, rivet heads on show, but as above for most parts.

 

OzzyO.

[LMS2968]

Tenders on these engines are a bit of a minefield, and that's before any modifications are considered. ALL tenders on the Coronations had coal pushers (chuckers, as the men called them), but of the Princesses only 6206 had a coal pusher, or the steam pipes from engine to tender to allow it to work. After 6206's withdrawal, her tender ran for a while behind 6221.

 

The original Coronation tenders for 6220-29 were streamlined and, as well as extended side sheets had two filler caps, no rear tank vents, a ladder up the left hand rear panel, plated-over lightening appertures in the frames, and the front panel cutaway was higher than standard tenders. 6230-34 were non-streamlined and their tenders were the same as the Princess type apart from the coal pusher and being of welded, not riveted, construction. 6235-52 again had streamlined tenders, although engines 6249 onwards were not themselves streamlined. Then came the tenders for 6253-55, These were part riveted, had the high front cut-away, normal steps up the back but flat rear vents against the rear face of the rear coal bulkhead. Those for 6256-57 were similar, but had a low front cut-away and roller bearings. Although 16 Coronations retained their original tenders for life, the rest interchanged freely. And while the published coal capacity was 10 tons, Crewe North men habitually loaded 12 tons for the overnight Perth Postal - without infringing the loading gauge. Others are reported to have managed 13 tons on the basis they would have used some before they met the first low bridge!

[PhilH]

 other way that they could? have added an extra 1,000 gallons to the tender capacity is to fit a drop tank between the frames of the tender.

 

 

 

Not sure that would work Oz, as delivery pipe / sieve would have to be at bottom of that tank - getting perilously close to ground level then!

[ozzyo]

Not sure that would work Oz, as delivery pipe / sieve would have to be at bottom of that tank - getting perilously close to ground level then!

 

Put the sieve boxes on the outside of the frames, that's what B.R. did.

 

Sorry mate.

 

OzzyO.

[LMS2968]

They are on the outside: they're the square things between the leading and intermediate axle boxes. The frames are four-ply on LMS tenders with internal, but shallower frames, between the outers. There is a well between these inner frames, though.

[ozzyo]

Not sure that would work Oz, as delivery pipe / sieve would have to be at bottom of that tank - getting perilously close to ground level then!

Put the sieve boxes on the outside of the frames, that's what B.R. did.

 

Sorry mate.

 

OzzyO.

They are on the outside: they're the square things between the leading and intermediate axle boxes. The frames are four-ply on LMS tenders with internal, but shallower frames, between the outers. There is a well between these inner frames, though.

 

First the L.M.S. tender tanks tended to be flat bottomed tanks, so to increase the the water capacity you just put a drop tank in between the in side frames (I'm sure that I mentioned that), as long as it's above the top of the axle it's not a problem. No water pick up gear to think about.

 

I'm sure that I mentioned the sieve boxes. Please see the above post, as most L.M.S. (Stanier) tenders had a flat bottom tank, looking at a number of G/As the only part of the tank that was below the base was where the water was taken from.

In later days it was modified to have sieves fitted to the outside of the frames.

 

On all all of the Ex. L.M.S. tenders that I have worked on the only drop down part of the tank was the water exit some times it went direct to the loco, some times it went via the sieve boxes on the outside of the frames.

 

If your thinking about the old M.R. tenders some of these did have drop down tanks, a few other railway Cos. did it as well.

 

OzzyO.   

[The Stationmaster]

Hello Mike,

 

only one Princess Royal loco was fitted with the equipment (the steam pipe) for working a coal pusher type of tender  (6206) tender No. 9359 as seen below, photo copyright D. Ibbotson, L.M.S. Locomotive Profiles by David Hunt, Bob Essery and Fred James.

100 004.jpg

 

The other way that they could? have added an extra 1,000 gallons to the tender capacity is to fit a drop tank between the frames of the tender.

 

All of the tenders that were fitted to the Princess Coronations (Duchesses) class locos were fitted with coal pushers. The main differences between the tender were as follows,

 

Streamlined, high cut-out at the front end, no rear steps, a ladder to gain accesses to the tank top,  twin water fillers, four air vents in the coal space, short over length side plates at the rear [Approx 3"], (all of these were kept after the tenders were de-streamlined) the holes in the side frames were covered in,

 

Non-streamlined, lower front cut-out, steps at the out side rear and small steps up the back of the tender, only one tank filler on the top, tank vents on the tank top,

 

Non-streamlined, type two, rivet heads on show, but as above for most parts.

 

OzzyO.

Sorry Ozzy - should have been clearer - the quote is about the tender on 46233 where the coal capacity is still 10 tons as it was on the original MkIV and MkV tenders (although which it has could only be established from its number by now I would think.  So the coal capacity hasn't changed but the water capacity has increased by 1,000gals - but what we still don't know is where those extra gallons go (I would have thought a well tank between the frames?).

 

Low level filling is increasingly common on main line authorised locos as it is ideal with road tankers (hence the coupling connector pattern) because it is both more easily accessible from lineside/ground level, quicker, requires less manpower, and it avoids hazards where ohle is present.