The Fall & Rise of the 60's ( was The End of the Tugs?)

[beast66606]

Before everyone gets too depressed about the 60s, I would wait and see what happens in the New Year

[BernardTPM]

Part of the problem for the 60 is that its a small class of locomotives built on a comparitivley tiny island in someones back yard compared with the loco building industry in the rest of the world.

 

An island that used to export railway locomotives to just about every country in the world at one time and was still capable of designing a heavy haul loco that is more fuel efficient than the new 70. Still, in my model world it's 1991 and such travesity is still avoidable.

[Glorious NSE]

Anyway, has the curtain finally fallen on the Brush Type 5's??

 

I still doubt this is a final curtain, although they may be all out of traffic for a short while, especially likely over Christmas...longer term though DBS won't be able to cope with the loco's it has, especially if it reckons on using two per train!

 

Longer term they still have a need for a heavy-haul loco, whether they'll go for a refurb 60, a repowered 60, a modded "heavyhaul" 66 or something brand new and shiny I have no clue - cycling them in and out of traffic as needed or running two loco's instead of one are not long term solutions though.

 

I did hear from a very reliable source (ie, he'd been to Siemens earlier that week) that Siemens may be looking at buying some cheap from DB, and re-engine with a Cat lump and use them as hire locos, either UK or Europe. The shells are in good condition, with very little, if any, rust on the very worst examples. Siemens and DB have a very good working relationship apparently

 

Isn't there in the region of 20-odd that are "terminal" non-runners, good candidates they could offload without affecting the usable(ish) fleet?

 

Use them as a template for rebuilds on the rest?

[big T]

Are we going to see trains such as the Kingsbury tanks reduced to 25 TEA's (max load for a standard shed), and additional trains made up to offset the reduced loads or pairs of sheds introduced?

 

Either way, not a particularly good idea from an opearting point of view, or obtaining customer satisfaction!

 

DB and EWS have systematically run 60's into the ground - maybe they just didn't have the money to do anything more than a B exam and tried to keep the going for as long as possible without expending any cash on them?

 

(I'm not knocking the maintainence staff here, just the accountants who run the railways today. Everything is governed by the ??).

 

They have (nearly 100 locos apart from Xmas trees 098 etc), and I am damn sure they could make a half decent fleet of 20 or so with all the bits from cannibalising the rest

 

IMO Britains railways were sentenced to death the day good 'ol Ed took over.

 

What a ludicrous state things have become.

[beast66606]

Before everyone gets too depressed about the 60s, I would wait and see what happens in the New Year

 

Just in case the invisible ink problem is back ...

[Grimleygrid]

I hope you are right Beast!

 

Problem is there are so many rumours doing the rounds that it is difficult to know what is true and what isn't. I suppose we will have to just wait and see. My feeling is that if they get withdrawn we just won't see them return......

 

I see double-headed sheds is the order of the day on a few workings this morning!

[Piemanlarger]

i believe its double headed sheds on the murco oil train today instead of the usuall 60.

 

The end is ney.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or maybe its a day off!

[Glorious NSE]

My feeling is that if they get withdrawn we just won't see them return......

 

Pretty sure all of the usable ones have been withdrawn....and reinstated....and withdrawn....and reinstated...etc etc

[Ron Ron Ron]

......(I'm not knocking the maintainence staff here, just the accountants who run the railways today. Everything is governed by the ??).....

 

Everything governed by the ?? ?

Mmmm? Of course it is, it is a business after all.

The very reason for which the railways were built in the first place.

 

 

IMO Britains railways were sentenced to death the day good 'ol Ed took over....

 

Taking on and sorting out virtually the whole of BR's freight empire (outside of Freightliner) must have been a massively difficult task. I'm sure some would have said a task almost doomed to fail given the inheritance that came with it.

That burden is something that the new start-up FOC's and a rejuvinated FL haven't have to carry.

 

Getting rid of the huge fleet of 1950/60's era geriatric locos was a given, but the remaining "newer" stock (56, 58, 60's ) clearly were a liability too, despite the relatively junior age of the latter two types.

With their low levels of reliabilty and availability, coupled to the resulting high maintenance costs, it's no suprise that the 56's and 58's were withdrawn. Plus you have to consider the effect on rail freight needs caused by the closure of most of the UK's coal mines and the run down of our heavy industry.

 

On the other hand (well the way it looks to me ), the class 60 story is bit of a mixed and rather sad one.

 

The newest and most modern ex-BR diesel loco in EWS/DBS's fleet, you'd have thought it would have had a decent future ahead of it? .

Despite the many early problems (didn't it involve the largest number of warranty claims ever made by BR on a single contract ? ), the concensus appears to be that it's a well made and solid performer.

However I think the 60 may well epitomise many of the negative aspects of the former state railway when it comes to ordering new equipment.

If the story is correct, BR adopted a "knobs & whistles" approach to specifying this loco, resulting in what is arguably an over-engineered and complex machine. Whatever thought was given to reliabilty and future maintenance requirements, clearly it wasn't sufficient for economic operation in an open market.

You do have to question if that was the right sort of approach compared with say, the class 59 (rugged, durable, relatively simple with just enough high-tech to do the job).

 

Anyway, at the end of the day harping on about the past is of no use whatsoever. Like any company, DBS has to look at its current and future business and organise its assets accordingly.

Whatever the recent history of the company and this loco class, the fact is they have a tired fleet of 60's, many of which have been out of service for quite a while.

If they have a future need for this type of loco post-recession, then at some point they'll either have to spend some money on restoring them to a satisfactory condition, or look at bringing in a replacement type.

 

I read somewhere that the options were looked at quite a while back; and range from major overhaul to a complete rebuild with new engines and electronics (that includes replacing the electronic traction control stuff too).

I assume that the more that needs to be done, the greater the attraction of a complete replacement becomes.

Another possible option is not to bother either way and not have a "heavy-hauler", but personally I can't see that being a long term situation for such a large operator.

Who knows? Before dismissing it as an option, it might be worth reflecting on the possibility that it might make more sense to just continue double-heading the few services that need that sort of power?

 

Whatever DBS do, it has to be the right decision for them and if the 60's do go, so be it; that will be the right decision full stop!

 

As a non-spotting, slightly enthusiast, interested in the railways type of person , I find it all a bit sad as these are my favourite diesel freight locos. But the reality is that sentiment matters not one jot.

It would be nice if they go for the complete re-build though.

 

.

[Edwin_m]

Another option would be for DBS to re-gear some of their 66/0s to the 66/5 configuration, or even lower. The engine power of the 66 is similar to that of a 60, and this mod would increase tractive effort close to that of the 60 at the cost of reducing maximum speed.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Another option would be for DBS to re-gear some of their 66/0s to the 66/5 configuration, or even lower. The engine power of the 66 is similar to that of a 60, and this mod would increase tractive effort close to that of the 60 at the cost of reducing maximum speed.

If I remember correctly; wasn't that possibilty mentioned by one of the top EWS boys in one of the "mags" a while back?

 

.

[Glorious NSE]

Before dismissing it as an option, it might be worth reflecting on the possibility that it might make more sense to just continue double-heading the few services that need that sort of power?

 

It makes some sense in the very short term if they are paying leasing charges for that loco anyway and if it were otherwise standing idle, but leasing two loco's to do a job where one would work has to be more expensive in the longer term, even before taking fuel into account.

 

To my mind, if they were talking of doing it long term they would have to be looking at trains being 50% longer to make it pay - for instance if they were talking of 2+48 on Humber oil trains.

 

They did run 2+42 coal trains for a bit which worked except there was almost nowhere the train could fit into for regulation purposes!

 

I guess they might be able to retime some of the 60 duties to work overnight to be less of an issue in that regard, but I doubt it's possible with all of them without impacting on use of other assets like wagons, access to terminals etc.

[Steadfast]

i believe its double headed sheds on the murco...Or maybe its a day off!

 

There were a couple of days in early September when that happened, here on 1/9/09

Hope this wasn't the last Tug I fot for a while...and beast's hints are usually pretty reliable

 

I still find the fuel economy and build of the 66s a real shock in comparison to the 60s, and double heading can't be a realistic long term option, as Martyn says train lengths would need a huge increase for this to work long term. Markets are still down, so hopefully as they pick up, a need for more traction, and heavier trains, could see a pick up of the Brushes. Only time will tell, think positive in the mean time

 

cheers

 

jo

[Glorious NSE]

Like that pic across the river Jo.

[Gary H]

 

IMO Britains railways were sentenced to death the day good 'ol Ed took over.

 

Very more than likely, Britains railways were sentenced to death the day maggie T took over.

I think Ed done a fairly good job of picking up the pieces and turning the tables of British railfreight tbh, same can be said of those 'horrible' sheds

[Crossfell5]

Thing is though - old Maggie couldn't even get Privatisation right - if she done it when she threatened too in say 1981 - we'd still have DMU's and loco & Stock running around.

 

No ATOC would have been able to afford to buy New Stock etc....

 

 

Crossfell5

['CHARD]

Thing is though - old Maggie couldn't even get Privatisation right - if she done it when she threatened too in say 1981 - we'd still have DMU's and loco & Stock running around.

 

No ATOC would have been able to afford to buy New Stock etc....

 

 

Crossfell5

Well she didn't do it - the Major administration did, in the 1993 Act. I would never defend her policies but she did have other things to deal with before contemplating legislation for this.

 

ATOC is a much later confection, and it is an industry body funded by those it represents, not an operator. RoSCos and other private third parties have bought all the new stock, so there is no justification in believeing that any of that old stock would be running now: its average age would be 40+.

[Crossfell5]

I'm 40+ and still going strong

[Shedmaster]

Hi all,

 

It's well known that I despise Class 66's, however,

 

I recently had the pleasure of driving three in multi ( 9,900hp! ) on a 1,800t train and can honestly say it was a pleasure to drive - as if there wasn't even a train attached !

 

Now, seeing as work is a bit in short supply for us freight boys n' gals, resulting in plenty of 66's sitting around idle, why cant the DBS sheds feasibly be 'locked' together in the same way that NSE did with the 2-HAPS(?) at the end of their working lives, i.e run 'pairs' of 66's working in multi, large cabs at the outer ends, thereby working each Loco. only 'half as hard' and using less fuel ?

 

This would give great results for fuel economy, acceleration AND the ability to pull our trains properly, all at the same time and also bend the figures in relation to the leasing costs.....i.e, we'd then get our moneys worth ?

 

Alternatively.........SELL/UN-LEASE THE WHOLE DAMNED LOT and just hire what we need to run our trains at the time...........thats all we do now, hire Loco's off of ourselves (WFMU) and unfortunately cant even get that balance right !

 

We tell way too many customers each week that their train will be cancelled/delayed due to US having no Loco. Could you imagine going into a restaurant and having your dinner served, only to be told that your knife and fork are out on another job and wont be available for another six hours ?

 

I do love the 60's and realise that business needs to move with the times....BUT for what it's worth..........theres got to be a better way ?

 

Rant over...........

 

Dave

[59004 ( was Shedcombe....)]

This sounds more and more as if DBS is deliberately sabotaging its own chances to more freight by rail.

 

The cynic in me wonders of this is the proof that the owner of DBS ( the German government ) is deliberately sabotaging UK economics, for the German economics the benefit ?

 

 

Regards, Michel

[Jack]

This sounds more and more as if DBS is deliberately sabotaging its own chances to more freight by rail.

 

The cynic in me wonders of this is the proof that the owner of DBS ( the German government ) is deliberately sabotaging UK economics, for the German economics the benefit ?

 

 

Regards, Michel

 

If that is the case they'd better hurry up, by the time New Labour have finished there won't be anything left worth sabotaging

[Gary H]

This sounds more and more as if DBS is deliberately sabotaging its own chances to more freight by rail.

 

The cynic in me wonders of this is the proof that the owner of DBS ( the German government ) is deliberately sabotaging UK economics, for the German economics the benefit ?

 

 

Regards, Michel

Which just goes to reainforce my earlier post.....

Bean counters now run this 'circus' not railway people, folks. But not to worry, all the infrastructure is also heading the same way, so atleast it'l all match

[big T]

Hi all,

 

 

 

I recently had the pleasure of driving three in multi ( 9,900hp! ) on a 1,800t train and can honestly say it was a pleasure to drive - as if there wasn't even a train attached !

 

 

 

Hi Dave

 

Did you turn the front one off and have the back 2 doing all the work, and sit in the quiet?!!

 

I agree with the locking them together, but the temptation is still there to get em all running! (I assume that you are a DB man, - is notch 8 still a no-no?!!)

[James]

And no real work for 66's? Ask Malcolm, Asda, Tate & Lyle etc whether they want 40 year old traction instead of a nice 99% reliable modern unit on their anglo Scottish intermodals.

 

That's a very dangerous thing to say to enthusiasts!

 

Sadly many enthusiasts don't care or even comprehend issue like this; many of us love seeing tatty class 37s hauling trains but if that turned up at you brand new multi million pound rail served distribution centre you'd be annoyed but pleased if you saw a new (or seemingly new) loco painted in your companies colours.

[Shedmaster]

Hi Dave

 

Did you turn the front one off and have the back 2 doing all the work, and sit in the quiet?!!

 

I agree with the locking them together, but the temptation is still there to get em all running! (I assume that you are a DB man, - is notch 8 still a no-no?!!)

 

Hiya,

 

Thats actually a bloody good idea, I got too power hungry though, but with three Loco's sharing the work, it was considerably quieter anyway, as there was no 'struggling'.

 

Has anybody actually worked out yet that the 66/0 cannot handle many of the loads we give them on their own ?

 

They're fine on anything around 1500t, but then you're just asking too much.

 

It's okay to moan about getting stuck behind a scabby, tinpot EMU which you have to then follow 'all stations' uphill, but is it not US overloading our trains to the point where the 66 just stalls, that is the real problem ?

 

As a 'DB' man, I still have to abide by the 'Notch 8' rules, to save fuel we're told, but there are always exceptions !

 

Dave