The Fall & Rise of the 60's ( was The End of the Tugs?)

[jbqfc]

6100 Doncaster 11-05-17

 

60100 by john brace, on Flickr

 

60100 by john brace, on Flickr

[BritishRail60062]

Here is some beauties from my trips over the last two months .

 

June:

Newark Castle

Class 60, DB Schenker 60063 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Nottingham

Class 60, DB Schenker 60054 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Barnetby

Class 60, DB Schenker 60063 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Class 60, DB Schenker 60063 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Class 60, DB Schenker 60054 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Doncaster

Class 60, Colas Rail 60056 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

July:

Barnetby

Class 60, DB Schenker 60091 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Class 60 Colas Rail 60076 "Dunbar"; by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Class 60, DB Schenker 60039 "Dave Holes"; by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Class 60, Colas Rail 60087 by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

Kind Regards

Ash.

[newbryford]

The rumours are getting stronger that 20 60s have been sold to Wabtec.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Wild Boar Fell]

The rumours are getting stronger that 20 60s have been sold to Wabtec.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Now that's a class that would look smart in Hector Rail colours...

 

Wild Boar Fell

[cornish trains jez]

The rumours are getting stronger that 20 60s have been sold to Wabtec.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

It would be great to see these powerful machines put to good use rather than languishing at Toton.

[Iron Horse]

Can I ask a stupid question as to what would they do with them?

[daveyb]

Possibly refurbish and sell on overseas?

[black and decker boy]

There have been long standing rumours of a need for some at GBRF though not 20.

 

No one seems to know what traffic they would be for, yet.

 

Apparently there is now a TOPS location for GBRF at Westerleigh and they are recruiting in S Wales......

 

It's very intriguing

[BritishRail60062]

Possibly refurbish and sell on overseas?

I wonder if any could be used in Ireland? Assuming that Wabtec/Brush would modify them to meet the 116t weight limit? As the limit is set to 18.8 tons per axle. I would be curious to see where else these locomotives could go abroad. Unless Poland could use them?

 

The rumours are getting stronger that 20 60s have been sold to Wabtec.

 

Cheers,

Mick

That is a good sign as Toton has been a boneyard for most of the class with some being stored for over ten years . If possible, I hope some will pass to Freightliner for the FHH iron ore trains as maybe they could buy some on the sly .

[jonas]

There have been long standing rumours of a need for some at GBRF though not 20.

No one seems to know what traffic they would be for, yet.

Apparently there is now a TOPS location for GBRF at Westerleigh and they are recruiting in S Wales......

It's very intriguing

How about the Margham to Dee Marsh steel that DBS has made a complete hash of, needing to sun contract FLHH to provide power for? 60s required for the tough marches line?

[beast66606]

Apparently there is now a TOPS location for GBRF at Westerleigh and they are recruiting in S Wales......

 

 

For drivers with 66 knowledge

[BritishRail60062]

If GBRF and FLHH are interested in some Class 60's, then surely it would be logical for some drivers to go to DBC for type-training so that they can handle the Class 60's competently when they gain them? I would have assumed this was the case when Colas bought their ten from DBC?

 

Either way, its going to be an interesting situation to see what will become of those 20 Class 60's as I don't think Brush/Wabtec would buy them without a good cause to get a good profit from the resale/lease. If any are destined to Ireland. I think the Irish train drivers would love to drive them considering how quiet they are inside the cab when compared to a 66. I think even the GBRF/FLHH drivers will prefer them once they have had the chance of driving one .

 

I think 2017 has been a great year for trains in my opinion.

[Ohmisterporter]

Doesn't Ireland have 5'3" rail gauge?  

[BritishRail60062]

Doesn't Ireland have 5'3" rail gauge?  

Yes mate it does. However the only adjustments needed would be to move the wheels out by 3 and 1/2 inches each side and that would be taken care of if the Hitachi adjustable wheelsets could be implemented here as then the Class 60's could be used in Ireland and also if they ever returned to the UK or even moved onto Europe. There would be no need to re-axle the wheels, should Brush/Wabtec team up with Hitachi for the wheelsets .

Edited July 29, 2017 by BritishRail60062

[beast66606]

If GBRF <snip> are interested in some Class 60's, t

 

According to someone (elsewhere) who is always spot on with his knowledge (I suspect he works for GB) they aren't interested in 60s.

[BritishRail60062]

Right then. If that is the case and unless GBRF are intentionally denying their interest publicly (with good reason). I am suspecting that the only other viable buyer unless Colas is expanding their operations. It would be FLHH as they could use them on the iron ore bulk trains and perhaps they could/would sell off their 66/6's to GBRF as they seem to have set their minds to just 66's for the majority of their freight workings which is easier for driver type training. So if that is the case, then at places like Barnetby etc. There could be more 60's to photograph if FLHH gain any from those 20 Class 60's from Brush/Wabtec and displace their 66/6's to GBRF which is my suspicion here .

[4630]

If GBRF and FLHH are interested in some Class 60's, then surely it would be logical for some drivers to go to DBC for type-training so that they can handle the Class 60's competently when they gain them? I would have assumed this was the case when Colas bought their ten from DBC?

 

 

 

 

IIRC the driver (and route training) for Colas 60s took place in December 2014 from Doncaster to Doncaster via Hebden Bridge.  This was in the month before Colas took over the contract for the Lindsey Oil Refinery to Preston bitumen tanks, effective from January 2015.   Here is 60087 reversing at Hebden Bridge on 9th December 2014 with 0Z94, 08.00 Doncaster to Doncaster.

 

 

 

 

As a general point where ever the class 60s end up, as far as Wabtec/Brush acquiring 20 class 60s for possible future use is concerned, it strikes me as a pretty shrewd business move.  They wouldn't be doing it unless they had identified a future business use for them and had a pretty solid business case.

 

On the assumption that the locos retain their Mirlees power units, reconditioned of course, then they should have 'grandfather' rights as far as current emission regulations are concerned.  And I would guess this is a cheaper option for heavy haul options than the alternative which, as far as I'm aware, would only be new build class 70s.  I'm assuming that a solo class 68 wouldn't have enough grunt to handle the heaviest duties that a solo 60 (or a solo 70 for that matter) can manage.  

[eastwestdivide]

How soon would a pool of locos be needed for HS2 construction work?

[BritishRail60062]

There is some food for thought there @4630. To be honest, I think there is a bright future for those 20 tugs but I think its safe to say we can rule out GBRF as a potential buyer for those because they are looking for more 66's from what I heard/read on other forums. Freightliner could be a potential customer as although they have about 18 Class 70's kicking about and some surplus ones. At the time I write this, they use their Class 66/6's on the iron ore trains and to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised if they dip their toe into the 60 pool and buy a handful to use on the FLHH iron ore trains and then perhaps sell on some of their 66/6's to GBRF which they could use on the drax trains as their current 66's seem to struggle with as unlike the 66/6's that have low speed gearing. Their in-house 66/7 fleet are not fitted to my knowledge, including the imported ones .

 

Another potential customer could be DRS, although DRS has never seemed interested in doing heavy haul contracts. So I don't think they would be interested in taking any on unless they are planning to use them on new contracts. Although HS2 work could be a potential contract for both DRS and FLHH .

 

Nice photos by the way there mate. When I was last down Barnetby. I did manage to get 60076 on the Preston to Lindsey Bitumen working, although it took three attempts this year as twice it got cancelled but I was determined to get it on camera and I am glad that I did . Talking of 60087, that one seems to be regular on the Rectory Junction to Lindsey working although that one has spent a lot of time at the new sidings in Barnetby as I got it on a "fly-by" photo from the Class 185 that brought me home that evening .

[BritishRail60062]

Here is 60008 that I took last year.

Class 60, EWS 60008 "Sir William McAlpine" at Toton by BritishRail60062, on Flickr

 

This is one of the 20 that Brush/Wabtec has bought and to be honest, the locomotive is in pretty good condition since its turbo went kaput in 2007! So this has got me thinking about how Brush/Wabtec could bring these 20 Class 60's up to par. For starters, they should replace the old and perhaps ceased DC traction motors with the ABB AC traction motor package with regenerative brakes and this combined with the Hitachi adjustable wheelsets would be a good start there. Next would be to rebuild the cab interiors with a new control desk with the layout similar to a Class 67 but with the Class 70 style controls all on a desk with touch screen menus like an Ipad interface. This in mind, the cab windows could remain untouched and therefore retain its integrity.

 

As for the power unit and engine room. Basing my estimates on the limit of 116 tons for Ireland. The new traction package and rebuilt cabs as well a brand new CPU that is lighter would/should shed off some weight from the advertised 131 tons to around 126 tons at the very least as new equipment is lighter than the old equipment right? . So I think for Ireland, the Mirrlees Blackstone MB275 that is a whopping 22 tons would have to be replaced with a modern lighter power unit. Something like a MAN/Paxman 12VP185 at 7.7 tons or a 16VP185 at 10.2 tons. However another option would be the MTU 16V4000 43R that is advertised at 8.7 tons which I believe that the HST's (excluding the EMT ones) were retro fitted with in 2006/7 . I think if Brush/Wabtec tried this, then maybe they could develop their own homegrown British built diesel locomotive in the future from the research of using an existing locomotive like the Class 60 .

 

Some food for thought there and if anyone from Brush/Wabtec read this, please pass it on to the development team, thanks .

[rob D2]

As much as I like them, they are old technology now.

I can't see FLHH sing any if their 66/6s can do the job - there appear to be loads of idle locos sitting around in the UK at present

[black and decker boy]

Why would Ireland need a heavy haul loco, they have very little freight anyway and no big bulk flows as far as I see.

 

As for HS2, you are looking at 2020 probably for start of tunnelling so maybe some scope for spoil trains but the existing fleets have coped with Crossrail spoil. In terms of track & ballast which is where locos have been needed in larger numbers, I'd say 2023 ready for opening of the line in 2026.

[BritishRail60062]

Why would Ireland need a heavy haul loco, they have very little freight anyway and no big bulk flows as far as I see.

 

As for HS2, you are looking at 2020 probably for start of tunnelling so maybe some scope for spoil trains but the existing fleets have coped with Crossrail spoil. In terms of track & ballast which is where locos have been needed in larger numbers, I'd say 2023 ready for opening of the line in 2026.

As I understand it, Ireland is heavily investing into its rail network and that includes new lines and will lead to more trains and perhaps freight being taken off the road and moved by rail. Also if a link between Larne and Cork oil refineries is built. The small fleet of Class 60's in Ireland would take care of the oil trains and also they could be deployed on the Tara Mines stone trains as well .

 

ON the UK side of things though. Although the Class 60's are 28 years old just based on the 1989 examples, there is still plenty of life left in them and they are still a pretty young fleet when compared to the Class 37's, Class 47's and even the remaining Class 20's and Class 31's that are over 50 years old that are still in active service. But even with the HS2 project that will provide work for the Class 60's. I think that DBC should flog all the remaining surplus Class 60's to Brush/Wabtec to refurbish and rebuild the healthier ones and perhaps sell them overseas as I think places like Bulgaria, Poland and perhaps Australia that could use some on their bulk coal and stone trains. This is besides those that I recommended for Ireland.

 

However that said, the bad ones like 60081 and 60006 which are badly damaged. Unless there was a big investment pumped into them, they are only really usable for spares. But for 60070, 60064 and 60098 which are more or less bodyshells on wheels. They could end up the same way unless they would be useful as a prototype for the new traction equipment and the power units for testing .

[rob D2]

But there needs to be a market ? Bit like me saying I hope my local Lidl starts flogging beluga caviar - nice idea but no market .

 

Why would Ireland buy these demics when for years there has been GM products there I think .... and the 60s niche is the stuff that 66s can't pull - is there anything in Ireland like heavy enough ?

 

We have to think more as businessmen , less as enthusiasts with these what if scenarios

[BritishRail60062]

But there needs to be a market ? Bit like me saying I hope my local Lidl starts flogging beluga caviar - nice idea but no market .

 

Why would Ireland buy these demics when for years there has been GM products there I think .... and the 60s niche is the stuff that 66s can't pull - is there anything in Ireland like heavy enough ?

 

We have to think more as businessmen , less as enthusiasts with these what if scenarios

I agree with you mate. But although the Class 60's are not a new locomotive any more and I will not pretend otherwise . I was wondering why Brush/Wabtec would buy 20 of them from DBC in the first place if there was no market for them? I think there is a valid reason for Brush/Wabtec to invest in buying those locomotives to make a profit from them. Either as lease to a TOC or to sell onwards as rebuilt/refurbished locomotives which I have a feeling the latter is more appropriate.

 

Meanwhile about the Ireland scenario, if they wanted to explore the heavy haul market in the future. Would the GM 201 and the 071 class locomotives have the hauling capabilities of one of those Class 60's? As far as I am aware, their current fleet doesn't have the low-ratio gearing. Also from a business prospective view, in the recent years. Iarnrod Eireann has ploughed a lot a money into renewing their network and rolling stock over the last decade and is continuing to do so even now. With that taken into account, IE/IR would want to maximise their return on their investment and getting more freight back on the rails is a good way to do that . Not to mention that it will take some more trucks off the tracks in the process which can only be a good thing.

 

Also if longer heavy haul trains ran in Ireland which is a possible avenue in the not too distant future. Surely it would be cheaper to buy a small fleet of pre-loved rebuilt Class 60's to try the heavy haul market rather than pay more for something like a GE Class 70 that could be a higher risk if the market fails and would be a larger lost in investment? On the other hand, if heavy haul freight market took off in Ireland. Then both IE and any other private freight operators could buy either more Class 60's from Brush/Wabtec/DBC on the cheap. Or buy something from GE like the Class 70. I would have suggested the EMD Class 66. But I thought that 66779 for GBRF was the very last one built, so that route is a no go either? Does EMD still make any locomotives for the European market any more since GM has changed hands? As I believe GM is now owned by the Daimler-Chrysler group.

 

I remember the early 1990's (or could have been the late-1980's) when CIE (as it was known then) bought a load of ex-BR Mk2's and refurbished and rebuilt them to use on their railway network. They lasted until around 2007/8 when they were replaced with Korean built ICR railcars that are known as the 22000 class and they look like something that is a blend of a Class 170 and a Class 175 .

 

We will have to wait and see what happens with those 20 Class 60's.