Jump to content

ess1uk

what's the difference between MSV & ZKV wagons?

Recommended Posts

may sound dumb, but,

what's the difference between MSV & ZKV wagons?

are these wagons similar or the same?

i have one of each in my box of wagons but can't tell them apart

would like to know what they are used for and if they can run together or not

thanks

Edited by ess1uk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not much, they are one and the same

 

MSV were iron ore/china clay tipplers, many of which were transferred to carry aggregates "Stone" http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ironoretipplermsv

 

The code ZSV was used for the same wagons when transferred to the engineers departmental fleet http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ironoretipplermsv/e35cefe2b

 

Paul Bartlett

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

cheers Paul, thought it would be you who would answered first

that would be why i can't tell them apart then

problem solved. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MSV was the TOPS code given to 26t vac-fitted iron-ore/stone tipplers in traffic use.

ZKV was the code given to these wagons when transferred to the Departmental fleet. They also sometimes carried the name 'Barbel'. ZKV was also used for the former MTV tipplers- these acquired the code 'Zander'

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Both types were much used in the south west where your layout is based I believe?

 

MSVs were used for stone traffic from Foster Yeoman at Merehead, also ARC at Whatley, and Tytherington north of Bristol.

Loading to Oxford/Botley/Theale/Appleford/Fareham amongst others. The shortest train I can remember would have been about 26 MSVs.

Gradually they were turned over to the engineers during the 1980s.

When they were in engineers use for loading spoil they worked out of Bristol East Depot , and later Westbury, to engineering locations all over the place, the spoil going to Stoke Gifford Tip.

They also sometimes were used for loaded ballast out of Meldon Quarry.

During this time they generally went to Bristol Barton Hill for maintenance, when they could be seen running in smaller numbers.

 

cheers

Edited by Rivercider
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ah the lovely Stoke Gifford tip, soon to be an IEP depot.

cheers for the info

looks like they can stay on the layout then :)

Edited by ess1uk
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ZKV's the best spoil wagon ever. High capacity per unit length, and the sides were tall enough that the guard could not see how much you had put in them.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What would usually be pulling these workings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Locos used to haul MSV/ZKV would have been anything vacuum braked.

My knowledge of the working is mostly WR Bristol division based.

In the early 1980s the standard power for MSV stone trains from Tytherington would have been

a single class 45/46/47 or a pair of 37s.

The trains out of Merehead/Whatley were probably a 47 or pair of 37s.

In the late 1980s when the wagons became ZKVs locos would have been 47s and increasingly 37s,

by the 1990s class 37s would have been most likely.

 

post-7081-0-05756300-1331293738_thumb.jpg

47284 stands on the up reception at Westbury with a loaded train of MSVs from set 7627, 3/1/81.

 

 

post-7081-0-94211300-1331293846_thumb.jpg

45101 working Bristol area trip T82 waits on the up reception at Stoke Gifford with empty MSVs for Tytherington,

this later became the site of the Royal Mail platform, and the carpark is now double decked, 10/7/85.

 

cheers

Edited by Rivercider
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Got another MSV for the collection today, but looking at the above pictures I'll need a few more.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would they usually run with a brake van on the rear?

If so what type?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would they usually run with a brake van on the rear? If so what type?

Being fitted with vacuum brakes, they wouldn't normally need one if they were working as a block train.
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Being fitted with vacuum brakes, they wouldn't normally need one if they were working as a block train.

That's what I thought, but always best to check.

Cheers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Picking up on this old thread, does anyone know when the last of the ZKV Barbel's disappeared from the network?

 

I've seen 1999-dated photos of the wagons in use, did any linger on in service into the new Millenium?

 

Thanks,

James

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Picking up on this old thread, does anyone know when the last of the ZKV Barbel's disappeared from the network?

 

I've seen 1999-dated photos of the wagons in use, did any linger on in service into the new Millenium?

 

Thanks,

James

 

When did EWS dispense with its Vac braked locos (31 & 37)?

 

There was certainly a huge push to convert the MKA / MTA / Coalfish / ZCA  by EWS and the Railtrack PNA 2 axle wagons to eliminate vacuum stock before the newer higher capacity Falcons etc were built.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Picking up on this old thread, does anyone know when the last of the ZKV Barbel's disappeared from the network?

 

I've seen 1999-dated photos of the wagons in use, did any linger on in service into the new Millenium?

 

Thanks,

James

Hi James,

 

Martyn has some photos that appear to be from 2004 so they were still around then.

 

http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/Z-Tops-codes/ZKV-Barbel-and-Zander-spoil/i-pShcKHf/A

 

Just found a shot that seems to be from 2010 - so, even if not in use, they were still lying around in some places!

 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks guys - I did have a feeling that the influx of rebuilt ballast wagons like the Coalfish & others helped EWS shed most of these though seeing those 2004 pictures is intriguing! Some of those shots do look like odd stabled wagons, so it would be very interesting to see if anyone has any notes of when they were last running on the mainline past '99.  

 

I do just love how much of an anachronism these old tipplers are against their newer surroundings, can definitely feel some interesting wagon projects coming on!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

31s went all the way back in 2001 I think, 37s lasted with EWS till 2009/10 or so, after vac braked engineers trains had gone, keeping them was more to do with handling trains in the dwindling number of places that 66s weren't allowed.

The pictured one at Exeter Riverside (which survived at least one wagon scrapping programme at Riverside by cunningly disguising itself as a bush!) is an escapee, by 2004 when I first shot it (and it's not moved between 2004 and 2010) I would judge that vac braked engineers workings in the south of England had finished, though there were reasonable numbers of survivors in the back corners of assorted yards.

The PNA, MFA and MTA* fleets were mostly converted by the millenium, and by 2004 there must have been circa 500 Coalfish out there (and growing) too...I think there will have been an intentional run down to virtually zero between 2000 and 2004.

If it helps - here's a sample engineering job from 2003, no vac braked stock in evidence, though they are using bogie aggregate wagons as additional spoil carriers presumably as there still wasn't enough capacity in the AB engineers open fleet at that time?
http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Daybyday/2003/2003-10-11-Dawlish/

What's maybe harder to judge is whether any Barbel lasted that long, their capacity was good, but age and the relatively tall body might have counted against them a little, compared with more modern (bodied) vac brake wagons like Clam? You're probably down to looking at pics and train lists to try and work that out though. :(

 

(*Apart from conversions from Limpets, but they were already in use as departmental wagons so their later conversions wouldn't have affected the numbers of vac braked wagons in use...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

would you have ever seen ZKV and Grampus together on an engineers train?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes,you used to have inter yard engineers trains that would move anything between yards. There were workings between Tees and Tyne for example that would move odd wagons that had been outshopped from Thornaby and shoppers going the other way.

There were workings like this all over the country.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

would you have ever seen ZKV and Grampus together on an engineers train?

I would suspect a combination of the two on the same train going to an engineering site to load spoil would have been avoided where possible, on the Western Region at least wagons of similar capacity were kept together. This would have made it easier for engineering staff when loading the spoil and helped prevent overloading.

As Russ says, midweek transit moves to get wagons to or from repair or reposition stock ready for the next weekend often threw up more unusual combinations.

 

Here however is a spoil train at Berwick in 1988 that appears to be formed of one ZKV, 4 ZHVs (ex traffic 16t mins), and a raft of grampus,

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/11612344794/in/photolist-iG9ixh-e2uP17-5NnvKC-f4neEH-owFxqS-7ttt65-nvCrLi-nE14SR-eY6mTo-Dh2zqV-bJZW8i-9D5CTk-q1w4dv-oUfUqz-tfC6nE-dZJ76w-bpbKni-daLiAv-6esta5-9Wpxbg-ikPo5m-cTkVQE-oPB4Ts-pw2kWh-bw9Knv-k4wNTz-baM4DT-o2RsHK-bmRE8N-fjtJfK-nw7J7b-cFEQoS-pKWgEy-9rMKdF-o9hw4A-dy29M9-edc6Qc-konJ98-9Z5K7K-rbo8vK-8hxo1g-uYTSGG-bnfp8G-ikNLCa-dFoR6T-dTKx2n-fgk1VV-iohoDk-qBHfqu-dX8Uor

 

cheers

Edited by Rivercider
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi All

 

Is the Bachmann Iron ore tippler suitable for use as a ZKV Barbel please or is the underframe or axleboxes wrong?

 

Ian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.