ess1uk Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) may sound dumb, but, what's the difference between MSV & ZKV wagons? are these wagons similar or the same? i have one of each in my box of wagons but can't tell them apart would like to know what they are used for and if they can run together or not thanks Edited December 14, 2012 by ess1uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 Not much, they are one and the same MSV were iron ore/china clay tipplers, many of which were transferred to carry aggregates "Stone" http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ironoretipplermsv The code ZSV was used for the same wagons when transferred to the engineers departmental fleet http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/ironoretipplermsv/e35cefe2b Paul Bartlett 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 cheers Paul, thought it would be you who would answered first that would be why i can't tell them apart then problem solved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 MSV was the TOPS code given to 26t vac-fitted iron-ore/stone tipplers in traffic use. ZKV was the code given to these wagons when transferred to the Departmental fleet. They also sometimes carried the name 'Barbel'. ZKV was also used for the former MTV tipplers- these acquired the code 'Zander' 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted March 4, 2012 Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) Both types were much used in the south west where your layout is based I believe? MSVs were used for stone traffic from Foster Yeoman at Merehead, also ARC at Whatley, and Tytherington north of Bristol. Loading to Oxford/Botley/Theale/Appleford/Fareham amongst others. The shortest train I can remember would have been about 26 MSVs. Gradually they were turned over to the engineers during the 1980s. When they were in engineers use for loading spoil they worked out of Bristol East Depot , and later Westbury, to engineering locations all over the place, the spoil going to Stoke Gifford Tip. They also sometimes were used for loaded ballast out of Meldon Quarry. During this time they generally went to Bristol Barton Hill for maintenance, when they could be seen running in smaller numbers. cheers Edited March 4, 2012 by Rivercider 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted March 4, 2012 Author Share Posted March 4, 2012 (edited) ah the lovely Stoke Gifford tip, soon to be an IEP depot. cheers for the info looks like they can stay on the layout then Edited March 4, 2012 by ess1uk 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted March 8, 2012 Share Posted March 8, 2012 ZKV's the best spoil wagon ever. High capacity per unit length, and the sides were tall enough that the guard could not see how much you had put in them. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 What would usually be pulling these workings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted March 9, 2012 Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Locos used to haul MSV/ZKV would have been anything vacuum braked. My knowledge of the working is mostly WR Bristol division based. In the early 1980s the standard power for MSV stone trains from Tytherington would have been a single class 45/46/47 or a pair of 37s. The trains out of Merehead/Whatley were probably a 47 or pair of 37s. In the late 1980s when the wagons became ZKVs locos would have been 47s and increasingly 37s, by the 1990s class 37s would have been most likely. 47284 stands on the up reception at Westbury with a loaded train of MSVs from set 7627, 3/1/81. 45101 working Bristol area trip T82 waits on the up reception at Stoke Gifford with empty MSVs for Tytherington, this later became the site of the Royal Mail platform, and the carpark is now double decked, 10/7/85. cheers Edited March 9, 2012 by Rivercider 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted March 9, 2012 Author Share Posted March 9, 2012 cheers Rivercider Nice pictures Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted April 14, 2012 Author Share Posted April 14, 2012 Got another MSV for the collection today, but looking at the above pictures I'll need a few more. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shed Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 great pictures 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted September 30, 2012 Author Share Posted September 30, 2012 Good excuse to get a Peak, always liked them. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Would they usually run with a brake van on the rear? If so what type? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 16, 2013 Share Posted January 16, 2013 Would they usually run with a brake van on the rear? If so what type?Being fitted with vacuum brakes, they wouldn't normally need one if they were working as a block train. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Being fitted with vacuum brakes, they wouldn't normally need one if they were working as a block train. That's what I thought, but always best to check. Cheers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium James Makin Posted April 15, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 15, 2015 Picking up on this old thread, does anyone know when the last of the ZKV Barbel's disappeared from the network? I've seen 1999-dated photos of the wagons in use, did any linger on in service into the new Millenium? Thanks, James 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 Picking up on this old thread, does anyone know when the last of the ZKV Barbel's disappeared from the network? I've seen 1999-dated photos of the wagons in use, did any linger on in service into the new Millenium? Thanks, James When did EWS dispense with its Vac braked locos (31 & 37)? There was certainly a huge push to convert the MKA / MTA / Coalfish / ZCA by EWS and the Railtrack PNA 2 axle wagons to eliminate vacuum stock before the newer higher capacity Falcons etc were built. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted April 15, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 15, 2015 Picking up on this old thread, does anyone know when the last of the ZKV Barbel's disappeared from the network? I've seen 1999-dated photos of the wagons in use, did any linger on in service into the new Millenium? Thanks, James Hi James, Martyn has some photos that appear to be from 2004 so they were still around then. http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/Z-Tops-codes/ZKV-Barbel-and-Zander-spoil/i-pShcKHf/A Just found a shot that seems to be from 2010 - so, even if not in use, they were still lying around in some places! Thanks 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium James Makin Posted April 15, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 15, 2015 Thanks guys - I did have a feeling that the influx of rebuilt ballast wagons like the Coalfish & others helped EWS shed most of these though seeing those 2004 pictures is intriguing! Some of those shots do look like odd stabled wagons, so it would be very interesting to see if anyone has any notes of when they were last running on the mainline past '99. I do just love how much of an anachronism these old tipplers are against their newer surroundings, can definitely feel some interesting wagon projects coming on! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glorious NSE Posted April 15, 2015 Share Posted April 15, 2015 31s went all the way back in 2001 I think, 37s lasted with EWS till 2009/10 or so, after vac braked engineers trains had gone, keeping them was more to do with handling trains in the dwindling number of places that 66s weren't allowed.The pictured one at Exeter Riverside (which survived at least one wagon scrapping programme at Riverside by cunningly disguising itself as a bush!) is an escapee, by 2004 when I first shot it (and it's not moved between 2004 and 2010) I would judge that vac braked engineers workings in the south of England had finished, though there were reasonable numbers of survivors in the back corners of assorted yards.The PNA, MFA and MTA* fleets were mostly converted by the millenium, and by 2004 there must have been circa 500 Coalfish out there (and growing) too...I think there will have been an intentional run down to virtually zero between 2000 and 2004.If it helps - here's a sample engineering job from 2003, no vac braked stock in evidence, though they are using bogie aggregate wagons as additional spoil carriers presumably as there still wasn't enough capacity in the AB engineers open fleet at that time?http://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/Daybyday/2003/2003-10-11-Dawlish/What's maybe harder to judge is whether any Barbel lasted that long, their capacity was good, but age and the relatively tall body might have counted against them a little, compared with more modern (bodied) vac brake wagons like Clam? You're probably down to looking at pics and train lists to try and work that out though. (*Apart from conversions from Limpets, but they were already in use as departmental wagons so their later conversions wouldn't have affected the numbers of vac braked wagons in use...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 would you have ever seen ZKV and Grampus together on an engineers train? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted June 1, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2016 Yes,you used to have inter yard engineers trains that would move anything between yards. There were workings between Tees and Tyne for example that would move odd wagons that had been outshopped from Thornaby and shoppers going the other way. There were workings like this all over the country. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivercider Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) would you have ever seen ZKV and Grampus together on an engineers train? I would suspect a combination of the two on the same train going to an engineering site to load spoil would have been avoided where possible, on the Western Region at least wagons of similar capacity were kept together. This would have made it easier for engineering staff when loading the spoil and helped prevent overloading. As Russ says, midweek transit moves to get wagons to or from repair or reposition stock ready for the next weekend often threw up more unusual combinations. Here however is a spoil train at Berwick in 1988 that appears to be formed of one ZKV, 4 ZHVs (ex traffic 16t mins), and a raft of grampus, https://www.flickr.com/photos/96915808@N03/11612344794/in/photolist-iG9ixh-e2uP17-5NnvKC-f4neEH-owFxqS-7ttt65-nvCrLi-nE14SR-eY6mTo-Dh2zqV-bJZW8i-9D5CTk-q1w4dv-oUfUqz-tfC6nE-dZJ76w-bpbKni-daLiAv-6esta5-9Wpxbg-ikPo5m-cTkVQE-oPB4Ts-pw2kWh-bw9Knv-k4wNTz-baM4DT-o2RsHK-bmRE8N-fjtJfK-nw7J7b-cFEQoS-pKWgEy-9rMKdF-o9hw4A-dy29M9-edc6Qc-konJ98-9Z5K7K-rbo8vK-8hxo1g-uYTSGG-bnfp8G-ikNLCa-dFoR6T-dTKx2n-fgk1VV-iohoDk-qBHfqu-dX8Uor cheers Edited June 1, 2016 by Rivercider 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianwales Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Hi All Is the Bachmann Iron ore tippler suitable for use as a ZKV Barbel please or is the underframe or axleboxes wrong? Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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