Dapol working signals review

[BlackRat]

Rather than whine, grizzle and criticise, I applaud Dapol for their innovation and forethought.

 

Have no doubts, their product development will keep ahead and no doubt future versions may well change.

 

Like I have said before, you can find fault with anything if you look hard enough.

 

Simple matter is if you don't like, don't buy, its really is as simple as that.

[S.A.C Martin]

There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism, if it's presented in a fair manner.

 

Both sides of the debate could have been less antagonistic in their approach.

 

It's exasperating as when the next model for whatever company comes out that might or does have some shortfalls, and someone does write a detailed, fair assessment, whatever that might contain will simply be decried because it's fashionable to complain about complaining.

 

I am all for giving credit when it is due, and Dapol have stepped into an open market - fair play to them. But the role of the consumer and feedback is an important one that should have a mutual understanding and respect for each other's position. Honesty and critical assessments are inherently good things, but equally that does not mean it has to come laced with pejoratives too.

[beast66606]

There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism, if it's presented in a fair manner.

 

I've not commented on the "debate" however the "side" pointing out their modifications has done so quite a few times, the message was received and understood the first time. To then admit they have little interest in the product does not actually help the cause, so a robust response it only to be expected.

 

There is nothing stopping anyone doing a better job - using THEIR money - it's always easy to dismiss costs when it's not your money on the line.

[S.A.C Martin]

I've not commented on the "debate" however the "side" pointing out their modifications has done so quite a few times, the message was received and understood the first time. To then admit they have little interest in the product does not actually help the cause, so a robust response it only to be expected.

 

I do agree that one side of the debate has not helped himself or the debate; but neither side needs to rally to each other's causes with a "robust response". Letting it continue in an unpleasant manner does no one any favours. Unlike other debates where it's more a case of conflicting opinions expressed robustly, it's the robustly personal response here which I find distasteful.

 

There is nothing stopping anyone doing a better job - using THEIR money - it's always easy to dismiss costs when it's not your money on the line.

 

I don't believe I was advocating that.

[iL Dottore]

Aren't we forgetting something critical in this (and similar) thread? That we are railway modellers.

 

To me, that means if a manufacturer produces a product that is (in my eyes) about 95% there, I will use my modelling skills to get the product as close as I can to the 100% I'd wish for. I'd also share my experiences with my fellow modellers on RMWeb.

 

I for one am looking forward to Dapol's 4mm GWR signals (I need quite a few). The fact that the signal - out of the box - will be pristine and require weathering "comes with the territory". I may decide to replace the plastic signal arm with a thinner brass etch or maybe not and if Dapol's switching works for me - great! If not, I'll find a work around that does satisfy me. Whatever I'll do, it'll all be part of my modelling.

 

F

[buffalo]

Aren't we forgetting something critical in this (and similar) thread? That we are railway modellers...

Oh dear, don't start that one again Much as I might agree with you, it's been said many times before that we are a broad church ranging from those who will be satisfied by drilling a hole and inserting one of these signals to those who decide they are not what they need and will continue to scratch build* make their own.

 

Nick

 

* another potentially inflammatory term deleted

Edited May 15, 2012 by buffalo

[PLD]

To sumarise:

• Dapol have stepped into an unfulfilled gap in the market with a new product. [i think all can agree this is a positive]
  
• Dapol have chosen to implement the simplest possible control system to enable the product to be worked by those with the most basic of knowledge of electronics [thereby maximising the potential market and keeping unit costs down]
  
• MERG have designed a replacement control board which satisfies those with more complex control requirements (and should be no trouble for the self-proclaimed electronics experts to fit) [therefore all modellers can have the signals controlled in the way they want]
  

Have I missed anything??

 

I find it ironic that those proclaiming themselves to be 'electronics experts' and to 'know how to do it better' (so should have the skills to adapt the Dapol product) are the ones who are most vocally objecting to having to put in some effort to adapt it to suit their own particular needs...

[Geoff Endacott]

I think the control system is terrible. True modellers know that signals should only be operated by levers. I can't understand why Dapol didn't do the job properly and devise a system of miniature wires, pulleys and levers. Surely it would not have been too difficult to come up with a 2mm scale signal box complete with working levers. Real modellers could then have operated the signals properly by pushing a fine stick through the signal box window.

 

We obviously have a lot of work ahead to make the five signals which have been bought for the club layout work realistically.

 

Geoff Endacott

Edited May 15, 2012 by Geoff Endacott

[Andy Y]

Pack it in Geoff, some people will think you're being serious.

 

PLD's made an excellent summary on which point I think that those issues should be laid to rest.

[cromptonnut]

Poking a cocktail stick through the windows to operate minature levers? Surely we should be able to use nanotechnology to make a working DCC controlled 2mm scale signalman that can be connected to a PC. f1 to make tea, f2 to make coffee, f3 to add milk, f4 to add sugar... the options are endless.

[ThaneofFife]

In the words of Jim Smith Wright (or maybe he got it from Geoff!), why model what you cant see and that was in reference to 4mm stuff.

 

Working pulleys, wires and levers - what on 2mm? So what next, perhaps a working clock hanging up on the wall in the signalbox or a 2mm WC that flushes if you press F7 !

[whiteswan]

Poking a cocktail stick through the windows to operate minature levers? Surely we should be able to use nanotechnology to make a working DCC controlled 2mm scale signalman that can be connected to a PC. f1 to make tea, f2 to make coffee, f3 to add milk, f4 to add sugar... the options are endless.

 

Although I'm successfully using the signals with DCC (see my previous post) this has given me the idea to use some of the Peco PL-26 passing contact lever switches for the branch line mounted near the signalled area, this will then satisfy any manual operators who like to see and use levers, then I'll have the best of both worlds. ;-)

 

Caz

[The Stationmaster]

As a signalman, would you not expect your lever positions to directly reflect the signals you control with no doubt or uncertainty?

 

Does this mean that 'prototype' signalmen have always had line of sight to every signal they controlled? I find that hard to believe.

 

Here, alas, are two places where I wondered if you understood prototype signal operation or were just on some sort of 'electronic crusade' against the course chosen - for seemingly good reasons - by Dapol. Any 'true enthusiast' would, as already pointed out by Beast, have known the answer to both, and presumably the circuit you are proposing will work perfectly every time for years to come and incorporates an arm and lamp repeater for a signal which is out of sight of the operator? If it doesn't incorporate such facilities how do you know if it has responded to a control input - in other words it would surely be no better than having to look at the signal to ensure that it has responded?

 

As a matter of interest I do wonder just how often on how many layouts semaphore signals are likely to be out of sight of their operator? I have more than a suspicion that once folk start to populate their layouts with working signals they will take more than a little pleasure in watching them work as it will have quite a novelty value for them.

 

PS As an aside I have - over more than a few years involvement with such things - known more than a few signals which did not come off when the lever was pulled and a few which did not go back when the lever was replaced; that's why the working of signals has to be observed by those working them.

[coachmann]

Aren't we forgetting something critical in this (and similar) thread? That we are railway modellers...

Oh dear, don't start that one again

RMweb might as well be an impotent debating society if we outlaw the term modeller for fear of upsetting some sensitive soul... On the topic of Dapol signals, when can we expect to see images of the 4mm scale signals? Edited May 15, 2012 by coachmann

[nt_manbeer]

I have a couple of the Dapol signal, and they seem very good. Thanks are due, IMHO, to Dapol for producing them.

 

Having read through this thread, I have a couple of opinions to express.

 

FIrstly, the question of variants of signals. Whilst it seems that Dapol are receptive to bringing out more types, it has got to be inevitable that not everyone is going to be able to get their ideal signal - the potential market would not justify Dapol's outlay. As someone else says, if we get single post, left and right brackets, in all the Big Four railways, we should consider ourselves lucky! Personally, I'd also like to see three way bracket and combined Home/Distant. In GWR, of course

 

Secondly, the vexed question of control. As someone who intends to use DCC to control them, personally I would have preferred some way of selecting a particular aspect (on or off). As the system has a power input and a single input to trigger a flip-flop inside it, it can not have been much of a job to have made the input drive the signal state directly, rather than via the flip-flop. I'm imagining that the chip in the signal base will be some sort of micro-controller like a PIC chip, and so a firmware change would have made the signal work differently, at very little cost.

 

Yes, it appears that MERG have produced a different PCB that works in the more DCC friendly way. However, it is because I don't want to spend hours on each signal that I welcome the arrival of a RTP product. I do have the skills to do it, but why would I want to spend my spare time doing what I do all day at work?

 

BUT, having said all that, I would not want to berate Dapol for having produced what they have. I will be able to use a relay on the output of an accessory decoder as someone previously has said they have done successfully. So no big deal, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Who knows, maybe if Dapol sell thousands of these things, some British company like CML Electronics will produce a decoder specially for the job!

 

And yes, with semaphore signals, the signalman is supposed to observe that the signal is showing the correct aspect after he/she moves a lever. Things like the temperature of the day rooutinely effect the mechanical system by allowing the wire to expand or contract. If the signal is out of view from the signalbox, because of an intervening overbridge, for example, then a repeater is fitted to the signal arm that displays the signal aspect in the signalbox. On colour light signals, the same thing is always done by checking the current through the signal lamp (this also detects a "bulb gone").

 

Cheers

Chris

[beast66606]

On colour light signals, the same thing is always done by checking the current through the signal lamp (this also detects a "bulb gone").

 

Normally "first filament failure". first.

[buffalo]

Normally "first filament failure". first.

Could you expand on this, please? Does this mean there are multiple filaments/bulbs per aspect? What happens with the modern LED types?

 

Nick

[beast66606]

Could you expand on this, please? Does this mean there are multiple filaments/bulbs per aspect? What happens with the modern LED types?

 

Nick

 

Yes (but lamps )

 

I *think* LEDs emulate the same functionality, i.e. a percentage of failures gives a FFF error, and eventually enough failures give a lamp out error.

[buffalo]

Thanks, and for the clarification that incandescent thingies are still called lamps. Apologies for the diversion, now back to working semaphores.

 

Nick

Edited May 16, 2012 by buffalo

[Fay Singpoint]

I *think* LEDs emulate the same functionality, i.e. a percentage of failures gives a FFF error, and eventually enough failures give a lamp out error.

 

The Dorman LED signals don't but other types (i.e. VMS) do.

[cheshepe]

Having exhibited our micro layout Hartley with the NGS mini stand at Manchester MRX this weekend, I can confidently state that Dapol will do well with these signals regardless of the negative comments posted on this forum. The average modeller wants signals that will work and look reasonable but they must also take a few knocks here and there. We had loads of queries regarding the Dapol signals and all comments were positive. We need to remember that Dapol, Hornby, Bachmann et al need to cater for the average Joe Soap who is new to the hobby and they don't just cater for a few serious enthusiasts who want all singing and dancing controls tied to a laptop.

 

In our experience many modellers are frightened to fit a plug in decoder never mind understanding advanced control systems. I have lost count of the number of times that I have renumbered a DCC loco for visitors to shows who cannot read an address. This is why I suspect that Dapol decided to keep things simple.

 

I have made a good number of scale N gauge signals, complete with lenses and working LED lamps. However they take an age to built from brass and, because they are true scale, are easily damaged. I won't hesitate to use Dapol signals wherever we require single arm home or distants. On the club's exhibition layouts I plan to replace the arms with MSE components and to add additional home made limit switches on the unused side of the 'actuator arm' for feedback to the control panels. It will still be faster than building from brass and result in a stronger signal. True, it will make the warranty invalid but so does weathering and fitting hard wired decoders to my locos!

 

I am sure that those who desperately want feedback will find a means of doing so. If not, we can always scratch build our own signals!

[ian b]

And yes, with semaphore signals, the signalman is supposed to observe that the signal is showing the correct aspect after he/she moves a lever. Things like the temperature of the day rooutinely effect the mechanical system by allowing the wire to expand or contract. If the signal is out of view from the signalbox, because of an intervening overbridge, for example, then a repeater is fitted to the signal arm that displays the signal aspect in the signalbox. On colour light signals, the same thing is always done by checking the current through the signal lamp (this also detects a "bulb gone").

 

Cheers

Chris

 

Lets not forget that if the signaller is unable to check their own signals and they are visible to the next 'box then that signaller must keep an eye out to check that it returns to the 'on' position- I reckon there's scope for teamwork at exhibitions here. Block instruments between one layout and the next anyone...?

[DapolDave]

Hi chaps,

 

Just been informed that the OO gauge signals have gone to our freight forwarder in China fo airfreighting to the UK.

 

They should be in the shops late next week, and hopefully i'll take some to DEMU for sale as well.

 

Cheers

Dave

[PaulRhB]

Great, at least they'll be easier to see at a distance . . . .

 

 

[Kris]

Just noticed that Dapol have posted (Thursday 24th May) on Facebook that the 4mm signals are on their way to the shops.

 

OO signals are now in stock and will be sent to stockists soon