Ellerby - 4mm/OO gauge - All photos working, hotlinked.

[Barry O]

Jamie

 

A trip to Halfords or the range will get you some primer/undercoat. I have stopped using etched primer as it seems to make no difference to final paint finishes so long as you get the surface to be primed clean.

 

The connecting rods can be soldered tohether off the loco. Use the poppies jig or greased pins to centre them.. then soldrr down the edges before a quick clean up with a file.

 

Looks a nice loco though.

 

Baz

[St Enodoc]

1 minute ago, Barry O said:

A trip to Halfords or the range will get you some primer/undercoat. I have stopped using etched primer as it seems to make no difference to final paint finishes so long as you get the surface to be primed clean.

 

I use a grey etching primer spray from the car shop. I find that it helps a lot with brass, particularly at the edges.

[mark axlecounter]

I have been watching your thread with interest Jamie, your work on the locos are very detailed (not many people can do that). 
keep up the stunning work I am enjoying your work, not just the locos but your buildings are stunning to. 
 

Mark Towers 

[Jamiel]

Thanks for the replies.
 

I have used Halfords grey primer and a normal primer from Phoenix Precision before on the DMUs and carriage I built. I found that the Halfords primer had quite a heavy grain to it and the Phoenix primer was gave a much smoother finish, however, the Phoenix primer did run much more easily. Definitely one to use with multiple very thin coats.
 

I did find with the DMU’s that I used the normal Phoenix primer on that it was easy to chip the edges when putting the bodies on and off. That was less so with the Halfords.
 

I have ordered a spray can of Phoenix Etch primer and I just want to give it a try, but will use it in very thin coats and build up. I could even use a first layer or two of etch primer and then perhaps a final layer of the normal. I’ll see. The etch primer has a shelf life, so may be best to just use on its won and use up before it goes off.
 

Mark, thank you for your comments on detailing models, that is something I really enjoy. When modelling I always have a computer screen open with a couple of dozen image to refer to. I also really like the junk around engines, buildings (and my work room) that to me makes thing feel real and lived in (lived in too much according to my partner). That is why my locos have fire irons on the back, my buildings junction boxes and cabling from them going through windows, stink pipes for the sewerage down pipes, and there will be some litter, old boxes, tubs, buckets around when the layout is gets finally built.

 

Those are the good things, now for the bad.

 

Annoyed with the frame of the tank engine, or to more accurate annoyed with my lack of experience in building working frames.

 

I tried to run it and the wheels are not running easily. I have taken off the connecting rods and tried running it by hand along a track, still not too free. I took the pickups back, and that helped. 0.45mm nickel silver wire. I have pulled it back a little so it is just touching, but even then, it gives a little drag.
 

I have also found that as with my Comet Black 5, the centre wheel is very slightly higher, and I can only think that this must have something to do with my Poppy’s jig as they were both built on that. Not badly, gut enough on both that when just running without the connecting rods that middle wheel (drive wheel for the Black 5) only turns through friction when I press a little more. Perhaps there is some technique to using the Poppy’s jig, or perhaps mine has too much give for the outside bars. Perhaps it is a poor workman blaming tools!
 

The motor is getting power fine, and working well when not connected to the drive cog. Connected it worked at high power but heated up and the running isn’t smooth, so too much friction for it to overcome. It was heating up too, so I stopped trying to get it to force the wheels round.
 

I have not tried it again with the pickups in place and the connecting rods off on the track. I have had enough for one night, and there is a bottle of wine in the kitchen to share.
 

It is so near to working that it is very annoying, and I think it is better than the Black 5. I do think that I have done much better than the Black 5, and will get that out to rework.

My major feeling is that as with what I teach at university, that although you can read a lot, watch tutorials on-line, to rally learn some difficult, that you need to sit down with an expert.
 

I find building motion, wheels and pickups very hard (obviously) and if I were sat with an experienced model builder they will say, just make that hole a little looser, or tighten that up, or take that off and check it is straight, or maybe it just needs lubricating. This is a major reason why model railway clubs exist, to pass on expertise, and they are cheaper than the annual fee for a degree course. Tempted to leave the chassis alone now and go and visit someone to get the two chassis working when lockdown is all over. Basically, I think I need a master class in chassis building.

 

Barry, Tony Wright, Mike Edge, LMRS, I will come cash in hand!

 

Anyway, there is abottle of wine waiting to relax me in the other room and a voice has just shouted the time to me from there.

 

Again, thank for all the replies, suggestions and likes.

Jamie

 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Jamiel

[lezz01]

Jamie it sounds very much like the gears aren't meshing properly. What gearbox did you use? Can you post a video of it running please? 

Regards Lez. 

[Jamiel]

Thanks Lez.

I think I got the gearbox from the London Road Models stand at the York show in 2019. I'll post some stills and try get a video. It could well be that, I just assumed it was the wheels, but that is why I think I need help from someone with experience.

Jamie

[Barry O]

Kjamie

 

You are always welcome when lockdown is done. Do nor be disheartened at all. It took me a while to get my first complete loco (a Nucast Q6) to work.

 

Finish painting the body. For thectime being it can sit on the chassis until we can help you.

 

Baz

[lezz01]

I've just looked through the photos Jamie.

One thing jumps out at me straight away is the fact that it looks like you have the worm gear on the axel the wrong way around. It seems that the edge of the worm gear is in line with the center of the worm. The center of the worm gear should be in line with the center of the worm. It's certainly off center in the gearbox and it should be in the center of the gearbox not off to one side as it appears to be. It won't run properly like that mate. It might run after a fashion but it sure as heck won't run well. Hopefully that is the cause of the problem. Try that first and if not you're going to have to strip some bits off and get back to basics where it will run and start refitting the bits till it stops running and then the last thing you fitted will be the problem. Take a good look at the gearbox first though because that looks like the issue to me from your photos.

Regards Lez.     

[Jamiel]

Lez and Barry thanks again.
 

Some good news.

Lez I think you might have been right. I had one the below before I saw your second reply, but it seems like it was the sitting of the drive cogs verses the worm.
 

I tried the wheels with no cogs or connecting rods and they turned fine, so I put the drive cog ack on the back axel, at first it was stiff, so I hand turned the motor and it freed up. I think that the drive cog was sitting badly for the worm. The gearbox is very simple, just a worm on the motor and a drive cog.
 

The drive cog is pretty snug to the axel, so I haven’t put the grub screw back in yet. I also adjusted the pickups to not be as tight to the wheels.
 

Here it is after reseating it all.

 

I ran it on my yard of track, it was OK, even at slow speed, although not enough grip from just the back wheels, of a lot of slipping.

 

Next, I put on just the back connecting rods (actually fortunate to have the separate at the moment), so back and middle wheels running connected. It ran really well.
 

I then put on the remaining halves of the connecting rods. It runs 80% or better as well as before, but quite as free. Still runs pretty well. Just needed a couple of nudges to get it running out of about a dozen runs.

 

None of the connecting rods have their washers soldered over them at the moment, so they have side play. I really don’t think I had soldered a rod to the crank, I think that would have just locked.

 

So my thoughts are. The front parts of the connecting rods could have their holes widened just a tiny bit to give them play to prevent the slight loss off fluidity. If the works, then I should solder the connecting rod front and back halves together, and then fit the washers to hold them all in place.

 

 

 

Run the loco between every single addition to check that soldering is not causing any stickiness.
 

Off to bed, but feeling better about it, and many thanks or the replies.

Jamie

Edited January 30, 2021 by Jamiel

[lezz01]

The center line worm is still as near as damn it right on the edge of the worm gear Jamie the centerline of the motor shaft and worm needs to be on the centerline of the toothed part of the worm gear it'll never run properly until it is. Also did you file a flat on the axle? You need a flat on the axle or it will push the worm gear out of true on the axle.

Regards Lez.

  

[Barry O]

And fit phosphor bronz3 pick ups.. nickel silver ones were abandoned by Leeds MRS many moons ago. The phosphor bronze ones are less likely to drag on the wheels.

 

Baz

[Jamiel]

Thanks for all the advice, I have moved along a bit thank to the feedback.
 

Update on the gearbox and motion.
 

First here is the gearbox and its parts. I filed the drive cog back a little bit on the grub screw side and got the washers from the etch.

 

It is tight, but there is room to move the drive cog so it is more centered.

 

Off the frame with two M4 washers from B&Q in there as well as adding a washer from teh gearbox fret, it is much more centered.

 

All of the above in the frame. No connecting rods, it runs OK like this even at very low speeds, but just the one set of heels is not enough to move the loco, they tend to spin.

 

 

With just the back connecting rods in place it runs, fine at medium & fast, at slow it runs but is uneven, and at crawl it stops/jams at the position shown. Left 8 O’clock, right 6 O’clock.
 

It runs better, virtually no bind, forwards, but back wards it binds. When the motor starts there is a liny (obviously less than the thread width) motion from the motor and worn before the drive cog moves.

 

With both front and back motion, it is the same, and the front motion runs OK moved by fingers or run along the track.
 

The washers have not been soldered over so that I can keep testing it, and I have not yet soldered the front and back rods together.
 

When I run it without anything to hold the rods in place they work their way outwards and off eventually.
 

So, questions:
 

Should I open out the holes in the rods a little on the back rods a tiny bit?
 

Leave it as is, but let it have a good run in on a track, I would need to solder the washers over and the rods together, and set up a circular track in the garage (I don’t have the layout working at the moment).
 

Add some lubrication? The presumably do the above.
 

Try adjusting the motor position tighter so that there is less give between the worm and drive cog?
 

Leave it until I can take it to someone who really knows what they are doing?

 

For the moment I will leave the pickups as they are. Barry it is interesting what you said about phosphor bronze, I have some, and it can be fitted later as the pickup pads are easily accessible even with the loco fully assembled.
 

I used the nickel silver following Tony Wright’s advice in his DVD on loco building, but he tend to build LNER locos, and from what I have seen the chassis don’t have the springs dropped down adjacent to the wheels, so he can sit his pickups at a much gentler angle.
 

He only has pickups one side as well, so half the drag, as he uses a live chassis. With pickups both sides and the sharper angle, so less give on them for a LMS r L&Y engine, it would appear that the end result is greater friction and so the choice of phosphor bronze might be much wiser.
 

Maybe I should post that on Wright Writes and ask of people have different experiences with pickups for LMS and DCC builds.

 

There is a huge improvement over yesterday, but as it is a small tank engine it would be good to get it working at very slow speeds so that it can do shunting on the layout.
 

Again, thank you for all your help.

Jamie

Edited January 30, 2021 by Jamiel

[MJI]

Precision etch primer is great, get it, but do not paint anything else first.

 

The 119 and E1883 are primed with it.

[Barry O]

jamie

 

put some blu tack on the crankpins in place of the washers for now. (small bits of wire insulation or rubber tube also works.

 

Check that the crankpins are straight.

 

We stopped using Nickel Silver pick ups over 30 years ago.. Nickel Silver is very old fashioned and .. it squeaks which means it causes drag. Tony has already had a bit of feedback from others.. he knows my feelings on the matter. A loco he built has a runner wagon on Grantham.. the nickel silver pick ups squeak .. and he will never stop telling people to use Nickel Silver.

 

Did you file a "flat" on the driving axle for the worm gear grub screw? it helps the gears. Be careful adjusting the meshing though.. you can end up with a pile of brass and worn gear wheels. Try adding some GT85 spray lubricant on teh gears and axles.. it helps it all to run mores smoothly. (you can get it in Morrisons or DiY shops)

 

Baz

 

 

[leopardml2341]

2 hours ago, Jamiel said:

With just the back connecting rods in place it runs, fine at medium & fast, at slow it runs but is uneven, and at crawl it stops/jams at the position shown. Left 8 O’clock, right 6 O’clock.

Is that true, shouldn't the right hand wheelset 'lead' the left when looking forward, and shouldn't they be 90° apart (quartering) thus being 9 & 6 O'clock?

 

Or have I misunderstood what you said?

 

 

[Jamiel]

Thanks MJI, I will post the results of the primer when it arrives.
 

Barry, I did file a flat on the drive axel, I forgot to mention and photograph that. I will have a look to check the crank pins are straight. I didn’t think that they could do anything other than right themselves, but perhaps cross threading might be an issue. I did find that at first when running they unscrewed sometimes, so I made sure they were tightened up.

 

I will redo the pickups, but for testing these ones are working right now.

 

I have a tube of loco lubricant I bought when I first got into modelling, but never used it. Not sure where it is, so I will try and get some GT85.
 

Leopardml2341, you are right, it is 9 and 6 O'clock, my typing isn’t as good as my quartering, and being Markits wheels, 8 & 6 O'clock is not an option, Sorry.
 

I asked in the prototype thread about left and right hand lead, as LMS engines are left hand lead, so I went with that for the L&Y being a constituent company. The replies were not conclusive, other than go and look at the persevered one, but that is right across the other end of Yorkshire, or even in Lancashire and given lockdown not really an option. Someone did point out that you can’t see both sides at once, so not a huge problem.
 

I’ll post any update as I work on it more.
 

Thanks again for the replies.
 

Jamie

Edited January 30, 2021 by Jamiel

[Jamiel]

I’m getting nearer to getting it working, or at least isolating the issue.

I ran the motor without connecting rods, with the drive (back) wheels hanging off the track, and at very slow speed get the same resistance to the movement in part of the turn.

 

I wonder if I have packed too many washers in next to the drive cog, or if somehow the worm and cog don’t fully mesh at all angles.
 

I will break it down later, or maybe tomorrow morning and see if I can isolate the reason.
 

It doesn’t appear to be the connecting rods, which I think I have a paranoia of getting wrong.
 

Any thoughts in the meantime? I am very grateful for all the advice given.
 

Jamie

PS. I posted on Tony Wright’s thread about doing the pickups, sorry Barry, but it will be interesting to see what people say.

[lezz01]

Jamie. You can get it centered more by filing a little meat off of the Worm gear grub screw boss. Don't take it too far but you can reduce the boss by around 1-1.5mm at least so you can get a washer in on the grub screw side of the gearwheel. It's already much much better but the boss on the worm gear will stand a fair bit of reducing before you break through the screw thread and even if you do you can fix the gear wheel to the axle with loctite threadlocker or UV activated glue/super glue without causing any issues. You also need to set the motor correctly so that the worm isn't tight against the worm gear. The way to do this is to place a bit of either cigarette paper, I would go with the red one's, or use kitchen foil, between the gear and the worm and then tighten up the motor mounting screws. just do the top one first then remove the axle and gear wheel to get at the bottom one. Then reassemble the axle and gear wheel in the mount and run it back and forth with a little toothpaste on the worm till it beds in, then clean it all off thoroughly then add a little oil and repeat running it back and forth. Then put it all back in the frames and lube everything up and see how it runs. Just make sure you get all the toothpaste off. If you don't want to use toothpaste then use metal polish instead.

Regards Lez.

Edited January 30, 2021 by lezz01

[Jamiel]

Thanks Lezz

I have filed it back by about 1/2mm, but I think you are right, there is more that can go. I will make the washers less packed in as well to make sure they are not causing friction.

Jamie

[lezz01]

Jamie I've edited my last post and added a bit more for you to do as well.

Lez.

[Jamiel]

Thanks Lezz

I will go back and read it fully later.

Anyway, success, it is running evenly, without the rods attached and with the rods to the centre wheels attached.

I will try the other options later to the front wheels. I have to get my 10 year old daughter to bed, so have immediate priorities.

I took out the washes and just let the grub screw hold the drive cog in position. I had also not filed it quite evenly, so I think that plus the washers was making the drive cog rub in part of the turn. That must be why it ran fine yesterday, but not today without the rods.
 

I have filed the drive cog right down to the edge of the grub screw hole, and make sure it is even, and it is working fine now.

I’ll post later when I have done the tests.

Many thanks again to everyone for the help.

Jamie

[Mrkirtley800]

I use the  plastic covering from insulated wire to hold coupling rods in place.  The wire insulation I use is from the earth wire from a bit of house mains wire cut into thin slices.

Actually,  some of my locos have run for years with the rods held in place this way.   If they work loose a bit of UHU or Evostick will sort the problem, or a bit of fresh insulation.  No need for any soldering.

Derek

Edited January 30, 2021 by Mrkirtley800

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, lezz01 said:

Jamie. You can get it centered more by filing a little meat off of the Worm gear grub screw boss.

 

3 hours ago, Jamiel said:

I have filed the drive cog right down to the edge of the grub screw hole

 

I don't build many locos but the need to do this seems to me to be a major flaw in the gearbox design.

[lezz01]

31 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

I don't build many locos but the need to do this seems to me to be a major flaw in the gearbox design.

Well yes and no mate. I don't think that the gearset was designed to be used with this motor mount. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with either of them they just weren't designed for each other. I think they are ultrascale gears but I think they would go better with a D11 style motor than a mashima. Hey ho we go with what he's used and hopefully he can get it all working. There are some things you can do to mitigate against issues with worm gears that have a large screw boss on one side it's just a case of taking a good look at it and seeing what is not right and then sorting it out from there. I was an engineer back in the day and I also have a knack with mechanical things so there aren't many things I can't get going. 

Regards Lez.      

[Jamiel]

1 hour ago, St Enodoc said:

 

 

I don't build many locos but the need to do this seems to me to be a major flaw in the gearbox design.

I suspect that the gearbox was designed for EM, or P4 which would have easily accommodated the drive cog as was.

Fortunately, it is working now, and I have even got the connecting rods soldered together, and the washers over to fit them on. I have yet to cut off the excess/ends of the crank pins.

I will post some photos and also finish the crank pins if I am feeling brave enough tomorrow.

Jamie

Edited January 31, 2021 by Jamiel