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Ellerby - 4mm/OO gauge - All photos working, hotlinked.


Jamiel
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27 minutes ago, lezz01 said:

Well yes and no mate. I don't think that the gearset was designed to be used with this motor mount. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with either of them they just weren't designed for each other. I think they are ultrascale gears but I think they would go better with a D11 style motor than a mashima. Hey ho we go with what he's used and hopefully he can get it all working. There are some things you can do to mitigate against issues with worm gears that have a large screw boss on one side it's just a case of taking a good look at it and seeing what is not right and then sorting it out from there. I was an engineer back in the day and I also have a knack with mechanical things so there aren't many things I can't get going. 

Regards Lez.      

 

Thanks Lez

Just seen your reply. I have been told that some of the models from London Road Models have different lineages, so I may have been recommended a gearbox by them that was not what was planned for in the original design. I was also recommended that motor, it is just the right size to fit in the chassis, but again the combination might not be ideal.
 

Perhaps rather than gearboxes fitting certain kits, what gauge they will be used for might be of equal consideration.
 

The good thing is that I have learnt a huge amount about the drives of kit locos in the last day, especially thanks to you Lez, and also Barry. I don’t mind doing this sort of thing. I was very disheartened when to was just put the motor in and let it run, but now I am more knowledgeable about the whole process, it is a better result.
 

I think my next job will be to get out my Comet Black 5 and apply this new knowledge to that chassis and hopefully get that loco running too. It had the same issues, but they were worse and it jammed fully rather than just binding a bit. I think the axels might not be parallel on that one, same height, but just not perpendicular to the chassis.
 

Looking ahead, another project will be a 6 car Trans Pennine DMU, and having the seen the fantastic motor bogies Mike Edge has done for some of his diesel locos, I am tempted to try that route, as it would fit lower down the body than the Replica Chassis I have used before.

Time to think on that one.

Jamie

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I like to use compensation or springing if it's been designed into a kit Jamie. I'm also happy to go without it if it isn't. It's actually easier to build a chassis with compensation or springing than to build it rigid. If it's rigid then you have to make sure the frames are square and the axles parallel. I'm also looking forward to building some chassis with CSBs instead of compensation as it's easier to do than beam compensation for 8 or 10 coupled locos. If I had been building that loco I would have gone with either a simple beam compensation with a fixed rear axle or a CSB system with springs from guitar strings of about 8 or 10 thou but then I have jigs to make building both the frames and hornblock fiting easier.

Regards Lez.

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7 hours ago, lezz01 said:

I like to use compensation or springing if it's been designed into a kit Jamie. I'm also happy to go without it if it isn't. It's actually easier to build a chassis with compensation or springing than to build it rigid. If it's rigid then you have to make sure the frames are square and the axles parallel. I'm also looking forward to building some chassis with CSBs instead of compensation as it's easier to do than beam compensation for 8 or 10 coupled locos. If I had been building that loco I would have gone with either a simple beam compensation with a fixed rear axle or a CSB system with springs from guitar strings of about 8 or 10 thou but then I have jigs to make building both the frames and hornblock fiting easier.

Regards Lez.

Les

 

Compensation is to sort out uneven track ..of you don't build a square and flat chassis the compensation doesn't really solve the inability to build one.. it just masks the problem.

 

All of my latest locos are built in my poppy's jig. None of them have a centre axle higher than the other two.  This "ruse" was used by some manufacturers as they  reckoned it made it easier to get  the loco round tighter curves.

 

@Jamie.. High Level gearboxes have an easy to use process for selecting gearboxes (and motors) other website.

Perhaps you could try asking Mike Edge for some help. He has built a lot more locos (and designed a lot of kits) than Tony Wright

 

It is a shame we can't have club meetings.. the knowledge available in Leeds MRS is huge.

 

Baz

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3 hours ago, Barry O said:

Les

 

Compensation is to sort out uneven track ..of you don't build a square and flat chassis the compensation doesn't really solve the inability to build one.. it just masks the problem.

 

All of my latest locos are built in my poppy's jig. None of them have a centre axle higher than the other two.  This "ruse" was used by some manufacturers as they  reckoned it made it easier to get  the loco round tighter curves.

 

@Jamie.. High Level gearboxes have an easy to use process for selecting gearboxes (and motors) other website.

Perhaps you could try asking Mike Edge for some help. He has built a lot more locos (and designed a lot of kits) than Tony Wright

 

It is a shame we can't have club meetings.. the knowledge available in Leeds MRS is huge.

 

Baz

I quite agree Baz. 

I'm not a fan of the big frame jigs like poppy's there are better jigs than that. The point of springing/compensation is to keep all of the wheels on the track all of the time. It helps with uneven track and just as importantly current collection. As for some manufactures having the center wheel higher than the others it's the most stupid Idea I've ever come across. If a loco won't go around a tight curve then either make the curve with a bigger radius or don't run a loco that won't run round curves like that. You will never get an 8F with scale wheels around set track curves. That's why RTR manufacturers didn't put flanges on center wheels. The only prototype loco built without flanges on the center wheels were the BR 9Fs as far as I know. Maybe the decapod but I don't know that for sure as it's not my railway of interest.

The thing is real loco frames flex a bit, model loco frames don't because they are rigid and we don't design lateral flexing into them. It's all to do with mass and Newton's 1st and 2nd laws of motion. People think that flanges on railway wheels are to keep them on the track but that is an erroneous assumption. Railway vehicles are kept on the track by the cone of the wheel and the inclination of the track both 1 in 20 I believe. The flanges are there to make sure the vehicles follow the set path at places where the track diverges ie. points and crossing not to keep them on the rails.

The way to get locos around tighter than scale curves is to give the center drivers a bit of sideways movement. and build in a bit of slop. This mimics the flexing real locos have in their frame. Have you noticed that a 10 year old loco runs better than a brand new one? That's because it's run in and has worn itself a bit of slop into the mechanism. Run them in first and ream the barings a bit, just a little on the outside axles and quite a bit more on the center axles, build a little slop into them to start with, run them in properly and you will have a nicely running loco from the start. You have to run in a new car don't you? Why is a model mechanism treated any differently?

Regards Lez.          

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With many thanks to everyone who has given advice, and brought up chassis building. Especially Lez, Barry, Mike Edge, those who responded on Wright Writes and a lovely evening on-line with the Leeds Model Railway Society.

I now have the Class 23 running OK. I think it will need a little lubrication and running in properly, but it runs at slow speeds, in both directions.

 

A few last minute tweaks. When I put the body on the chassis, there was a short and no movement.

 

As the model is built to OO Gauge, the wheels/back to back is closer to some of the bodywork than would be the case had it been built to a gauge closer to 4mm, EM, P4, or others. I had a piece of card to the back to back width, and marked the height of the wheel rims above the chassis.

Class23_064.jpg

 

A split of two photos showing where I have used the Dremmel and files to remove any hidden metalwork that was interfering with, or simply too close to the wheels.

Class23_065.jpg

 

A few photos of the body on the chassis, but not fixed as priming with undercoat is next. Too cold to do today. I have a can of Pheonix self-etch primer to try, I want to see if it differs from the other primer I have, so got a can anyway. I had to put the driver back in as soldering up any gaps made by the filing away around the cab splashers heated the low melt solder enough for him to drop out, I need to tidy around his feet judging by the photos.

Class23_066.jpg

 

Class23_067.jpg

 

Class23_068.jpg

 

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Class23_070.jpg

 

As well painting the Class 23, I am now going to revisit the Comet Caprotti Black 5. It almost ran, but had a ceasing point with the wheels and connecting rods. I hope I have learned enough to get it going and finish it off too.
Black5_40.jpg

 

It would be good to get both my first two loco builds working, and then paint and finish them.

 

Anyway, tonight is for things other than modelling, fridge well prepared with beer and munchies (although actually a salad a well) for the Superbowl (American Football championship) later. I’m supporting the Kansas City Chiefs, should be a good one.

 

Jamie

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Moving on to priming the body. I have bought a can of Phoenix Precision Etch Primer.

 

I was trying to avoid putting a paint like this through the airbrush, so bought a spray can. As with the can of non etch primer I bought from Phoenix, I am not impressed.

 

The paint is not the issue, it is the pressure of the can. The quality of the paint is superior to the Halfords primer, much smoother, no grain, but the force with which the primer comes out is way too much.

 

I have done very fine passes, four in all, but some have just blasted, and with the paint being so fine, it pools and runs, as I found before when doing my Class 120 DMU.

 

If you try to press less hard it sprays droplets. I have sprayed and moved the can quickly past the model. Mostly it is OK, but if you are not fast enough, splodge!

 

 

Class23_071.jpg

 

Class23_072.jpg

 

 

The cab interior looks far better primed, although this needed another coat, after this photo.

Class23_073.jpg

 

 

The advantage of an etch primer chemically binding to the edges where chipping is likely to happen is undermined by the fact I have had to use some very worn Wet & Dry to remove blobs.

Class23_074.jpg

 

 

After a fourth coat, again pooling due to the can pressure.

Class23_075.jpg

 

 

On the cab roof I lingered a fraction of a second too long, again will need sanding back, especially on such a flat area.

Class23_076.jpg

 

 

I will have to decide what to do for the Class 124 TransPennine when it comes to priming six units, with so many large flat edges. I am sure the same issues I had with the Class 120 will happen again (which I suspect were the primer not the green paint in retrospect). See post: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53110-ellerby-4mm-buildings-rolling-stock-scratch-kit-building/&do=findComment&comment=3408522

 

My gut feeling is that I will first coat with the can of Etch Primer, sand I with Wet & Dry, and then use an airbrush to add further coats.

I will not buy cans of primer from Phoenix again, but I will probably get their primers in a tin and use my airbrush for the painting. This might be me being used to a (fairly) good airbrush for painting, but in all honesty, I was as careful as could have been with the can. Again, the quality of the paint is much better than the Halfords I used before, the but cans are ********* (expletive of your choice).

 

Meanwhile the Black 5 chassis. I unsoldered one of the washers holding the connecting rods on each side, (really nice solid Comet ones!), and then unscrewed the other end. The middle crank pins were not soldered as they will take the drive shafts. I tried all kinds of variations on the movement.

Black5_41.jpg

 

 

It runs fine without the motor attached, pairs of drive wheels, and all six. The gearbox alone runs fine, it is just sitting into the chassis in the photo above, not in place through the axel.

 

With the motor attached to the axel and no connecting rods, the running is just a little jumpy. Nowhere near as badly as I remembered.

 

I think that the cogs are not quite sitting comfortably, and that I also need to find my little tube of fine lubricant I bought for model trains when I first started modelling, which is somewhere in the garage after the move.

The middle wheels are very slightly higher than the ones either side, as to a lesser extent with my Class 23, so I think that my Poppy’s jig isn’t quite level on that. When I next build a loco, I will have to think about a remedy for that, not for a while, buildings and DMU building planned, and finishing my Black 2, but the chassis is ne for that.

 

One other job is to lower the sole bar on my Class 129 DMU, looking at this again on the shelf, the bogies are way too far from the body, but I think that will be an easy fix.

 

So generally, things are moving on well.

 

Jamie

P.S. I misread the instructions on the side of the can, they are ‘agitator balls’ and not what I first thought. No emasculation of relatives of crocodiles was involved in the production of the paint cans!
 

 

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Jamie you need to hold the rattle can further away from the workpiece than you would with an airbrush to get an even spread of paint. I've found over the years that a distance of  12-18" is best. Use short sharp bursts using an even movement of the hand. How do you get to Carnegie hall?  Practice man practice! As the old joke goes.

Regards Lez.

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Thanks, Lezz

I did have the can a foot back, but there is no control of the power of the can, and as I have a good airbrush I'll use that when I buy more.

That said outdoors on a day like today, 18 inches back most of the paint goes into the wind. Hopefully by the time I get to do my next priming it will be warmer and calmer.

Jamie

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If you're using a spray can, have you considered using something like this ?

 

https://www.toolstation.com/plastikote-spray-gun/p55556

 

I find the trigger and handle give more control over pressure and grip than hand holding the can and operating the nozzle with the forefinger.

 

In the past, I've used Upol etch primer which gives a smooth finish.

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Thanks 5C

I will just use the airbrush when I buy again.

Holding the can over 18 inches away does stop the pooling, and gets paint on everything around, but does stop the pooling now the wind has died down.

I will get the airbrush out soon and start the coats of black, depending on the weather mostly.

Looking to do some more on the Black 5 in the meantime.

Jamie

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Well despite some reservations about its application, the Phoenix Precision primer takes a first coat of Humbrol Matt Black extremely well. Just one pass with the airbrush and the first transfers can be applied. Admittedly the BR crests will be coated with layers of black before weathering as they were barely visible on most photos I have seen of Class 23s. The black has come out very matt, so I think that next layer will be a thin satin black, and then on to weathering colours. Other transfer to ad at a much latter point.

 

I tried to wipe a little dirt off the tank with a brush that had been dipped in white spirit, and it took the black off, so I worked vertically into a spillage mark, but again this will be toned back with more layers of paint, just ahead of the BR logo on the left side.

 

Doing the transfers it has also picked up a lot of paper dust, which only shows up when you photograph it, but it will be left to dry and brushed with a soft brush to remove those before the next painting.

 

The buffer beams have been painted with a hand brush, and again the black and weathering will tone these back a lot. I also hand painted the inside of the chimney and around the values (?) just ahead of the cab by hand with black.

Class23_077.jpg

 

Class23_078.jpg

 

Class23_079.jpg

 

Class23_080.jpg

 

After looking around for photos of Class 23s with the round front handrail, this loco will be finished as 51336, which was a Manchester Newton heath loco (26A). The shed plate I have on it is 15A Wellingborough, but a little dirt on the 1, and none will see the difference (I hope). That loco lasted until the late 50’s so just fits with Ellerby’s time period, but that said as the location is fictious, I am not being that disciplined about what will run on the layout when it gets running.
 

Jamie

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The loco looks superb, and it makes me want to get on with mine, though I only have the old Cotswold kit, livened up with some bits from London Road Models.

 

For primer I always use Halfords' grey or red oxide, depending on final colour. I even use their satin black spray can if I'm building a black loco - the quality of the spray is so good, and I've never noticed paint come off a brass loco because I haven't used an etch primer.

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Thanks Barclay, it is nice little loco to build, and obviously has that appeal of not being available ready to run. I would definitely start the build. I was influenced by Jason T’s Bacup layout which has a Class 23.

A coat of satin black airbrushed. I overdid it a bit on the left BR crest so wiped that a little with a cotton bud, and then added another layer. I will dry brush over that as well to tone back the yellow showing more.

 

I do like to spray over transfers, and grey roofs on green diesels, with the base colour as I feel it blends everything together better before the weathering. I also think the smear I had looks good with a coat of black over it.
 

Not a lot of light for the photos, unfortunately.

 

I am pleased at the look, and will probably do the remaining transfers before the next coat which will be the start of the weathering. I can also glaze the cab windows now, and also brush paint the cab interior.

Class23_081.jpg

 

Class23_082.jpg

 

Class23_083.jpg

 

Although the chassis is brush painted with matt black it is still quite shiny, I think I will have to airbrush some matt black and then clean the wheels.
 

Happy how it is progressing, and despite the issues I had with the initial coats of the Phoenix primer, I do prefer that to Halfords as it doesn’t have the sandy grain of the Halfords primer I have. I suspect not having that grain does mean that it will run more easily, but it does take airbrushed paint very well, and shows a lot of detail.
 

Jamie

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Thanks Lez.

It runs OK, but needs running in and some lubrication.

It is fine at mid speed or faster, but at very slow still occasionally stops.

 

Painting the wheels and rods needs a little working out as well.

I can't find the tube of model oil I have so I will have to buy some for this and the Black 5.

Jamie

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Transfers now added. The side numbers will have some but not a lot of weathering over them, the front number and shed plates will have quite a lot of weathering, judging by a lot of the photos I have seen.

Class23_084.jpg

 

Class23_085.jpg

 

Class23_086.jpg



These have been given a light brush with Micro Set, and will have a quick spray of varnish just to hold them before the weathering. I brushed varnish on to some transfers in the past, and the brush took the transfers with it. I hope the airbrush will be gentler with them and leave them in place.

It will need another brush to remove the paper dust it has accumulated doing the transfers as well.
 

To be left overnight to dry well now.

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Thanks Barry for the recommendation for GT85, I will try and get a can this week.

More painting, the cab interior. LMS buildings Cream (near enough) for the cab interior, plus the driver and odd bits being picked out.

I forgot to take photos at that stage.

 

I used a very light coat of Matt Varnish over the transfers, then did another light coat of Satin Black to set the transfers in. More on the front as I want them to sit much more back than the sides, and also the front numbers are very yellow.

Class23_087.jpg

 

Class23_090.jpg

 

Class23_091.jpg

 

 

I also weathered the inside of the cab as I suspect an old 2F would be pretty dirty in there. I do need to take the shine of the driver’s uniform though. Sorry for the focus on the second shot.

Class23_088.jpg

 

Class23_089.jpg

 

One of the really good things about maintaining a thread like this on RMweb, is that you can go back and look up how you did certain things. I was happy with the quite heavy weathering I did on the Hornby Crosti 9F, and this is going to have quite a heavy weather, although not as filthy as the 9F.

 

Hard to see in this light, but light coat of Humbrol Grey Matt 31, all over, and then a fine dusting with a mix of Light Stone Matt 121 2/3 and Brick Red Matt 70 1/3. This last coat is mostly as to give consistency to everything on the layout, rolling stock, locos and buildings are all given a very light dusting with this colour combination, particularly the Brick Red.

Class23_092.jpg

 

Class23_093.jpg

 

Class23_094.jpg

 

Class23_095.jpg

 

It is a technique that I teach my students with grading film, and that I have always used in my graphic design work, to give an overall tint, or wash to make everything have a consistency. I think it works very well for the period I am modelling, green and black locos, and even the later blue and yellow ones, the dusty red with a hint of stone just makes everything feel like it belongs to the same location.

 

I can’t say that I am seeing much advantage of etched primer, I have found that paint is coming off where the loco is handled on the sides of the running plate. I don’t mind, that will fit the weathering, but this does fit with what others said. I had to give it a try for myself though.

Next I must add the buffers and coupling links, do any touching up needed, and dry brushing to finish the weathering. I also need to glaze teh cab windws, which I forgot before the airbrushing.

 

Jamie

 

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I have had to put a light right next to the loco to get an exposure, so the photos look much harsher than if seen by the naked eye.

 

Continuing the weathering which is a little bit over the top at the moment and will need some toning back. I have seen photos of Class 23’s looking worse in the last days of steam, but I would like this to look like it could at least make it out of a storage siding.

 

I don’t mind, another couple of light coats of black and also grey will pull it all together. With both rolling stock and buildings I find that a light airbrush at the end removes brush strokes and other misdemeanours.

 

Just as well as there are a couple of things that are a bit too much at the moment. I should not have taken thinned on a cotton bud and wiped at some of the numbers, exposing a clean bit makes it all look too uneven.

 

After dry brushing, I ran some thinner on to the top of the tank to get some run downs and water stains. This has worked too well, but I think ultimately will be fine once airbrushed over will be fine.

Class23_096.jpg

 

Class23_097.jpg

 

I think the above weathering would be OK for tankers and goods stock, but not for a loco.

 

Buffers and coupling links now fitted, the slightly smaller ones for the latter. A little blending with a thinner dipped cotton bud to even out some of the weathering. A little painting on the buffers, but more needed. The roof just perched on. I also picked out the drivers skin colour a little as he had weathered too much like his loco.

Class23_098.jpg

 

Class23_099.jpg

 

Class23_100.jpg

 

There are some strands of cotton from the bud that need brushing away.

 

Not sure how to do the cab windows glazing. I have some Glue’n’Glaze, and I tried it on a window before, but it never dried hard, just to a rubbery texture. I am tempted to cut clear plastic to shape and glue that in. Suggestions?

 

I also had one other thing that had me worried for a bit. It stopped working, until I realised that the airbrush pass on the chassis when it dried had insulated the wheels from working as pickups. I soldered a couple of wires directly to the pickups, and then held the chassis in a clamp and ran it fast while holding a cotton bud dipped in White Spirit. The muck it got off. Anyway, it works again, but is a tiny bit more hesitant than before, I suspect the it needs lubricating and also a good run in.

 

The weathering and airbrush have got a little a paint into the moving parts that will need running out. I did the airbrushing on a static chassis, and should have had it running as I normally so, but I haven’t got the that piece of track for the painting set up yet – it is about 15inches on a wooden base, with a couple of nails with rubber bands on to hold the loco, not quite a rolling road, but ti works.

I will try and do the airbrushing soon.

 

Jamie

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You could try Humbrol clearfix Jamie, but it's not really good for a hole over 3mm. Why not make windows out of clear plasticard and fix them in with clearfix. If you don't feel comfortable cutting one by hand get a bit of brass tube about the right diameter and chamfer the hole with a drill with a larger diameter to within an inch of its life, then just tap it with a hammer on the clear plasticard on a piece of wood and you've made yourself a hole punch the right size. Best I can come up with on short notice. Or see if you can find a leather punch the right size on ebay. 

Regards Lez.  

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