Poor Old Bruce Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 The change from beaded splashers to plain seems to have taken place part way through the last Midland batch. The first batch(es) of LMS build were given second hand Johnson tenders from withdrawn Spinners etc. I think many of those Johnson tenders were replaced with Fowler tenders when the 'Austin 7' 0-8-0s were withdrawn in the 1950s but you would need dated photographs for individual locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 8, 2015 Share Posted March 8, 2015 Lots of 4Fs had their Johnson/Deely tenders replaced with Fowler tenders. On the S&D in particular the 'Armstrongs' received ones with coal hole fronts rather than coal door fronts, which means Bachmann's 4F can't be renumbered accurately as an Armstrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 Rob, Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. If you ever find out when the Deeley tender versions last ran, please let me know. I have the Bachmann 43875 which I understand lasted until 1958, but I wonder if there were lots of tender swaps as more locos were withdrawn - my guess is that the Deeley tenders disappeared fairly rapidly. 43875 certainly ran, as modelled by Bachmann, on the S&DJR until the early fifties. Here's my take on it. Photo has appeared on another thread. Rob 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 Rob, Thanks for the advice, much appreciated. If you ever find out when the Deeley tender versions last ran, please let me know. I have the Bachmann 43875 which I understand lasted until 1958, but I wonder if there were lots of tender swaps as more locos were withdrawn - my guess is that the Deeley tenders disappeared fairly rapidly. A quick flip through 'The Somerset & Dorset in the Fifties, Vol.2' (Ivo Peters, OPC) revealed rather fewer pictures of 4Fs than I was expecting. However, two example of locos still with Deeley tenders were, 44559 (September 1955) and 44557 (August 1956). The latter loco is depicted with a Fowler tender (March 1960) in the next volume of the series. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 A quick flip through 'The Somerset & Dorset in the Fifties, Vol.2' (Ivo Peters, OPC) revealed rather fewer pictures of 4Fs than I was expecting... We discussed 4F tenders on the S&DJR a few years ago, here's one topic. Using eleven different sources of photos, my broad conclusion was that most LMS engines had Fowler tenders at or soon after nationalisation, though the Armstrongs received them by 1958/9. 44558 had one by 1956. It's difficult to be more precise as there were surprisingly few photos of Armstrongs between 1955-8. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robday12 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 . If you ever find out when the Deeley tender versions last ran, please let me know. I have the Bachmann 43875 which I understand lasted until 1958, but I wonder if there were lots of tender swaps as more locos were withdrawn - my guess is that the Deeley tenders disappeared fairly rapidly. Hi, Colin, I've not found anything definitive yet, but was pointed to a web site www.Rail-online.co.uk which has some useful images, most of them are dated so give an idea of when these tenders were in use. If you don't already know this site ,I think it's well worth a look, I spent about three hours yesterday browsing through it, (I only managed to drag myself away from it 'cos I was meeting some mates for a pint.) Cheers Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 9, 2015 Hi, Colin, I've not found anything definitive yet, but was pointed to a web site www.Rail-online.co.uk which has some useful images, most of them are dated so give an idea of when these tenders were in use. If you don't already know this site ,I think it's well worth a look, I spent about three hours yesterday browsing through it, (I only managed to drag myself away from it 'cos I was meeting some mates for a pint.) Cheers Rob After three hours, I think I'd need a pint! I wasn't actually aware that 43875 ran on the S&D; armed with that knowledge, I think I shall just add a crew and some light weathering and invoke Rule 1. Thanks for all your help! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 (edited) No worries, Colin. 3875, as it was then, was running on the S&D in July 1946 as photographed by Norman Lockett ( The Somerset and Dorset Railway 1935-1966 ). Renumbered by August 1949 and withdrawn in 1956. Rob Edited March 9, 2015 by nhy581 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDJR7F88 Posted March 9, 2015 Share Posted March 9, 2015 43875 certainly ran, as modelled by Bachmann, on the S&DJR until the early fifties. Here's my take on it. Photo has appeared on another thread. Rob Phhheewww! Glad to hear that! As that's why I got her Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted March 9, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2015 Nice picture of 43875 being piloted by 44100 through Parkstone in August 1950 on a Bath to Bournemouth stopper in 'Life on the Bath to Bournemouth Line' by Colin Maggs. Shown as still allocated to Bath in September 1950 not sure when it moved away. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2015 My exhibition layout is based c.1960-62, so it follows that Rule 1 MUST apply when 43875 appears on a local! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 You'll have to pretend it was preserved ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 10, 2015 You'll have to pretend it was preserved ! Or I could just say that there had been an "emergency" tender swap with a 3F at Templecombe shed due to a leaking tank, broken spring etc.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2015 Why look for an excuse? Ultimately you have no need to explain to yourself why you are running a particular loco, coach or wagon. Just do it. If it looks right to you then it is right. Life's too short. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Yes, except that 43875 was withdrawn in 1956 and your modelling 1960-1962 ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Or I could just say that there had been an "emergency" tender swap with a 3F at Templecombe shed due to a leaking tank, broken spring etc.... Just for info, a mate of mine worked at Doncaster shed and later the works. He said it was a pig of a job to seperate a tender from the loco. Knocking out the pin in the coupling shaft was a really difficult task on most locos. Therefore to do two in order to swap tenders was almost unheard of. Even if there was a leak in the tank it was easier and quicker to weld on a patch! Cheers Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold NHY 581 Posted March 10, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2015 Yes, except that 43875 was withdrawn in 1956 and your modelling 1960-1962 ! Yes....and? If someone is happy to overlook that then crack on I say...... I completely ignore the coming of the Western Region to my slice of the S&D therefore no pesky panniers or collet goods. However I do have a Crab and Ivatt moguls, both of which were long gone from the mendips by 1960.......because I like them.. Come on, this hobby is fun and allows us to create a world long gone, in a way we see fit. Rob 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Colin Posted March 18, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2015 I originally bought 43875 because it makes a change from my Fowler tender 4Fs, unfortunately I didn't think to check when it was withdrawn or when a tender swap might have occurred. I'm a modeller as opposed to a collector so more than happy to renumber (or just to ignore the withdrawal date if it suits me). After all, the wrong number is a pretty small anachronism and easily ignored - unless it's a real howler like the Bachmann Jubilee I once saw on sale at an exhibition at an inflated price ("professionally" weathered & detailed, allegedly) in late crest weathered mid-'60s "economy" unlined green and festooned with electrification flashes - the loco was Harrow victim "Windward Isles", scrapped in 1952/53! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combe Martin Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 It rather depends upon what your modelling period is ?. You could renumber it into a loco that was withdrawn later, but no S&D 4F appeared with this tender in the late 50s onwards, well not photographed, and I have studied loads, especially 4F ones looking at tenders attached to Armstrongs, and they didn't have this tender before the Fowler ones, theirs was much bigger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted May 14, 2015 Share Posted May 14, 2015 Colin, on 07 Mar 2015 - 21:31, said: Just noticed that one of the 2015 releases is numbered 44044. I always thought that the LMS 4Fs started at 44027 - does this mean the new model should have some significant detail differences? The LMS 4Fs number sequence did begin at 4027, but the first few batches were right hand drive like their Midland built counterparts. According to Bob Essery in "Midland Record" #2 the left hand drive loco number sequence began at 4207, so I would guess there would not be too many differences. One difference was the lack of beading on the splashers of the LMS build. Cheers Rob I'm awaiting this one with interest too - I'm not reading too much into the picture Bachmann have used still have splasher beading, but they have still called it a 'Midland' 4F in the description. I'm sure there won't be any real schoolboy errors though. I currently have a Brassmasters kit lined up for 44055, but if they do 44044 correctly then I am not doubt going to take the easy way out and go down the Bachmann/Brassmasters easi-chas route. It's a shame it is late crest and weathered (44055 didn't get a late crest til relatively late on, in my timeframe at least) but it will still be a much easier starting point if the base model is correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 (edited) Colin, on 07 Mar 2015 - 21:31, said: I'm awaiting this one with interest too - I'm not reading too much into the picture Bachmann have used still have splasher beading, but they have still called it a 'Midland' 4F in the description. I'm sure there won't be any real schoolboy errors though. I currently have a Brassmasters kit lined up for 44055, but if they do 44044 correctly then I am not doubt going to take the easy way out and go down the Bachmann/Brassmasters easi-chas route. It's a shame it is late crest and weathered (44055 didn't get a late crest til relatively late on, in my timeframe at least) but it will still be a much easier starting point if the base model is correct. The front and middle splashers are seperate plastic mouldings so it would be easy to do a different batch with these new splashers. However the rear splasher is moulded as part of the firebox side so this would mean re-tooling the complete plastic boiler/firebox. My bet is that they will not do it. Tony Edited May 15, 2015 by Rail-Online Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 More significant to me would be if Bachmann fitted the correct Ramsbottom safety valves to their planned offering in Midland livery. It's not easy to find replacement fittings with a round base, even from AGW. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 More significant to me would be if Bachmann fitted the correct Ramsbottom safety valves to their planned offering in Midland livery. It's not easy to find replacement fittings with a round base, even from AGW. How about London Road? I can't see loco fittings as a section on the website, but the exhibition stand usually has such things so might be worth emailing them to ask? Don't quote me on Ramsbottom safety valves themselves, as it isnt something I use - bit early for my period. Thinking of which, I have an LRM 3F kit at home so will have a look what was supplied with that and let you know/PM you a photo if appropriate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jub45565 Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 More significant to me would be if Bachmann fitted the correct Ramsbottom safety valves to their planned offering in Midland livery. It's not easy to find replacement fittings with a round base, even from AGW. Hi Richard, The LRM one, by the sound of it, is not what you want: However, the Brassmasters one supplied in their 4F kit looks to be the part: (For clarity, the lost wax casting is supplied with the London Road Models 3F kit, while the 2 white metal parts in the bag are part of the Brassmasters 4F casting set). I hope/presume there is an etched tag somewhere for the top, alongside the 2 whitemetal castings. Unfortunately, this being the case, I can't see Brassmasters selling them as a spare part as the castings will be ordered as a pack and the etch in the middle of a sheet (but it may be worth asking, it is possible they have one lying around from a test build - bar the below). My Brassmasters kit (as I'm sure most are ;-)) is still complete in its box, and until I crack on with it myself I'd like to leave it that way for now... & also the base is common to both types of safety valve, so even if someone else could give away the Ramsbottom bit they would have used the base with the Ross pop's. Hopefully Bachmann will do it for you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted May 15, 2015 Share Posted May 15, 2015 Hi Richard, The LRM one, by the sound of it, is not what you want: 20150515_153426(2).jpg However, the Brassmasters one supplied in their 4F kit looks to be the part: 20150515_153353(2).jpg (For clarity, the lost wax casting is supplied with the London Road Models 3F kit, while the 2 white metal parts in the bag are part of the Brassmasters 4F casting set). I hope/presume there is an etched tag somewhere for the top, alongside the 2 whitemetal castings. Unfortunately, this being the case, I can't see Brassmasters selling them as a spare part as the castings will be ordered as a pack and the etch in the middle of a sheet (but it may be worth asking, it is possible they have one lying around from a test build - bar the below). My Brassmasters kit (as I'm sure most are ;-)) is still complete in its box, and until I crack on with it myself I'd like to leave it that way for now... & also the base is common to both types of safety valve, so even if someone else could give away the Ramsbottom bit they would have used the base with the Ross pop's. Hopefully Bachmann will do it for you! I think it is the type with the elongated narrow base that was fitted to 3F's in MR days ie the LRM casting. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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