Wolverhampton Low Level

[Siberian Snooper]

Good too see this project being resurrected, I think you were originally going to build it too EM gauge, is that still extant or will you be doing it in P4, now that you have had a dabble in that gauge?

[Mark Forrest]

Good too see this project being resurrected, I think you were originally going to build it too EM gauge, is that still extant or will you be doing it in P4, now that you have had a dabble in that gauge?

 

Thanks.  Yes that's right, I'd originally planned to do it in EM, but having dipped my toes into P4 waters with Fryers Lane I'll be sticking with P4 for this.  I think I'd got as far as drawing it in Templot in P4 so I need to see if I still have the files, although it would be fairly easy to do it again from scratch.

[Mark Forrest]

I found myself with a little spare time this morning so had a browse through some of the drawings and plans that I've obtained over the years.  The previous Templot plan I'd produced used a 1:500 plan of the site as it was in the mid '80s; after it had closed as a parcels depot.  This showed a turnout at the London end of the down platform, however earlier photos suggested this had once been a double slip.  I assume this was changed when the bay platform was removed.  This 1933 GWR plan shows the earlier layout:

 

I thought I'd have a go at using this earlier plan as a background for the Templot this time and try including the slip:

 

A 1968 photo on Disused Stations shows the slip intact, but photos taken in 1971 and 1972 suggest it had been removed and additional metal supports added below the Sun Street bridge as seen in this photo (taken on the last day of the passenger service in 1972 - hence the 3 car 101 rather than the usual 122). This also shows the gentle curve of the line as it comes beneath the bridge which I've omitted from the Templot, whether I include that depends on how I tackle the fiddle yard.

WLL by Tony Martin, on Flickr

To be correct for the period I have in mind, I need to stick with the original idea of using a turnout in place of the double slip (I'll include some of the longer timbers to show where slip had been) and include the supports under the bridge.  These seem to have sprung up on the up platform too, if nothing else, they will help block the view into the fiddle yard.  To be honest, that's a bit of a relief as a didn't really fancy drawing (or making!) the arrangement shown in the GWR plan which appears to be made up of two overlapping double slips!

[TheSignalEngineer]

I think I may still have a line diagram as it was in the mid 1960s marked up with the proposed alterations after LMR electrification.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Found it. This is an extract of the sheet for 141-142 MP. The point ends all have chainage shown 

 

Eric

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

This is the bit of track you were talking about.

Wolverhampton Low Level (pjs,0832) My version by geoff7918, on Flickr

[Mark Forrest]

Found it. This is an extract of the sheet for 141-142 MP. The point ends all have chainage shown

 

Eric

 

wolves ll_0002 (1280x932).jpg

Thanks for that Eric, that's amazing - thank you for sharing it. It looks like the intention was to remove a lot more track than actually happened, I wonder if this pre-dated the decision to use the site as a parcels depot? I had read a comment (on Disused Stations, I think) which said additional sidings were added after the parcels depot opened, I'm wondering if that means the former Goods Lines were lifted then later relaid as sidings (the crossover between them has gone in later photos and I think parts of them are flat bottom rail)?

 

That trackwork beneath the bridge is wonderful, it would look great; but very much doubt my ability to model it successfully. The fact it had been removed makes my life a little easier!

 

Thanks again.

[Mark Forrest]

The next part of the jigsaw of buildings is the wall which separates the toilet block from the platform; originally this would have supported the overall roof until its removal in the '30s so is a fairly substantial bit of brickwork.  On my first site visit, back in May 2006 (!) this was the best photo I could get:

 

Fortunately, on a later visit, I was able to get much closer:

 

 

Combining these with some 1:100 drawings of this section of the building I've sketched out this section to 4mm scale, noting that there are subtle difference in the brickwork on either side and counting bricks to confirm dimensions.  I'm tempted to get the brick arches laser cut; I'll need 4 for this section, plus at least another 20 of the same for the wall on the opposite side of the station.  Before I do though, I'm going to have a look at making a master and casting the entire inset top section above the row of stone.

 

Speaking of casting, I've finally got around to checking that the silicone for mould making hadn't gone off and poured a new mould for the building details I had done previously.  Now I'm satisfied that the silicone seems to be OK I can get on and place an order for some fresh casting resin to replace the 5 year old stuff in a split bottle that I've had to throw away!

[Richie Kynaston]

Found it. This is an extract of the sheet for 141-142 MP. The point ends all have chainage shown 

 

Eric

 

wolves ll_0002 (1280x932).jpg

Hi Eric,

Sorry to hijack somebody else’s thread, but you don’t happen to have the next sheet to the left of this plan do you, showing the other end of the station?

 

Richie

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi Eric,

Sorry to hijack somebody else’s thread, but you don’t happen to have the next sheet to the left of this plan do you, showing the other end of the station?

 

Richie

I'll check to see. I have a folder with several in somewhere.

Eric

Edited January 14, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[TheSignalEngineer]

Found all the way from Snow Hill to Stafford Road Works.

 

This is the other end of the Low Level station

 

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

Found all the way from Snow Hill to Stafford Road Works.

 

This is the other end of the Low Level station

 

DCL MP141-2 (1280x932).jpg

A question about the Chainages.

 

Are all the siding ends, points etc. always measured as if they are alongside the running line, even if at 45^o etc.?

 

Cheers

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

A question about the Chainages.

 

Are all the siding ends, points etc. always measured as if they are alongside the running line, even if at 45^o etc.?

 

Cheers

 

Keith

These line diagrams and signalling plans are drawn to scale longitudinally, so yes. They are greatly distorted laterally due to the space required to show all of the details.

 

Edit  And of course the running lines are straightened out.

Edited January 15, 2019 by TheSignalEngineer

[Richie Kynaston]

Found all the way from Snow Hill to Stafford Road Works.

 

This is the other end of the Low Level station

 

DCL MP141-2 (1280x932).jpg

Many thanks, much appreciated.

[Siberian Snooper]

Here's a link to the NLS 25 inch map, which covers the whole station plus.

 

https://maps.nls.uk/view/115475439

[ianb3174]

Wow. That brings back some memories. My dad worked for Wolverhampton council in planning and public health. They had a clearout of obsolete maps and he bought this exact map home for me. It was printed on very thick paper and rolled in a tube. I pinned to the wall to try and flatten it a bit. He tried to get the one of Oxley sheds but it had already been chucked. 

[MatthewCarty]

On 14/01/2019 at 23:23, TheSignalEngineer said:

Found all the way from Snow Hill to Stafford Road Works.

 

This is the other end of the Low Level station

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry to bring back this old thread, but there seems to be a fair amount of knowledge on Wolverhampton low level. 

Does anybody know when the scissor crossing (between what I think was platform 3 and the loop line) existed? I can’t find any pictures of it close up and from what I can see at some point it was switched to just a single facing crossover. Thanks!

[5BarVT]

Hi Matthew,

You chose the wrong diagram!  If you go a few posts earlier you’ll find the south end with a note about ‘64 recoveries (it’s against the Midland connection and was I/c/w Wolverhampton resignalling).  Looking at the crossover on that I thought that the facing crossover (in the platform line) might have been highlighted in blue not green.  Perusal of photos in disused stations, Simon Dewey’s books on Wolverhampton and the Ian Allen Railcentres book have led me to conclude that the facing crossover was recovered.  (Switches went, crossings remained so it’s difficult to tell!). There are photos of stabled units at the north end of the Up middle siding and retaining the facing crossover out of the siding would mean that the empty unit could just drive straight into the departure platform.

That’s my take on it.

Slightly less off topic, it’s the wrong way round for me as I want to be able to use it as a run round even when the siding is full!

Paul.

[MatthewCarty]

21 minutes ago, 5BarVT said:

Hi Matthew,

You chose the wrong diagram!  If you go a few posts earlier you’ll find the south end with a note about ‘64 recoveries (it’s against the Midland connection and was I/c/w Wolverhampton resignalling).  Looking at the crossover on that I thought that the facing crossover (in the platform line) might have been highlighted in blue not green.  Perusal of photos in disused stations, Simon Dewey’s books on Wolverhampton and the Ian Allen Railcentres book have led me to conclude that the facing crossover was recovered.  (Switches went, crossings remained so it’s difficult to tell!). There are photos of stabled units at the north end of the Up middle siding and retaining the facing crossover out of the siding would mean that the empty unit could just drive straight into the departure platform.

That’s my take on it.

Slightly less off topic, it’s the wrong way round for me as I want to be able to use it as a run round even when the siding is full!

Paul.

I did see that one, but hadn’t quite joined the dots in terms of understanding it was showing the proposed changes (should have read more carefully)! I’m looking quite a bit earlier (somewhere around 1958) so I guess the changes aren’t particularly relevant but still interesting. Have you seen any photos with the full scissor crossover in place as the plans seem to suggest existed (at least at some point).

 

thanks again,

Matthew

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 hours ago, MatthewCarty said:

I did see that one, but hadn’t quite joined the dots in terms of understanding it was showing the proposed changes (should have read more carefully)! I’m looking quite a bit earlier (somewhere around 1958) so I guess the changes aren’t particularly relevant but still interesting. Have you seen any photos with the full scissor crossover in place as the plans seem to suggest existed (at least at some point).

 

thanks again,

Matthew

Hi Matthew,

The dates on the plan I took those scans from show that it was amended in October 1962, so it would appear that the scissors was still in position at that date. All of the photos I have looked at show coaches parked over it on the middle road so I can't say when it came out.

 

Eric

[MatthewCarty]

1 hour ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Hi Matthew,

The dates on the plan I took those scans from show that it was amended in October 1962, so it would appear that the scissors was still in position at that date. All of the photos I have looked at show coaches parked over it on the middle road so I can't say when it came out.

 

Eric

Thanks for looking, it’s very helpful as I’ve struggled to find many photos of that section of the station.

Almost all photos I’ve seen have been looking out towards the approaches or taken from the south looking at the footbridge with mainly the trailing crossover between the two loop lines in view (scissor crossing almost never in view).

 

if anyone can point me in the direction of books/websites with some better photos of this middle section of the station I would be very grateful!

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 20/04/2020 at 13:24, MatthewCarty said:

I did see that one, but hadn’t quite joined the dots in terms of understanding it was showing the proposed changes (should have read more carefully)! I’m looking quite a bit earlier (somewhere around 1958) so I guess the changes aren’t particularly relevant but still interesting. Have you seen any photos with the full scissor crossover in place as the plans seem to suggest existed (at least at some point).

 

thanks again,

Matthew

The only picture I can think of at the moment was of KGV on the special which ran on 9th(?) September 1962. It's around on the web somewhere.

[5BarVT]

2 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

The only picture I can think of at the moment was of KGV on the special which ran on 9th(?) September 1962. It's around on the web somewhere.

It’s on the front page of the Low Level entry in Disused Stations website.  It’s also in Simon Dewey’s Wolverhampton’s Railways in colour.

There is also a photo of a class 40 arriving in ‘early 64’ where the crossover is still there (both arms on the Up direction bracket) in Wolverhampton’s Railways Revisited.

Middleton Press Stourbridge to Wolverhampton has one picture which includes the wording ‘after the removal of the scissors crossovers in 1964’, another (undated) which shows only one arm on the bracket and one dated 1967 where the  switch tips of the facing crossover are clearly missing but the trailing crossover is complete.

Paul.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thanks Paul, that's the one.  I couldn't remember where and was posting by phone so not easy to find from scratch. 

Need for the scissors was reducing as the Stourbridge passenger services had gone in 1962 and freight traffic was rapidly declining. Besides the hourly Paddingtons and Wellington to Leamington DMUs there was little weekday passenger traffic.

Eric.