Privat Owner Wagons--1930

[mah644]

Greetings,

 

I'm researching modelling the Welshpool area in 1930, and have just begun obtaining information relative to standard gauge wagons that would have been running through there on the GWR (ex-Cambrian) at that time. I have several questions for which I seek answers:

 

1. What was the general "mix" of wagons seen at this time in this area (i.e.--mainly open carrying coal, a general mix of all types, general including specialized based on the shipments arriving at the Welsh ports, etc.).

 

2. What private owner wagons would have been seen in Welshpool ? Is anyone aware of specific models which have been produced in 4mm of P.O. wagons that would be appropriate for this locale at this time ? ( I'm aware, for example, of J LL Peate).

 

[Forgive me for posing these questions so directly. Having modelled US railroads for half a century, I know it takes time to acquire or develop the knowledge necessary to address either of these questions. Having (seriously) modelled UK railways for less than a year I realise, at age 65, that I may not have another half a century during which I can develop the knowledge to answer my own questions.]

 

Any information or direction that forum members can provide will be greatly appreciated.

 

Kindest Regards,

 

Carl

[Gingerbread]

Firstly some general statistics:

About 50% of British railway wagons at this time would be Private Owners wagons, the other 50% would be owned by the various railways.

I think PO wagons were predominantly used for coal, but other minerals were also carried, including lime in the example which you illustrate.

For the GWR, approximately 90% of its wagons were for general merchandise - initially this was virtually all carried in open wagons, but gradually switched to covered vans - I don't have figures for this period, but would guess at a 50:50 split between open and covered.

Most wagons were in a common pool, so wagons from the LMS and LNER would frequently be seen, possibly more frequently then native GWR wagons.

 

Looking specifically at the Welshpool area, I don't believe that there would be heavy coal traffic. There were attempts to develop coal traffic from the South Wales mines to factories in the Midlands and North West, but I don't think they had much success. There would be coal arriving for local consumption in the Welshpool area, which would probably arrive in wagons belonging to the local coal merchants, but possibly also in wagons belonging to the mines or to coal wholesalers.

Looking at the range available from Robbies Rolling Stock here, the following appear plausible as they come from nearby sites:

WM17 Gresford and WM25 LLay for collieries at Wrexham, with rail links via the Cambrian

WM109 Shrewsbury Co-Op

WM026 Llylyns Lime Works, WM087 Thomas Milner and WM088 Joseph Williams, all from Oswestry

There's also a large selection from Welsh sites here which all appear plausible.

 

Another possibility arises from the Snailbeach District Railways (narrow gauge) which joined the Shrewsbury-Welshpool line at Pontesbury. Principally intended to carry lead from the Stiperstones area, it also carried coal from Pontesbury to the Stiperstones, as well as stone from a quarry at Habberley. Some details can be found on Wikipedia here. Whilst I think this would then have travelled eastwards via Shrewsbury, it is possible that some would have travelled west to Welshpool then southwards to South Wales.

 

David

[Poggy1165]

There is a book, Private Owner Wagons on the Cambrian by M.M. Lloyd which is likely to be helpful if you can find a copy. I think it is out of print.

 

The Welsh Railways Research Circle may also be able to advise. Probably worth joining anyway in view of your interests.

 

I would think the coal traffic would be mainly domestic, for the small amount of industry in the area, and loco coal. (If you were modelling circa 1914-18 you could have Admiralty specials of South Wales Coal as some was routed via the Cambrian and onto the GC at Wrexham, but I doubt this routing was perpetuated after 1918.) If you get stuck for prototypes I would suggest that a wagon from one of the big agencies, like Stephenson Clarke, is never out of place.

[Bucket of Steam]

'Private Owner Wagons on the Cambrian' lists the following at Welshpool

 

A E Breeze

Breeze Bros

The Farmers Lime Coal & General Supply Co

W E Morgan

J & M Morris Ltd

John Norris

Owen & Hamer

Parry, Son & Parry

Peate Bros ( which you have above.

 

Cheers

Ian

[DonB]

If you are modelling Welshpool Station (rather than the area) don't miss the possibility of interchange traffic to and from the narrow gauge W&L.

Although it's a bit away from your area, http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/ has lots of photos in its GWR section of the sort of mix of wagons & vans found in the 30s.

[bbishop]

Carl,

 

Your mix of company wagons would be approximately 75% open, 20% vans and 5% other. Most of the 95% would be common user, with a breakdown of LMS 44%, LNER 33%, certain other railway 17%, SR 6%. Assuming that 10% was Non Common User (noted by N on the solebar), it would be owned by the company in whose area the traffic originated then returned empty. You have chosen an interesting timeframe as the country hadn't recovered from the posr WW1 economic downturn. With minimal investment funds, wagons were patched up rather than being replaced so you could consider wagons from say 1900 onwards.

 

The Railway Clearing House produced "standard" diagrams of mineral wagons. This meant that local wagon repairers could mend any wagon that broke down in their neighbourhood rather than having to return it to the manufacturer. The signiificant dates for you are the 1907 and 1923 diagrams as mineral wagons probably had a shorter life than company wagons. As well as traders' wagons, you could also justify local collieries and Poggy has also suggested factors' wagons (ie Stephenson Clarke). Your problems are compounded by the habit of a company to change it's livery with a repaint. As these happened every seven years or so, you can only trust a photo taken between 1923 and 1930.

 

Finally a few thoughts on your Peate wagon. I would have thought a tare in the order of 6 ton and a load of 8 ton. Also probably spoked wheels and it wouldn't have safety chains. Buffers (obviously) and if that is meant to be a single brake block far side, by 1930 it would probably have V hangers and double brake blocks on one side at least ( quite possibly both sides).

 

Bill

[Bucket of Steam]

Bill,

 

The Peate wagon above appears to be one of the narrow gauge wagons which the company ran on the W & L. It closely matches a drawing in the Cambrian Wagons book. According to the book wagons 2, 5, 6, 7, and 8 were narrow gauge and wagons 1, 3 and 4 were standard gauge. The book gives no details of the Standard gauge wagons, other than an opinion that the lettering was as per narrow gauge wagon.

 

It says the company dealt in coal and lime. Lime amounting to 300 tons per season originating for the Porthywaen Lime Company at Llanymynech. No figures are provided for coal.

 

Cheers

Ian

[bbishop]

Ian,

 

Well spotted. Any idea of drawing date?

 

Bill

[Bucket of Steam]

Bill,

 

Mike Lloyd notes in the book that the company was in existence by 1889/90 so the wagon could be very early.

There is no date given for the drawing, but it is annotated as sources 'R.Y. Pickering General Arrangement Drawing. and Photograph', so I would guess Mr Loyd made the drawing based on those. I expect the G.A, would show a date. He also notes that a photograph appears in 'The Weshpool and Llanfair Light Railway' by R Cartwright and R T Russell. I don't have that book though.

R. Y. Pickering were based in Wishaw Scotland which seems a long way to purchase wagons from, but maybe they had local agents?

 

Cheers

Ian

 

Edited to add

A bit more digging and there are references to these wagons in 'Narrow gauge Railways in Mid Wales' by J.I.C Boyd. It looks like Pickering supplied rolling stock for the W & L, and these wagons were similar to standard 4 ton W & L coal wagons. Those were supplied in 1902. The Peate wagons are noted as scrapped in 1935.

[flyingsignalman]

R Y Pickering supplied 3 carriages and 48 wagons to the Welshpool & Llanfair Light Railway for its opening.

Peate's were, perhaps, to get a favourable deal as an add on to that order for the NG wagons.

[mah644]

Greetings All,

 

When I first posted I was afraid that my questions were of the "Blood and Custard" variety--so simple that even a neophyte should have known the answers (in the States, this is known as an "Infield Fly Rule" question). I find, thankfully, that this is incorrect. A few comments relative to the responses so far:

 

*Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to offer information. It is all constructive and I truly appreciate it.

 

*Robbie Burns has arranged my purchase of 4 wagons (W.E.Morgan, Hugh Lumley, Tom Milner, Steetley & Co.) and a Llylyms Lime transfer set.

 

*There is much to learn about the RCH 1907 and 1923 diagram wagons. Even if the Robbie's Rolling Stock orders are not "spot on", they represent a valid starting point.

 

*Peter Blackham is preparing a proposal to provide me with Peate and GWR (W&L) transfers for the Nine Lines OO9 wagons on which I'm working.

 

*The opportunity to model "dual" gauge operations was a primary reason for selecting this locale and this time period.

 

*The Peate wagon illustrated is NG. I have never seen an illustration of the standard gauge variety, just comment that it was had the same maroon body with white lettering.

 

*The Lloyd book on Cambrian wagons is a little more difficult to find than the Golden Arrow OO9 kit of the W&L "Earl/Countess".

 

*I find "bbishops"'s comments very interesting, since I would have assumed (based on US practice) that the majority of rolling stock seen at Welshpool would be "home road"--i.e, the GWR.

 

*Try as I might, I can't seem to correct the title of this entry to read "Private" instead of "Privat". Thanks for understanding.

 

Kindest Regards,

 

Carl

[Nick Holliday]

Reading through Mike Lloyd's book, one thing that struck me was that Welshpool would have seen almost all the private traders' wagons registered on the Cambrian, from Pwllheli and Aberystwyth to Oswestry and Brecon, since most of them appeared to have obtained their supplies from South and North Wales and the Midlands, and the route would then have been through Newtown and Welshpool and on to their final destination. That broadens your scope from the relatively few that were based at Welshpool itself.

Hope you can lay your hands on the Lloyd book, as it is a very good source of inspiration.

[george stein]

Check out "Robbie's Rolling Stock" website. It's a decal site for doing the Ratio OO scale 5 & 7 plank unpainted wagons. The interesting thing about the site is it's broken down by region with PO wagons appropriate to each region. So, as I intend to do a fictional GWR single line thru station "somewhere" between Oxford and Swindon, I will buy PO decals for various coal merchants, etc. whose wagons denote Oxford, Didcot, Swindon or the general area. Unfortunately, I've e-mailed Robbie's site several times and no replay. Hope he's not ill.

[mah644]

..... Unfortunately, I've e-mailed Robbie's site several times and no replay. Hope he's not ill.

 

George,

 

I e-mailed him yesterday and we have exchanged several today. He was, perhaps, attending an exhibition.