CAD Workshops or Courses

[clecklewyke]

I am becoming more and more aware of the potential for modelling of technologies such as laser cutting, three dimension printing, and not forgetting photo-etching. All of these depend on a basic knowledge of CAD to produce the data from which the final products are made. I wonder if anyone knows of any workshops on the use of CAD in these contexts for model makers?

 

Many modellers need to make repeat runs of simple things like platform canopy brackets, roof trusses etc., for which the ideal medium is etched brass. Many are also designing buildings which are produced by laser cutting of wood or plastic. A few are beginning to use 3D printing for all sorts of things, including loco bodies or components to modify RTR models.

 

I think that these new technologies will soon become commonplace and few of us will continue to cut lacy bits of pasticard or fabricate complex shapes from bits of brass. We will mostly produce a CAD file which we either send to our own 3D printer or laser cutter or to a shop providing the service.

 

I am conscious of being left behind what is rapidly becoming the mainstream of finescale modellers. Can you help, please?

 

Ian

[Pugsley]

I don't recall ever seeing anything specifically designed for modellers, but you can usually get tutorial packs for most CAD programs. There may be general CAD evening courses at your local college, probably AutoCAD or similar but they may have 3D courses using Solidworks, or similar, probably won't be cheap though.

 

Depending on what you want to do, you can create etch artwork with a vector graphics program, such as Inkscape which has the added bonus of being free, and play around with it.

[stadman]

Not seen anything before but what an excellent idea.

[lyneux]

I wonder if anyone knows of any workshops on the use of CAD in these contexts for model makers?

 

Ian, I will be running a 3D printing workshop at DEMU Showcase in Burton upon Trent this coming June (shameless plug!). I will be focused on using Blender to create 3D models and prepare them for printing. We hope to also be able to run an etching workshop as well during the show.

 

More details here: http://www.demu.org.uk/showcase.php

 

As a society, we also have planned further workshops run by the London Area Group of DEMU to be held in the summer/autumn in London. These will be for DEMU members though.

[clecklewyke]

Thank you for this thought and I hope your workshop goes well, however I think that for many of us oldies it is necessary to walk before we can run. 3D printing is exciting but probably unattainable for those who have never used a CAD package. I would like to start with 2D CAD, drawing maybe some trusses for the overall roof for Bradford North Western or some cottage frontages for laser-cut plastic before trying to make anything in 3D. A workshop in basic CAD would just give me the confidence to make a start on some simple home projects - at the moment I am looking at Sketch-up and have not a clue where to start!

 

Ian

[Pugsley]

Sketchup seems to be mostly aimed at 3d modelling, although can be used for 2D. If it's basic 2D drawing you want to have a go at, try downloading SolidEdge from here:

http://www.plm.automation.siemens.com/en_us/products/velocity/solidedge/free2d/

 

When you download it and open it up, there are tutorials that will take you through the basics of using the package for 2D drawing, which you may find helpful. The fact that it's a parametric program may help you later if you decide to have a go at 3D design.

 

HTH

[Gordon A]

Like clecklewyke I would be interested in a basic 2D CAD workshop with the aim of producing a few etched bits an pieces.

One thing I cannot get my head round is the relationship of the drawn line and the final etched item.

How do you draw the lines so that you end up with an etched item the correct size?

 

I would very much like to sit down with some one who has the patience and knowledge to pass the basic skills on to others.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

[Mark]

Like clecklewyke I would be interested in a basic 2D CAD workshop with the aim of producing a few etched bits an pieces.

One thing I cannot get my head round is the relationship of the drawn line and the final etched item.

How do you draw the lines so that you end up with an etched item the correct size?

 

I would very much like to sit down with some one who has the patience and knowledge to pass the basic skills on to others.

 

Gordon A

Bristol

Gordon,

 

When you draw a shape on cadds, the line represents the boundary of the shape. It doesn't matter how thick the line appears as it is only a graphical representation of a boundary. When the artwork is taken to the etchers and they produce the photo tool from your geometry, all they do is shade in the areas of the shapes you have created. At this point, there is no graphical representation of a line required and the shaded area is exactly the size of the shape you have created. I can expain more later this evening.

 

Regards

 

Mark

[billbedford]

Like clecklewyke I would be interested in a basic 2D CAD workshop with the aim of producing a few etched bits an pieces.

One thing I cannot get my head round is the relationship of the drawn line and the final etched item.

How do you draw the lines so that you end up with an etched item the correct size?

You don't use CAD, you use a graphics package like Illustrator, CorelDraw or even Freehand. In these you can set the line weighs to twice the etching allowance and your etch will (almost) always have the correct relationship to your drawing.

[paul2001]

For an absolute newbie try your local FE college (if not closed due to cuts).

If your a bit more savvy try you tube, I taught myself 3DS Max and Blender.

The clever bit is using it for modelling. Whats the differance between a wine glass and a buffer? Very little when playing with a mesh.

For etching i use Illustrator.

[Revolution Mike]

I think that for many of us oldies it is necessary to walk before we can run. 3D printing is exciting but probably unattainable for those who have never used a CAD package. I would like to start with 2D CAD

 

Hi Ian

 

You don't need to use a CAD package for either 2D or 3D design if you don't want to. Many people design etch work using a vector drawing package eg Illustrator, Coreldraw or Inkscape (free), similarly Blender is a free 3D animation/graphics package that happens to work well for 3D printing.

 

Although they are not traditional CAD packages they may be just as easy to learn / pick up depending on what you want to produce.

 

Having produced my first 3D print recently and just waiting to send off my first etch artwork to PPD I don't think that 3D is any more difficult than 2D to be perfectly honest.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Jol Wilkinson]

Ian,

 

I led the Hobby Holidays course on Etch Kit Design (or whatever we called it) for Phil Atkinson for three years. Phil decided to omit it from this years programme, along with several other courses following a general slowing down in applications. A result of the recession perhaps.

 

From running the course and my experience in designing etched kits for London Road Models, I am aware of a number of issues facing the "beginner".

 

The main etchers in our hobby, Grange and Hodder, PEC and Chempix all follow the same format, both for hand drawn and computer generated artwork. PPD use a slightly different approach. It's important to discuss their preferred format with your etcher before you get too far into it. The less work they have to do to get your artwork into a useable condition, the less it costs. PPD have however made themselves a niche by doing "small" jobs, which suit our needs for one off items.

 

A 2D vector drawing program is what you need for etch artwork. I use CorelDraw, but Illustrator is also suitable. Free or very cheap software can be okay, but it is not unknown for errors to creep in when converting to a file format that the etcher can use. As they operate in a commercial environment, that means they use the major software formats. It's possible to buy older versions of CorelDraw, etc. that are quite upto the job. I started with vesion 7 but am now on version 12. Frankly, CorelDraw 9 was about the best for our needs in my experience (and is still the file version that PEC require).

 

On the HH course we usually found that those participants that arrived with free download 3D software (or even bought stuff) struggled to understand the program, so I usually loaded CorelDraw onto their PCs for the weekend and they were able to produce drawings quite quickly..

 

3D software is not always the best approach for etch artwork - it's less intuitive than 2D in my experience - but does have the benefit of enabling easier production of instruction diagrams, etc. Some user check on accurate fit of components by building a 3D model.

 

Take a look at the Hollywood Foundry "how to papers" http://hollywoodfoun...owToPapers.shtm for some sensible guidance. However, there is still a touch of "trial by experience" when designing artwork, so unless it is a very simple item, you may need one or two goes to get it right.

 

Jol

[Pugsley]

Having produced my first 3D print recently and just waiting to send off my first etch artwork to PPD I don't think that 3D is any more difficult than 2D to be perfectly honest.

I found the hardest part of creating 3D designs was actually thinking about things in 3D, instead of trying to break them down into 2D shapes, if you see what I mean. I think this is only because I'd done a bit of etching before, it might have been a bit easier if I'd gone straight to it.

[stadman]

Ian, I will be running a 3D printing workshop at DEMU Showcase in Burton upon Trent this coming June (shameless plug!). I will be focused on using Blender to create 3D models and prepare them for printing. We hope to also be able to run an etching workshop as well during the show.

 

More details here: http://www.demu.org.uk/showcase.php

 

As a society, we also have planned further workshops run by the London Area Group of DEMU to be held in the summer/autumn in London. These will be for DEMU members though.

 

Not far from station, tempting if I am off that weekend/ day

[JohnBateson]

In the range of kits I produce there are now a number of 3D Printed parts. May I offer some thoughts ...

 

There are all sorts of ways of getting started in this field but I would strongly recommend a full CAD package and doing the drawings in 3D as a first step. This has a startup cost in both time and money but in the longer run you get your time and money back many-fold.

I also do the 3D drawings at full scale. The locomotives have over 25 layers in the drawings but at least I can see that all the parts fit correctly and there are no overlaps - but see below. This is the easiest way to use official drawings etc and there is an instant cross check.

 

Some of the suggestions I read here and elsewhere I would not consider as useful bits of IT, they will always run out of steam in their capabilities if you are serious about using 3D printing.

Consider also the computer you intend to use. It needs more power than the cheaper versions on sale at the moment, probably an Intel i5 or equivalent if you want to be able to render the drawing (produce a picture) and wander through the drawing looking at how things fit.

Once a drawing is completed, if it is brass etches you need then it is relatively easy to select a part such as a fire-box and 'unfold' it from the 3D drawing so that it becomes a 2D part (which is what we need to send to the etchers).

 

Even at the component level such as axle boxes, there is enough complexity there to test a small computer.

The attached picture shows some 3D p0rinted reversers I had delivered recently. While it is possibly to achieve all sorts of complexity such as washers and nuts they can look quite disappointing unless done in the most expensive plastic available - or fuzzy as some on here have said.

 

What I have found to be extremely valuable from my perspective is that by starting with the drawings in 3D at full size it is now relatively simple to scale them to 4 mm, 3mm 10 mm etc and somebody I am working with may well take advantage of that in 7 mm and 10 mm, he has managed to easily scale and produce a set of tools for 7mm and 10 mm versions of my original 4mm locomotive.

 

John

[chrisjward]

Interesting, one place you can try is your local college for night school, or even the library for information on local courses

You will all heard of AutoCAD, well have a look at 123D.com

best rgds chrisJward

[cjlangdon]

We are running a course on CAD/laser cutting at the Autumn Missenden Railway Modellers Weekend. Should fit your requiemtns exactly. Details at www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk

 

C J Langdon

I am becoming more and more aware of the potential for modelling of technologies such as laser cutting, three dimension printing, and not forgetting photo-etching. All of these depend on a basic knowledge of CAD to produce the data from which the final products are made. I wonder if anyone knows of any workshops on the use of CAD in these contexts for model makers?

Many modellers need to make repeat runs of simple things like platform canopy brackets, roof trusses etc., for which the ideal medium is etched brass. Many are also designing buildings which are produced by laser cutting of wood or plastic. A few are beginning to use 3D printing for all sorts of things, including loco bodies or components to modify RTR models.

I think that these new technologies will soon become commonplace and few of us will continue to cut lacy bits of pasticard or fabricate complex shapes from bits of brass. We will mostly produce a CAD file which we either send to our own 3D printer or laser cutter or to a shop providing the service.

I am conscious of being left behind what is rapidly becoming the mainstream of finescale modellers. Can you help, please?

Ian

[Jol Wilkinson]

We are running a course on CAD/laser cutting at the Autumn Missenden Railway Modellers Weekend. Should fit your requiemtns exactly. Details at www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk

 

C J Langdon

 

Hobby Holidays are also running a course in August on CAD design http://www.hobbyholidays.co.uk/mworkshops.php

 

Although intended to cover artwork for metal etching, laser cutting artwork is similar.

[clecklewyke]

Many thanks to you both. I'll start counting the pennies and checking my diary.

 

Ian

[Etched Pixels]

I generally avoid 'CAD' tools for 2D work. It's easier to work with drawing tools in many cases, and for many parts far easier still to simply write programs to produce them. Life is too short to sit drawing coach sides when the computer can be told the layout of the coach, panelling and the type of windows and get on with it !

 

Another thing I'd suggest if you want to learn etching is to make some print your own card models, and indeed design yourself some. Cardboard and etch have very similar properties in terms of folding and shaping limitations, and many of the same techniques apply to both. It's also a *lot* cheaper. You can prototype test etches this way in photo paper and at least see if it seems about right.

 

For 3D printing I use OpenSCAD and custom tools that produce openscad files. Thats a brilliant way of working *if* your background is computer programming (or perhaps also mathematical), but probably not otherwise. I played with a few other tools but found them mostly annoying or in the case of Blender both impenetrably weird and not suited for the task.

 

Might also be worth seeing if you have a local hackspace/3d printing group.

 

Alan

[Jol Wilkinson]

I generally avoid 'CAD' tools for 2D work. It's easier to work with drawing tools in many cases, and for many parts far easier still to simply write programs to produce them. Life is too short to sit drawing coach sides when the computer can be told the layout of the coach, panelling and the type of windows and get on with it !

 

Another thing I'd suggest if you want to learn etching is to make some print your own card models, and indeed design yourself some. Cardboard and etch have very similar properties in terms of folding and shaping limitations, and many of the same techniques apply to both. It's also a *lot* cheaper. You can prototype test etches this way in photo paper and at least see if it seems about right.

 

For 3D printing I use OpenSCAD and custom tools that produce openscad files. Thats a brilliant way of working *if* your background is computer programming (or perhaps also mathematical), but probably not otherwise. I played with a few other tools but found them mostly annoying or in the case of Blender both impenetrably weird and not suited for the task.

 

Might also be worth seeing if you have a local hackspace/3d printing group.

 

Alan

 

 

Alan

 

I completely agree that 2D is all you need for etch and laser artwork. Unfortunately the idea of 3D software seems to dazzle people who think that t's the only way to do it. But then people buy large expensive and powerful 4x4s and only go to the shops in them, so I suppose it's only to be expected.

 

I use CorelDraw 14, but version 9 which I started with is more than adequate.

 

Jol

[Pugsley]

I'd never suggest that 3D CAD was the only way to do things, but I've found the ability to draw parts in a 3D program that can unfold them to a flat shape invaluable when dealing with complex shaped parts. It's also a way of checking fits without having to go through several test etches, and saves a lot of time for me.

 

For relatively simple parts, I'd use CorelDraw every time.

[Jol Wilkinson]

I'd never suggest that 3D CAD was the only way to do things, but I've found the ability to draw parts in a 3D program that can unfold them to a flat shape invaluable when dealing with complex shaped parts. It's also a way of checking fits without having to go through several test etches, and saves a lot of time for me.

Valid point. However, I've found that most people can get the hang of decent 2D software fairly quickly but 3D takes usually rather longer. The time spent in calculation the dimensions of some of those complicated parts, such as curved (humped) running plates, boiler cut-outs to clear 00 wheels, is probably a lot less than the time you would spend learning to use AutoCad Lite sufficiently.

 

As Etched Pixels suggested, it's also a good idea to build a card model from your early design work. It certainly helps to visualise how the model will go together.

 

Jol

[cjlangdon]

I am becoming more and more aware of the potential for modelling of technologies such as laser cutting, three dimension printing, and not forgetting photo-etching. All of these depend on a basic knowledge of CAD to produce the data from which the final products are made. I wonder if anyone knows of any workshops on the use of CAD in these contexts for model makers?

 

Many modellers need to make repeat runs of simple things like platform canopy brackets, roof trusses etc., for which the ideal medium is etched brass. Many are also designing buildings which are produced by laser cutting of wood or plastic. A few are beginning to use 3D printing for all sorts of things, including loco bodies or components to modify RTR models.

 

I think that these new technologies will soon become commonplace and few of us will continue to cut lacy bits of pasticard or fabricate complex shapes from bits of brass. We will mostly produce a CAD file which we either send to our own 3D printer or laser cutter or to a shop providing the service.

 

I am conscious of being left behind what is rapidly becoming the mainstream of finescale modellers. Can you help, please?

 

Ian

We have run courses on CAD, Laser cutting, PCB layouts  and 3D printing. Clearly there is a need for more and we will do more CAD and 3 D printing in our Autumn weekend at Missenden Abbey.

 

Please look at our website.

 

 

Christopher Langdon

Course Organiser

Missenden Abbey Railway Modelling Weekends

www.missendenrailwaymodellers.org.uk

[farren]

i am on a Auto CAD course at  college of FE doing 2 hours a week on Tuesday evening. it's not cheap and you will have to pay full price no matter what. course is a City & Guilds Autocad its 3 1,year courses  the frist year has 5 exams i think the second year is the same. both  1st &2nd years are 2D work  3rd year we will be doing 3D. with the course you get the Full Auto Cad package with on line help and storage. it Dose have a time Bomb so no keeping the £6,500 program. the other down side is the cost £750 for each year