Scalecraft Roadrailer

[Porcy Mane]

 I will check my Roadrailer photos, but would welcome sight of the ones to which you have access.

You'll not be surprised at how many people ask that.

 

Christmas and New year is getting in the way of things at the moment. I'll try doing a fuller reply when I get a bit more spare time.

 

In the meantime you'll have seen Mr Fords Corby Glen photo in this post:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-26th-december/page-119&do=findComment&comment=1863818

 

Zooming into the large version you can see that the numbers are in red on the nearest boxes. Well you can on a 24" monitor.

 

P

[Porcy Mane]

These are all the references that I can find to Roadrailers in Railway Modeller:

I think I have most of the early published "stuff" on Roadrailer (model & prototype) This was just a bit of it.

 

Taken some nine of ten years ago.

 

P

[BrushVeteran]

My interest in the Roadrailer and the provision of a 'new' model go's back to my childhood and to 1959/60 when I lived in South Avenue, Kidlington. For a period of several weeks an articulated lorry of BRS, Oxford, on trade plates, would drive down our road and park at the bottom. Attached to the back of the Bristol unit was a trailer with ROADRAILER on a panel at the back and it was parked outside the house belonging to Ken Gadd, who I later found out was the Pressed Steel Southern Engineer for the BRS/Pressed Steel Roadrailer project. I actually used to walk to school with his daughter.

10 years later I went to work for my local garage on a part time basis, working mainly on commercial vehicles and buses. My 'boss' was Arthur ('Archie') Prince who, during the course of my employment there, told me his life history and the fact that he had worked for Pressed Steel at Oxford and been seconded to Linwood, near Paisley, to help with the testing of the Roadrailer train, which was built there. He used to have to travel inside the box vans whilst on the rails and do certain structural tests. He also mentioned to me that he was inside a trailer when it was involved in a derailment and subsequent 'pile up', i think, somewhere near Hitchin. As a result of this the project came to a halt as it transpired that the trailers were too light for high speed rail use and the use of compressed air to enable the 'mode changeover' was not suited to every depot. Apparently the road-tractor unit at the time could only deliver a maximum of 120 psi which was far below the pressure required to effect the mode changeover. Also whist I worked there I was invited out for a meal where I met Ken Gadd, who also remembered me from my time with his daughter, and invited me to look at a future date to look at some photographs of the Roadrailer project. Of course all those years ago there was not the apparent interest there is now. The point of my post is the co-incidence of the fact that I knew two important people involved with the project and this has re-kindled my interest in the subject.

Unfortunately Archie Prince was very ill last time I had contact through my mother, and had moved to Spain. I doubt whether there is any further technical information that could have been provided to what we currently have but it seems fateful that my interest should be aroused once again by the postings on this thread. As a result of this I myself have begun to gather information, pictures and drawings with a view to modelling. As I am now in a position to recommend future model subjects to a well respected model manufacturer I am obviously looking to see if there is any potential in getting this model produced in the future. It is a great shame that the prototype never operated as a revenue operation but the concept was a great step forward and now would deem relatively simple with today's technology. I shall continue to watch this thread with interest and call on those posters on here with drawings, photos and information should I be able to take the plunge into further development.

 

Two questions  A) how many trailers in a train (I have counted up to 15)?

                          B) how many types of trailer were there (I think 3)?

 

Sorry if I have warbled on a bit but thought I ought to explain my connection and interest. 

Edited December 27, 2015 by BrushVeteran

[cctransuk]

My interest in the Roadrailer and the provision of a 'new' model go's back to my childhood and to 1959/60 when I lived in South Avenue, Kidlington. For a period of several weeks an articulated lorry of BRS, Oxford, on trade plates, would drive down our road and park at the bottom. Attached to the back of the Bristol unit was a trailer with ROADRAILER on a panel at the back and it was parked outside the house belonging to Ken Gadd, who I later found out was the Pressed Steel Southern Engineer for the BRS/Pressed Steel Roadrailer project. I actually used to walk to school with his daughter.

10 years later I went to work for my local garage on a part time basis, working mainly on commercial vehicles and buses. My 'boss' was Authur ('Archie') Prince who, during the course of my employment there, told me his life history and the fact that he had worked for Pressed Steel at Oxford and been seconded to Linwood, near Paisley, to help with the testing of the Roadrailer train, which was built there. He used to have to travel inside the box vans whilst on the rails and do certain structural tests. He also mentioned to me that he was inside a trailer when it was involved in a derailment and subsequent 'pile up', i think, somewhere near Hitchin. As a result of this the project came to a halt as it transpired that the trailers were too light for high speed rail use and the use of compressed air to enable the 'mode changeover' was not suited to every depot. Apparently the road-tractor unit at the time could only deliver a maximum of 120 psi which was far below the pressure required to effect the mode changeover. Also whist I worked there I was invited out for a meal where I met Ken Gadd, who also remembered me from my time with his daughter, and invited me to look at a future date to look at some photographs of the Roadrailer project. Of course all those years ago there was not the apparent interest there is now. The point of my post is the co-incidence of the fact that I knew two important people involved with the project and this has re-kindled my interest in the subject.

Unfortunately Archie Prince was very ill last time I had contact through my mother, and had moved to Spain. I doubt whether there is any further technical information that could have been provided to what we currently have but it seems fateful that my interest should be aroused once again by the postings on this thread. As a result of this I myself have begun to gather information, pictures and drawings with a view to modelling. As I am now in a position to recommend future model subjects to a well respected model manufacturer I am obviously looking to see if there is any potential in getting this model produced in the future. It is a great shame that the prototype never operated as a revenue operation but the concept was a great step forward and now would deem relatively simple with today's technology. I shall continue to watch this thread with interest and call on those posters on here with drawings, photos and information should I be able to take the plunge into further development.

 

Two questions  A) how many trailers in a train (I have counted up to 15)?

                          B) how many types of trailer were there (I think 3)?

 

Sorry if I have warbled on a bit but thought I ought to explain my connection and interest. 

 

To the best of my knowledge, only two types of trailer were built; box vans and a single open low-sided version. There were, however, detailed differences between the two prototype box vans and the production ones; (look closely at the construction of the rail wheel sideframes, for instance).

 

Artists impressions of the time certainly indicate the intention to produce a tank trailer version, but I don't believe that this materialised.

 

Even the open trailer is a little mythical, because it is not recorded in BR records as having a diagram or lot number allocated.

 

I have to say that I am a little wary at the prospect of an RTR Roadrailer. Are there really enough modellers around who would want a rake of these? I know that there were similar doubts about the Blue Pullmans, but they did have a significant service life, unlike the Roadrailers.

 

I would have thought that a new version of the kit from, say, Parkside or Cambrian, would be adequate to fulfil demand for such a niche product.

 

I will check my Roadrailer archive when I get home to see if there is anything that I can add.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[DaveF]

You'll not be surprised at how many people ask that.

 

Christmas and New year is getting in the way of things at the moment. I'll try doing a fuller reply when I get a bit more spare time.

 

In the meantime you'll have seen Mr Fords Corby Glen photo in this post:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/85326-dave-fs-photos-ongoing-more-added-26th-december/page-119&do=findComment&comment=1863818

 

Zooming into the large version you can see that the numbers are in red on the nearest boxes. Well you can on a 24" monitor.

 

P

 

I thought it might be simpler to post the photo here rather than asking people to follow a link.   I have taken a new copy from the original scan which is a bit clearer, I've also enlarged the wagons in a second copy of the image - any further enlargement and they are even more pixellated. 

 

The photo was taken purely by chance - dad and I just happened to at Corby Glen on one of the very few days hat the train ran.

 

Corby Glen Brush Type 4 D1516 up Roadrailers 11th April 63 J039

 

 

enlargement

 

David

Edited December 27, 2015 by DaveF

[BrushVeteran]

To the best of my knowledge, only two types of trailer were built; box vans and a single open low-sided version. There were, however, detailed differences between the two prototype box vans and the production ones; (look closely at the construction of the rail wheel sideframes, for instance).

 

Artists impressions of the time certainly indicate the intention to produce a tank trailer version, but I don't believe that this materialised.

 

Even the open trailer is a little mythical, because it is not recorded in BR records as having a diagram or lot number allocated.

 

I have to say that I am a little wary at the prospect of an RTR Roadrailer. Are there really enough modellers around who would want a rake of these? I know that there were similar doubts about the Blue Pullmans, but they did have a significant service life, unlike the Roadrailers.

 

I would have thought that a new version of the kit from, say, Parkside or Cambrian, would be adequate to fulfil demand for such a niche product.

 

I will check my Roadrailer archive when I get home to see if there is anything that I can add.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

I'm inclined to whole-heartedly agree with you John but this thread is getting more interesting and I thought I should declare my interest from the outset. You would need to produce at least 3000 from one tool to make it viable and that is 200 people buying 15 trailers each, as you say a bit risky.

 

I have also read that Ken Gadd passed away in 2013 aged 84 and amongst his creditations by his daughter Karen in his obituary, I quote "He brought drive and humour to everything he did, enjoying a meteoric rise first as an engineer for British Railways and then, from 1958, with the manufacturing company Pressed Steel in Cowley, Oxford. There he led the work of an innovative goods vehicle, the RoadRailer, which could run both on rail and roads; it was hailed the answer to road congestion and keeping lorries to a minimum." There we go he could of been a hero! Ken was in fact an apprentice Southern Railway engineer.

 

Keep this thread alive!

[ColinK]

I like the suggestion of a Parkside or Cambrian kit. Hope they are reading this.

[Porcy Mane]

Quick one whilst I've got a spare 5 minutes. Most of you may have already  have seen it.

The prototype boxes on test.  In the film the boxes have already undergone some strengthening work after failing MIRA  SMMT  testing at Oxford. The bodies cracked and wheel Hubs/nuts failed on their fist road journey whist being driven from Scotland to Oxford. It was also found that in road use the trailers would tip over laterally when stationary on roads with near standard cant, guttering and drainage crowns. 

In the film the Roadrailer is seen crossing Stebbing Road between Rayne and Great Dunmore.

 

Zip forward to 1' 40".

 

P

 

Edit:

B*ll*cks. Should have read through my own post from earlier in the thread before posting.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54465-scalecraft-roadrailer/&do=findComment&comment=656938

Edited December 27, 2015 by Porcy Mane

[BrushVeteran]

Further to my posts #53 & #56 I have extracted a correction from LNER Forum where there had also been a thread involving the Roadrailer :-

 

"The derailment that stopped the trials was at Stukeley. I don't have a date but it was probably in 1963 as B840008 seems to have destroyed as a result. The remaining 51 Covered Trailers and 2 flats received a coupling modification which may give a clue as to what the cause was."

 

I'm sure they wont mid me reproducing the extract
 

[Porcy Mane]

Further to my posts #53 & #56 I have extracted a correction from LNER Forum where there had also been a thread involving the Roadrailer :-

 

I have read in from contemporary railway press of the time that the derailment was caused by a socket coupling failure. I can't remember the publication but will see if I can dig it out once the festivities are over.

Another factor in Roadrailers failure  was British Road Services resistance too it's introduction. Ironically BRS was one off the partners in it's development but they saw it as a threat. One of the fist companies to sign a contract to use Roadrailer was a Firm local to me. Their contracted hauliers supported the use of Roadrailer although it meant the loss of one of their long distance A type haulage licences as BRS objected. 

 

P

[BrushVeteran]

The failure of the Roadrailer project also put the final nail in the coffin for the Bristol HA tractor unit, the last units being produced in 1963. BRS was a conscripted purchaser of this vehicle as a THC manufacturer and their reluctance to convince their unions had far reaching effects on other employees in the same type of work.

[jonhall]

The NRM's roadrailer file which I looked at a couple of years ago had quite a lot of detail on the investigation into the way it sat when on road wheelosm, but it had been very badly water damaged.

 

Jon

[mikeharvey22]

There was also the Minic Motorways Roadrailer sets.

 

http://minicmotorways.weebly.com/road--rail-vehicles.html

Edited September 14, 2016 by mikeharvey22

[John M]

The New Zealand Railway Corporation and later Tranz Rail regularly operated RoadRailers for the best part of 10 years during the 1990s. The New Zealand Roadrailers were basically a 40' curtain sider trailer running on adapted 3'6" freight bogies and based on the Thrall MK3 Roadrailer. . http://www.kiwibonds.com/NZRollingStock/Frame.html

 

http--www.kiwibonds.com-NZRollingStock-RR%20Roadrailers%20on%20train%20Paraparamu%20Early%201990s%20-%20Darryl%20K%20Bond.jpg

 

The RoadRailers appear to have been an attempt to compete with road transport for long distance time sensitive door to door traffic, customers included a large supermarket chain, food manufacturers and fruit processors. Apart from the issue of a higher tare weight than an ordinary trailer, rail appears to have been less reliable than road and its alleged that an insulated trailer was driven under a low bridge to ensure the traffic remained on the road.

 

One of the more interesting uses of the trailers was on the "Bay Raider" express freight services between Auckland-Napier & Gisborne, where traffic was conveyed by a combination of road and rail through Rotorua rather than the longer all rail-route via Palmerston North to provide an overnight service to Hawkes Bay. Traffic was railed between Auckland & Rotorua and transported onwards by road to Napier & Gisborne.

 

This traffic went over to containers after a couple of years before freight services to Rotorua were discontinued in 1999, in their final years the Roadrailers were used as ordinary wagons in long distance traffic carrying sawn timber that was too long to fit in a standard van and were withdrawn late in 1999 just under 10 years since the first unit entered service.

 

Christchurch Model Supplier produced a Sn3.5 Roadrailer kit about 10 years ago with an ERTL tractor unit.

 

I think the failure of the Roadrailer to develop is tied up more with rails loss of the once profitable sundries and express business to road competition following the ending of a strictly regulated transport environment rather than the superiority of the ISO container which tends to be used more in deepsea rather than domestic freight traffic.

Edited October 1, 2016 by John M

[jrg1]

A great sample of archive film.  If anyone is interested in producing the Roadrailer, I would certainly buy a batch.

Quick one whilst I've got a spare 5 minutes. Most of you may have already  have seen it.

The prototype boxes on test.  In the film the boxes have already undergone some strengthening work after failing MIRA  SMMT  testing at Oxford. The bodies cracked and wheel Hubs/nuts failed on their fist road journey whist being driven from Scotland to Oxford. It was also found that in road use the trailers would tip over laterally when stationary on roads with near standard cant, guttering and drainage crowns. 

In the film the Roadrailer is seen crossing Stebbing Road between Rayne and Great Dunmore.

 

Zip forward to 1' 40".

 

P

XmasSmileSmr2.png

 

Edit:

B*ll*cks. Should have read through my own post from earlier in the thread before posting.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54465-scalecraft-roadrailer/&do=findComment&comment=656938

I see from the film that the road wheels were recessed in the van-the Scalecraft model seems incorrect in this respect.  If there is interest in producing Roadrailer models, I would buy a batch.

[PhilJ W]

A great sample of archive film.  If anyone is interested in producing the Roadrailer, I would certainly buy a batch.

Quick one whilst I've got a spare 5 minutes. Most of you may have already  have seen it.

The prototype boxes on test.  In the film the boxes have already undergone some strengthening work after failing MIRA  SMMT  testing at Oxford. The bodies cracked and wheel Hubs/nuts failed on their fist road journey whist being driven from Scotland to Oxford. It was also found that in road use the trailers would tip over laterally when stationary on roads with near standard cant, guttering and drainage crowns. 

In the film the Roadrailer is seen crossing Stebbing Road between Rayne and Great Dunmore.

 

Zip forward to 1' 40".

 

P

XmasSmileSmr2.png

 

Edit:

B*ll*cks. Should have read through my own post from earlier in the thread before posting.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54465-scalecraft-roadrailer/&do=findComment&comment=656938

I see from the film that the road wheels were recessed in the van-the Scalecraft model seems incorrect in this respect.  If there is interest in producing Roadrailer models, I would buy a batch.

They are not recessed inside the van, they are behind the rear crossmember which has the bottom edge tapering upwards very much like a Landrover rear crossmember.

[Porcy Mane]

A great sample of archive film.  If anyone is interested in producing the Roadrailer, I would certainly buy a batch.

 

Quick one whilst I've got a spare 5 minutes. Most of you may have already  have seen it.

The prototype boxes on test.  In the film the boxes have already undergone some strengthening work after failing MIRA  SMMT  testing at Oxford. The bodies cracked and wheel Hubs/nuts failed on their fist road journey whist being driven from Scotland to Oxford. It was also found that in road use the trailers would tip over laterally when stationary on roads with near standard cant, guttering and drainage crowns. 

In the film the Roadrailer is seen crossing Stebbing Road between Rayne and Great Dunmore.

 

Zip forward to 1' 40".

 

P

XmasSmileSmr2.png

 

Edit:

B*ll*cks. Should have read through my own post from earlier in the thread before posting.

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/54465-scalecraft-roadrailer/&do=findComment&comment=656938

 

I see from the film that the road wheels were recessed in the van-the Scalecraft model seems incorrect in this respect.  If there is interest in producing Roadrailer models, I would buy a batch.

 

Hmmm. That post was confusing. I thought I'd read that lot somewhere before.  

Quote button not working properly?

 

They are not recessed inside the van, they are behind the rear crossmember which has the bottom edge tapering upwards very much like a Landrover rear crossmember.

 

I think I get his gist.

 

 

P

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Porcy Mane

[jrg1]

Apologies-not sure how that was mangled at all.  Thanks forclarifying the wheel retracted position.

[PhilJ W]

It looks as if the wheels when retracted are hard up against the underside of the floor.

[Mr_Tilt]

My interest in the Roadrailer and the provision of a 'new' model go's back to my childhood and to 1959/60 when I lived in South Avenue, Kidlington. For a period of several weeks an articulated lorry of BRS, Oxford, on trade plates, would drive down our road and park at the bottom. Attached to the back of the Bristol unit was a trailer with ROADRAILER on a panel at the back and it was parked outside the house belonging to Ken Gadd, who I later found out was the Pressed Steel Southern Engineer for the BRS/Pressed Steel Roadrailer project. I actually used to walk to school with his daughter.

10 years later I went to work for my local garage on a part time basis, working mainly on commercial vehicles and buses. My 'boss' was Arthur ('Archie') Prince who, during the course of my employment there, told me his life history and the fact that he had worked for Pressed Steel at Oxford and been seconded to Linwood, near Paisley, to help with the testing of the Roadrailer train, which was built there. He used to have to travel inside the box vans whilst on the rails and do certain structural tests. He also mentioned to me that he was inside a trailer when it was involved in a derailment and subsequent 'pile up', i think, somewhere near Hitchin. As a result of this the project came to a halt as it transpired that the trailers were too light for high speed rail use and the use of compressed air to enable the 'mode changeover' was not suited to every depot. Apparently the road-tractor unit at the time could only deliver a maximum of 120 psi which was far below the pressure required to effect the mode changeover. Also whist I worked there I was invited out for a meal where I met Ken Gadd, who also remembered me from my time with his daughter, and invited me to look at a future date to look at some photographs of the Roadrailer project. Of course all those years ago there was not the apparent interest there is now. The point of my post is the co-incidence of the fact that I knew two important people involved with the project and this has re-kindled my interest in the subject.

Unfortunately Archie Prince was very ill last time I had contact through my mother, and had moved to Spain. I doubt whether there is any further technical information that could have been provided to what we currently have but it seems fateful that my interest should be aroused once again by the postings on this thread. As a result of this I myself have begun to gather information, pictures and drawings with a view to modelling. As I am now in a position to recommend future model subjects to a well respected model manufacturer I am obviously looking to see if there is any potential in getting this model produced in the future. It is a great shame that the prototype never operated as a revenue operation but the concept was a great step forward and now would deem relatively simple with today's technology. I shall continue to watch this thread with interest and call on those posters on here with drawings, photos and information should I be able to take the plunge into further development.

 

Two questions  A) how many trailers in a train (I have counted up to 15)?

                          B) how many types of trailer were there (I think 3)?

 

Sorry if I have warbled on a bit but thought I ought to explain my connection and interest. 

 

Small world time.

 

Prior to my time with BR on the APT project I was a student apprentice at Pressed Steel in the 60s, and I knew both Ken Gadd and Archie Prince!  

 

Luckily for me I was PS's first R&D apprentice and that gave me lots of experience in strange and wonderful aspects of engineering that stood me in good stead later on in life. Part of that experience was working on the Roadrailer........

 

We did the structural tests on the RoadRailers at PS's Cowley plant, which was on the same site where the BMW Minis are built these days. The two prototypes were quite a bit different to the production ones as I recall, and were one bay shorter and had flat roofs to start with, like the Chesapeake & Ohio originals. I'm not quite sure when they were modified to production standard, but it must have been pretty soon after our strength tests as they failed seriously! There were problems with the dual wheel chassis having too much deflection relative to the body shell, and the shell itself twisted far too much during torsion tests.

 

Later on we tested one of the flats too, the one with the hoop at the front end, but it didn't have side boards when we were testing it. We had some drawings of a tanker version and a much higher sided wagon version too, but I never saw any like that or tested them.

 

I did get the chance to ride on one of the test trips out of Stratford Yard  up to March in Cambridgshire, and we were in the last car as Ken Gadd described and the ride was diabolical! There was a  BR test car on the front of the train, powered by a 31 IIRC, and it was much more comfortable in there on the return trip!

 

We did a demonstration of the RoadRailer at the PS plant for the Duke of Edinburgh late in 1961 or early '62 I think, using the two prototypes, and Pete Surman, one of the other test engineers, and I did the wheel changeover. During the second change the air hose adaptor failed and the hose flew about all over the place behind the vehicle and I dived on top of it to stop it. The Duke grinned and said 'Sometimes things just don't go to plan, do they?' 

 

Fond memories, and I've built a set of the various versions myself too.

 

[Porcy Mane]

I have seen a photograph of the rear roadrailer wagon used on the ECML tests. It shows it  with the drop flap still fitted but doors removed and a lashed up vacuum release lever and gauge mechanism.

I assume (probably incorrectly) a guard must have been travelling in the rear container for the vacuum lever and gauge to be fitted? 

 

P

[Mr_Tilt]

You guessed right, we had a guard with us in the rear vehicle on the single test run I did.

 

I can't remember a brake handle but logic says there must have been one. I was attending to the strain gauge amplifiers and UV recorder that we had aboard, and that kept me fairly busy. They had similar test gear in the Test Car as well, but the cables would have been far too long to monitor the loads in the last vehicle. I can't remember how many RRs we had on the train but it was the majority of the 50 production RRs that were built, maybe 40 or so?

[locomad]

 I found one recently original Scalecraft kit, I think I purchased it about 1972 bagged with 19p on front cover, having built the boxed version, trailer, rail truck and lorry I decided to build another recently and compare the my modelling standard over 50 years.

 

Quite enjoyed building it one of those done and completed jobs in one evening, this time followed the written instructions and discovered that the rear doors don't need glueing its a push fit so one can open the doors. Ive a few brought at toy fairs built for us so never knew this.

 

Kit itself was quite easy everything seemed to fit together.

 

Silver paint was from the same tin I brought 55 years ago, some reason gold and silver never seems to go off, one built 50 years ago faded a bit

[locomad]

 

 

[73c]

Probably all the lead in the paint!