Careful with cars!

[Black Sheep]

I'm having a Moggy on my modern layout, because I've got a real one......... (Although it does need making roadworthy at the mo - modelling is getting in the way................)

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

As I said before, classic cars do still show up on the road.

 

there is a MK2 Cortina parks on the road just round the corner from my house, old mini's pop up everywhere, there's a Morris minor often to be seen in the car park of my local sainsburys

 

however, for the hand full of classics I see in one day I see 1000 Corsa's, Yaris, clio, micra, focus etc.

 

A busy road / traffic jam above new st station (to borrow a city centre example) looks more correct than empty roads (unless there is a Zombie apocalipse going on), however (to tighten the example again) if the layout is set in the 80's above BR Blue locos then most of the vehicles should be MK2 transits, capri and Mk 2 and 3 escorts, possibly some older every day cars such as mk3 cortina's but the odd morris minor, or a Ford Anglia wouldn't be out of place, someone just happens to be fond of their older cars.

 

I have seen a modern image layout where most cars pre-date myself

[Guest Max Stafford]

By the '80s you'd expect to see an equal number of Japanese, German and Italian machines about too. Probably a good few Ladas as well!

 

Dave.

[Ian J.]

Going a bit OT, if anyone ever catches the series 'Caprica' (the one season spin-off from the recent 'Battlestar Galactica' re-imagining) there are a number of classic as well as contemporary cars from Earth, apparently on another planet on the other side of the galaxy some hundred and fifty thousand years in the past! But apart from the classic Citroen DS there is a Morris Minor to be seen as well, in one shot quite prominently. So if they can 'exist' on other planets so far in the past I reckon they can appear on pretty much any layout at any time

[BernardTPM]

In the film version of 'The Borrowers' the alternatve reality Britain(?) was a place that only had Morris Minors - well, almost only - if you were wealthy or important enough you could get the big MO Oxford (A subtle touch, perhaps entirely missed by most of the audience, I'd guess!).

Minors are still seen around; they must be the classic 'classic' car, partcularly the Traveller - there's one near West Ham Park, for example.

[Guest jim s-w]

Hi All

 

If your interest is 1980s cars then this is very handy

 

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[alastairq]

hi..................during the '80's I was driving buses....not in Brum, happily!

 

I do recall, by the mid-late 80's the mini was becoming rarer on the roads.....for sure they were still being made, but I think they had by then started to acquire a chic/style image.

 

As distinct from one of being a practical small family car.

 

The small hatchback had come of age by then.

 

Fiesta, Metro, Golf, and the offerings from Renault....people didn't really want a mini any more.

 

Marina had acquired a banger status by then....having been usurped by the likes of Maestro, et al.

 

But what I do remember is, how various parts of the country had particular brand loyalties.

 

Birmingham naturally seemed to gravitate towards the products of Longbridge, for example.

 

Which is not to say other makers were scarce...far from it [sales figures for each model/maker may well prove otherwise?}...just a perception I got travelling around...[for a living]...

 

certainly there seemed to be a more obvious predominance of ex-BMC products there than up where I lived.

 

Morris minors were around, to be sure...but not in the sorts of numbers that make a car blend into the background. [notice the absence today of RWD Vauxhall Cavs? Two a penny on the roads back in the early '90's!]}

 

The appeal of the Morris Minor back then started to lie with a totally different age group. They started to become the cheap motor of choice for older drivers, probably because of the ease with which us stiffies could get in and out of one?

 

Certainly they were not the choice of the cred-conscious young driver!

 

So for me, a station car park of that era would have a predominance of small hatchbacks.....?

[Guest jim s-w]

 

Birmingham naturally seemed to gravitate towards the products of Longbridge, for example.

 

 

Most certainly - I am led to believe that longbridge workers got a discounted rate on cars thus there were more than the national average. Same applied to Sherpa's over Ford Transits.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Interesting topic this. bear in mind though that cars started to be fairly commonplace in the 1920's but were far from perfect. The 1930's saw the start of some iconic manufacturers as the populace became aware of the advantages of mechanised transport against the horse and cart of yesteryear.

 

This nascent industry was denied to the public by the Great Depression of the thirties and petrol rationing during the war. These thirties built cars though were more sturdy and many were mothballed and brought out after the war to be used again. My family acquired and wore out a number of them, a Lanchester being a prime example.

 

Very few of these cars are modelled as they are quite difficult to cast successfully and at a commercial price. they are also a limited market.

 

The Morris Minor was a pioneer of the monocoque all steel construction and was considered very modern in its day competing with the Ford and Morris which were basically the pre war shelved chassis designs. In all these cars the engine was the expendable item and the bodywork would survive several engines and quite a lot of running gear maintenance and changes. Synchromesh gearboxes were sometimes only from second or third gear upwards and all were no more than four speed anyway. It was a rare car and an expensive one that could exceed 60mph. All the post war all pressed steel cars were rust buckets and few survived very long as a result. Vauxhalls were particularly bad.

 

I think the Morris Minor survived until at least 1967 ( I had one as a company car in 1969 ) and they were considered old fashioned by then and were rapidly being phased out due to the runaway success of the Mini. It has to born in mind though that the Mini had the original Minor engine in it turned sideways and with a brand new gearbox and drive system. That engine survived into the Mini Metro.

 

The introduction of the MOT test in the late sixties put paid to most of the pre war and early post war cars.

 

For the purposes of railway modelling though it has to be born in mind that up to the end of steam many of the cars on the road were quite a bit older in years than we look at today. Twenty and even thirty year old cars were quite common on the roads back then.

 

Part of the reasons for this are based on my own experience of the finance market at that time but that is way off topic.

[Rugd1022]

A good point raised there re the Longbridge stuff, and most of the workers who did buy such cars at a discount had poverty spec versions too, with the management going for the posh Rovers etc.

 

The proliferation of 'classic' Minis on layouts of different scales is very noticable, not surprising really as over 5.5 million were built between 1959 and 2000. The ones we see on layouts though all seem to have white roofs, but in reality most didn't! Not all Minis with white roofs were Coopers, and not all Coopers had white roofs....

 

Pedant mode off!

[alastairq]

not surprising really as over 5.5 million were built between 1959 and 2000.

.......sadly, unlike some notable exceptions, although production numbers were high, so was the mortality rate.

 

 

 

 

It has to born in mind though that the Mini had the original Minor engine in it turned sideways and with a brand new gearbox and drive system. That engine survived into the Mini Metro.

 

to be pedantic..not quite accurate!

 

The first engines used in the Morris Minor [the MM type...with the headlights either side of the grill]]....were sidevalve engines.

 

BMC [or its predecessor] developed a series of common engines...A-series, B-series, C-series and so on.

 

It was the A-series that was used in the Minor...along side the Austin A30 and elsewhere. This was to be found with a number of different cubic capacities as time went on....and detail design changes.

 

The basic A-series was also [modified..ie cannot be swapped for RWD ]...used in a transverse, FWD mode, as we know.....with a smaller capacity that that of the then-current Minor/A35.

The inline A-series also powered the Austin-Healey Sprite, and later MG Midget...

 

The FWD A-series motor also powered the 1100/1300 ADO16{?}...with it's capacity increased up to 1275CC's in the latter.

 

At this capacity, the A-series also powered the Marina as well as the Austin A40]...

 

But the important point I wanted to make was...the Metro wasn't the last model to use the A-series....the Rover Mini I think having that accolade [as an A-Plus]....with fuel injection as well....right up until the end of [old] mini production.

 

The last Metro models..[under the Rover badge] used a different motor altogether....in fact, the diesel version used a Peugeot gearbox..which opened up interesting possibilities for junking the K-series for a PUG 205GTi engine...

 

So the A-series lasted well up until the end of the 1990's?

 

 

I still have one, sitting forlornly in my garage

[alastairq]

Another point on an entirely different note!

 

Ford...[you know, that motor manufacturer some of us consider to be in the forefront of motoring technology?]...still had the 103E Popular in production in 1959 [when BMC were breaking new ground with the MIni?]

 

This is the old sit-up-and-beg Ford Pop I knew and loved....still sporting the same engine as it's predecessors...[not the one in the 100E Anglia/Prefect, etc] dating from before WW2....without a water pump, only two springs on the chassis, skinny tyres...and in my view, a precursor to the rear-wheel steering technology so prominent today...albeit with more random characteristics.

 

Oh..and the body was, literally, nailed together!

 

At the other end of Ford's spectrum [in the YuK], they made a car with the biggest heater ever seen south of the Arctic circle.....[i'm sure the numbers on the dial were regulo numbers.........]...this, at a time when for some famous makers, a heater was a luxury optional extra!

[stewartingram]

.......sadly, unlike some notable exceptions, although production numbers were high, so was the mortality rate

 

to be pedantic..not quite accurate!

 

The first engines used in the Morris Minor [the MM type...with the headlights either side of the grill]]....were sidevalve engines.

 

BMC [or its predecessor] developed a series of common engines...A-series, B-series, C-series and so on.

 

It was the A-series that was used in the Minor...along side the Austin A30 and elsewhere. This was to be found with a number of different cubic capacities as time went on....and detail design changes.

 

The basic A-series was also [modified..ie cannot be swapped for RWD ]...used in a transverse, FWD mode, as we know.....with a smaller capacity that that of the then-current Minor/A35.

The inline A-series also powered the Austin-Healey Sprite, and later MG Midget...

 

The FWD A-series motor also powered the 1100/1300 ADO16{?}...with it's capacity increased up to 1275CC's in the latter.

 

At this capacity, the A-series also powered the Marina as well as the Austin A40]...

 

But the important point I wanted to make was...the Metro wasn't the last model to use the A-series....the Rover Mini I think having that accolade [as an A-Plus]....with fuel injection as well....right up until the end of [old] mini production.

 

The last Metro models..[under the Rover badge] used a different motor altogether....in fact, the diesel version used a Peugeot gearbox..which opened up interesting possibilities for junking the K-series for a PUG 205GTi engine...

 

So the A-series lasted well up until the end of the 1990's?

 

 

I still have one, sitting forlornly in my garage

 

Ah the good old A-series, my favourite engine! It was developed for the A30 originally, with a non-pressurised cooling system to start off with. After much testing before production started, NO components were found needy of modification -how many times does this happen today I wonder? Though 1 item (I forget which, but have a copy of the reports somewhere in an A30 Club mag in the loft, did have its material changed but only for ease of manufacture.

The Metro era saw a modified version of the A-series, known as the A+. This was also fitted in the Ital (updated Marina) Maestro, Montego etc at the same time. I had a 100cc in mine, and pulled a 4-berth caravan for many miles with it.

I do actually believe it is possible to use the block of the A series in either RWD or transverse modes, though not without heavy rebuilding; I'm sure some of our A30 club members did, but its a long while ago so I may be wrong. I believe however the A+ used a different gearbox so it wasn't possible?

My A30 was originally 803cc, I later fitted a 948cc A35 engine & gearbox to it. The rear differential was changed to one of the variants too (A35 car?) and the engine was set up to run on 80 - yes 80 ! -octane fuel as specified in the very early models. I managed to obtain 48mpg out of it, and was able to keep up with traffic of the period, about 1980. It would start on the starting handle with a gentle 2 finger press, and I was also able to drive off in top (4th) gear. Wonderful days. Did 250k miles in that car, never put it in for repairs as I did everything myself.

 

Stewart

['CHARD]

The Metro era saw a modified version of the A-series, known as the A+. This was also fitted in the Ital (updated Marina) Maestro, Montego etc at the same time. I had a 100cc in mine, and pulled a 4-berth caravan for many miles with it.

 

 

100cc? Whoa - she had power beyond her means!

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

This is the old sit-up-and-beg Ford Pop I knew and loved....still sporting the same engine as it's predecessors...[not the one in the 100E Anglia/Prefect, etc] dating from before WW2....without a water pump, only two springs on the chassis, skinny tyres...and in my view, a precursor to the rear-wheel steering technology so prominent today...albeit with more random characteristics.

 

Unfortunately the Ford Popular was very easily souped up and there were many kit cars available that used the Pop chassis and running gear. Regrettably the handling of these cars was just not good enough and one of my school friends was killed in one.

 

The three box Prefect/Anglia was a tad expensive to buy and it was the slope rear screen Anglia that was the front runner for mass production and affordable prices. I went overland to Rome in one of the three box models. It was a two door so must have been a Prefect (?).

 

Most pre war cars used a thermic syphon effect for cooling. This was readily identified by the large radiator header tank and the large water capacity of these cars. The Lanchester I mentioned was a specific example. Overheating in heavy traffic or on hot days was very common in these types of cars.

[BernardTPM]

The three box Prefect/Anglia was a tad expensive to buy and it was the slope rear screen Anglia that was the front runner for mass production and affordable prices. I went overland to Rome in one of the three box models. It was a two door so must have been a Prefect (?).

Either Anglia or Popular - the four doors were the Prefect. Estates were either Escort or Squire, depending on spec.

[stewartingram]

100cc? Whoa - she had power beyond her means!

Oops! sorry, meant 1300cc there!

[petethemole]

" All the post war all pressed steel cars were rust buckets and few survived very long as a result. Vauxhalls were particularly bad."

 

I was reminiscing with my Dad (now 93) the other day about his old cars and remembered a Vauxhall E series we had on loan in about '65 while his MO Oxford was in the garage. If you banged the door a shower of rust particles fell from under the car. One of his acquaintances was a draughtman at Vauxhall; one of his roles was to work out just how thin they could make the steel on the body.

 

Curiously, when travelling past the Vauxhall works by train in the later 60s and 70s, less than half of the cars in the car park were Vauxhalls!

 

I also heard it alleged that the Ford Consul Classic was built of paint with a layer of metal sprayed on the inside!

 

 

Pete

[Guest jim s-w]

One of his acquaintances was a draughtman at Vauxhall; one of his roles was to work out just how thin they could make the steel on the body.

 

That's entirely normal for any product Pete. Even tanks are made as thin as they can to resist the expected loads put on it. You could make a tank with 3ft thick armour but it wouldn't be a fat lot of use.

 

If you look at dents in very modern cars a lot look very similar to tin foil.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[alastairq]

Regrettably the handling of these cars was just not good enough and one of my school friends was killed in one.

 

 

Sad though the outcome of the accident you mention was....[and indeed, as are all fatalities on the roads...].....it really is unfair to blame the car, or it's apparent handling characteristics.

 

Otherwise every single make and model of vehicle involved in a fatal incident could have that label thrust upon them?

 

The problem with the pop-based specials lay in the lack of understanding about how and what changes or improvements should be made to the chassis before using it under a body for which it was not designed in the first place.

 

The same handling changes affected those specials based upon Austin Seven chassis...or Triumph herald.....or indeed, utilising components today from production vehicles.

 

The Ford Pop chassis was designed to provide reasonable, [ie, safe in the hands of a novice, or careless driver]....secure handling characteristics, with the [weight of] production bodies on top...given parameters of expected usage, performance, etc.

 

Once an owner decided to push the envelope of performance, handling issues had to be addressed.

 

[Lateral location of axles mainly...a simple, easy modification, for which there were proprietary parts available...I've made home-made items for less].....

 

This equally applied to any car of the era.....

 

 

Nowadays, car 'chassis' are designed to be inherently unchallenging [i hesitate to use the word 'safe', as it has dramatic overtones]...for a complete novice, or 'non-driver' driver to handle.....to allow that driver to make all the mistakes yet remain apparently in control.

 

Place one of today's new drivers [ie, from the past 30 years, I suspect?} into a pre-war motorcar, and I guarantee they will struggle with it.

 

The cars weren't 'dangerous'.... drivers of the day learnt how to get the best from them.....

 

Horses-for-courses?

[alastairq]

That's entirely normal for any product Pete. Even tanks are made as thin as they can to resist the expected loads put on it. You could make a tank with 3ft thick armour but it wouldn't be a fat lot of use.

 

If you look at dents in very modern cars a lot look very similar to tin foil.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

 

This was noted by the Motor Sporting press when observing events such as the East African Safari Rally...when Datsun [bluebirds??] started to win the honours, beating the stolid British contenders such as the BMC 1800 series.

 

The Japanese cars were noted as being built 'just strong enough t do the job'....yet the British offerings were 'over-engineered'....as in, they used thicker metal than was necessary?

[James Makin]

 

If you look at dents in very modern cars a lot look very similar to tin foil.

 

It's true, and anyone with a Focus will know just how thin the metal is, the bonnet and roof skin flexes hugely under minmal pressure - gone are the days you could pose a scantily-clad model on the bonnet without denting - I'd be livid!!

[newbryford]

- gone are the days you could pose a scantily-clad model on the bonnet without denting - I'd be livid!!

 

Surely you mean, "you ARE livid" because you can't pose scantily-clad models on the bonnet?

 

Mick

[Black Sheep]

I think the Morris Minor survived until at least 1967 ( I had one as a company car in 1969 ) and they were considered old fashioned by then and were rapidly being phased out due to the runaway success of the Mini. It has to born in mind though that the Mini had the original Minor engine in it turned sideways and with a brand new gearbox and drive system. That engine survived into the Mini Metro.

 

 

1971 saw production of the morris minor end.

 

the mini was a smaller car hence the two being run along side each other. The minor was replaced by the 1100 / Marinia, the Metro was intended to replace the mini.

 

 

Another point on an entirely different note!

 

Ford...[you know, that motor manufacturer some of us consider to be in the forefront of motoring technology?]...still had the 103E Popular in production in 1959 [when BMC were breaking new ground with the MIni?]

 

They did indeed still have the 'pop' in production, however they were also introducing the 105e Anglia (also known as the 'Dan Dare' or 'Harry potter' anglia)

 

it had become common for fords smallest car to continue being produced alongside it's replacement but with a slightly lower price tag under the Popular name.

 

a practice that was continued in part by producing a 'popular' model of the Escort until the mid 90's. By this time however it denoted the base spec instead of being the older model of car.

 

Renault were for some time producing the old Clio as the Clio Campus after introducing the latest Clio.

They did the same with the Renault 5 when the Clio was first introduced.

 

 

The Metro era saw a modified version of the A-series, known as the A+. This was also fitted in the Ital (updated Marina) Maestro, Montego etc at the same time.

 

Not convinced the Montego had an A series, Mum had a few and the engine was certainly bigger - think it would have at least needed a B series.

[PhilJ W]

1971 saw production of the morris minor end.

 

the mini was a smaller car hence the two being run along side each other. The minor was replaced by the 1100 / Marinia, the Metro was intended to replace the mini.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Not convinced the Montego had an A series, Mum had a few and the engine was certainly bigger - think it would have at least needed a B series.

The A and B series engines were very similar, the 'B' series was the larger of the two. They were designed by Austin before they merged with Morris to form BMC. Prior to that Morris used side valve engines of pre war design. The A series was first used in 803cc form in the Austin A30 and the B series in 1200cc form in the Austin A40 Devon. They were developed to 1375cc and 1800cc sizes respectively and a Diesel version of the B series was also developed. The Maestro models for the 'lower end' market had the 1375cc A series as did the commercial van versions but these were replaced by more modern units before production ceased.

[llanben]

I think you're absolutely right about the need to take care with the vehicles that go on to a layout. I have set my layout in the early 1960's and currently use what I suspect to be a very inaccurate mixture of crimson and cream and plain green BR vehicles. I also own some yellow BR goods vehicles as well but don't have them on the layout as I think they belong in the 70's. Can someone set me straight on the 'timeline' for the various colours of BR vehicles?