West Kirby Town: narrow gauge may be coming to town.

[Jon Fitness]

Hi all. I've made progress of sorts, but my garden is being landscaped, so getting to the shed isn't that easy!! Plus things like driving trains on 12" : 1ft and 7mm : 1 ft, going to the last PL game of the season, have meant that not much progress has been made. Some has, however: I've now laid the trailing crossover on the approach to the station. Photos here:

 

 

 

The second one shows where the hole through the wall will be: cutting due in the next few days.

 

I've taken delivery of a new DMU: photo here:

 

 

Built for me by a friend, Dave Hampson (of Oldham King St Parcels fame). Still a few things to do - the most obvious being handrails on the cab fronts and destination blinds. I am well pleased with it.

 

It does raise a question, however, that I wonder if anyone could answer. Would diesels have been allowed to run in the Mersey Tunnels on a regular basis? If not, it'll have to go to Chester (via a cut-off at Birkenhead Central - change for Liverpool!) Maybe even Manchester!

 

More soon. Rod

 

Looks well! Easybuild? I remember seeing 2 car ones in that livery doing the Bolton-Kirkby service. I was a box-lad at Bolton West at the time, 1978-79ish. Turning up for early turn with a hangover, peering blearily out of the window and seeing a white freshly painted unit going past...it hurt my eyes!

 

For a service pattern, you could always do a WK-Birkenhead Nth-Bidston-Wrexham service...

 

JF

[beast66606]

It does raise a question, however, that I wonder if anyone could answer. Would diesels have been allowed to run in the Mersey Tunnels on a regular basis? If not, it'll have to go to Chester (via a cut-off at Birkenhead Central - change for Liverpool!) Maybe even Manchester!

More soon. Rod

 

No diesels in the tunnels on a regular basis, choking passengers would result !

 

For a service pattern, you could always do a WK-Birkenhead Nth-Bidston-Wrexham service...

 

Or a West Kirby - New Brighton - Wrexham via Bidston (twice).

[Dmudriver]

Looks well! Easybuild? I remember seeing 2 car ones in that livery doing the Bolton-Kirkby service. I was a box-lad at Bolton West at the time, 1978-79ish. Turning up for early turn with a hangover, peering blearily out of the window and seeing a white freshly painted unit going past...it hurt my eyes!

 

For a service pattern, you could always do a WK-Birkenhead Nth-Bidston-Wrexham service...

 

JF

 

Yes, Jon, Easybuild. I'm not too sure about the headcode box -it's a bit angular, but an improvement on the previous one, nevertheless.

 

No diesels in the tunnels on a regular basis, choking passengers would result !

 

 

 

Or a West Kirby - New Brighton - Wrexham via Bidston (twice).

 

Fair comment, beast. I thought that might be the answer!! But if I don't ask, I don't know for sure!!

 

Thanks for your comments about the service patterns, gentlemen - I like the sound of those. Would Birkenhead North be suitable for reversing a train without holding up other traffic, though? I can't find a track plan, although photos do seem to show a third platform, but no indication as to whether it's a loop or a bay accessible from the Bidston direction. Birkenhead Park had a central bay platform and I wonder if that would have been easier? Either would offer connections to Liverpool.

 

Where Birkenhead Central came from in my last post, I haven't a clue - I must have been getting tired!!

 

I'm thinking of using my steam push-pull set on a WK - New Brighton service - chartered from the preservation society, even though lettered up as "The Welsh Dragon"!!! As I've said before, it's not meant to be a 100% representation of West Kirby!!

 

Rod

[beast66606]

Would Birkenhead North be suitable for reversing a train without holding up other traffic, though? I can't find a track plan, although photos do seem to show a third platform, but no indication as to whether it's a loop or a bay accessible from the Bidston direction. Birkenhead Park had a central bay platform and I wonder if that would have been easier? Either would offer connections to Liverpool.

 

The real Birkenhead North was used for the Wrexham services for a while, until these were cut back to Bidston.

The main Liverpool bound platform was used, the Mersey services using the loop to go around a unit standing in the platform.

 

Where Birkenhead Central came from in my last post, I haven't a clue - I must have been getting tired!!

 

You were probably thinking of the proposed Wirral loop, using a new link from Woodchurch - Birkenhead Central.

 

I'm thinking of using my steam push-pull set on a WK - New Brighton service - chartered from the preservation society, even though lettered up as "The Welsh Dragon"!!! As I've said before, it's not meant to be a 100% representation of West Kirby!!

 

Each to their own !

 

Looking good so far.

[bigt11]

Hi

 

There use to be four class 73 locos used for maintenance/loco recovery. They were used for mainenance and recover. They were diesels, but could also operate from the third rail which they use to do in the loop. The last two left about ten years ago.

 

it does not help for the period that you are running, but the only occasional diesel on the loop is the Network Rail de icing/leaf cleaning DMU. It does not go right around the loop, but goes as far as the second platform at James St, sits there for a while and then goes back to the Wirral. They do run it during the day when passengers are there - have seen it at James St numerous times!

 

The Wrexham trains only go as far as Bidson and then return.

 

For the period you are modelling, there use to be a triangular junction just past Bidston station at the junction where the West Kirby and New Brighton lines join. Not sure when it was removed. if you look at arial photos, part of it still exists in the form of a small siding that the Wrexham train use to use to get clear from the main line befor returning to Wrexham. When the junction use to exist, it was possible to get a train directly from West Kirby to New Brighton without the train having to go through the loop first. Might give you a destination for your diesels?

 

The third platform at Birkenhead North (the one furthest from the station building) is used occasionally when there are operational issues.

 

If there are technical isses with a train from West Kirby or New Brighton, it is usually take into this platform to detrain the passengers who are then put on the next service to arrive on the second platform. The train can then be reversed down the track running beside the running line and taken into the depot for repair. Occasionally it happens the other way around with the train being taken out of service on the main platform and the other running through the third platform.

 

The other time that its used is when there are issues stopping trains running through the loop. They run a replacement bus services from Birkenhead North. Trains are brought into both the second and third platforms from West Kirby/New Brighton and emptied. They then pull forward towards Liverpool and then reverse back over the crossover into the platform by the station building before returning to West Kirby/New Brighton.

[Dmudriver]

Some more progress but it's all been wiring - in the control panel. Not worth photographing at the moment, but I am learning from mistakes on previous layouts and trying to keep the wiring reasonably tidy. Maybe a photo when it's done. Then it's bus wires and droppers to fit and Tortoise motors to wire up and fit. Sometimes I wish I'd gone for a 6' x 1' plank - but not often as I do like doing all this!

 

Anyway, whilst sitting soldering - which isn't the most mind-bending activity!! - my thoughts have turned to service patterns on the layout following responses above (after wondering whether Everton will be able to buy Steven Pienaar!!) I'm currently thinking on the lines of 2 trains an hour to Birkenhead North (for Liverpool and New Brighton) and 1 train an hour to North, extended to Wrexham. However, I'd also like a service to Chester and, as I've got 4 x Mark 1s, I'd like to run a service to use them on. [i know, not how it's done on the real thing, but it is my model!!] I fancy a Manchester service - a sort of throwback to an old West Kirby - Manchester Club train - or a Crewe via Chester.

 

The problem is: how do I get those there? I've got a book ("Railway Stations of Wirral" by the Merseyside Railway History Group) which shows a line coming off the Hamilton Square line after the Bidston junctions, bypassing Birkenhead North and Park stations, crossing that line between Park and Hamilton Square, crossing the H Sq - Rock Ferry line, bypassing Central and Green Lane and joining back at Rock Ferry.

 

I assume that this was freight-only to/from the docks but could it have been upgraded to take passenger trains, and how long would it add to journey times? The alternative is to assume a chord between Park and Central stations!! The latter may be the more convenient answer. Not forgetting, of course, that I need to get my parcels trains for the depot at Moreton off the BR network somehow assuming they're coming via Chester. Via Wrexham would involve running round at Bidston and possibly getting in the way of the 4/5 passenger services per hour.

 

Food for thought! It's all background stuff, I suppose, but it helps to put the model into a context. Any thoughts/comments will be welcomed.

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Bigt11, thanks for that information, it's very useful. I'm developing a bit of an interest in having a 73, but I think I need a couple more DMUs first!!

 

Rod

[Jack]

Nice layout!

 

Is it worth getting some proper insulation on the inside of the shed before work on the layout progresses too far? Would make it much more habitable in the winter / british summer ...

[beast66606]

Some more progress but it's all been wiring - in the control panel. Not worth photographing at the moment, but I am learning from mistakes on previous layouts and trying to keep the wiring reasonably tidy. Maybe a photo when it's done. Then it's bus wires and droppers to fit and Tortoise motors to wire up and fit. Sometimes I wish I'd gone for a 6' x 1' plank - but not often as I do like doing all this!

 

Make sure the droppers attach to the underside of the rail, they become invisible once the track is ballasted.

 

Anyway, whilst sitting soldering - which isn't the most mind-bending activity!! - my thoughts have turned to service patterns on the layout following responses above (after wondering whether Everton will be able to buy Steven Pienaar!!) I'm currently thinking on the lines of 2 trains an hour to Birkenhead North (for Liverpool and New Brighton) and 1 train an hour to North, extended to Wrexham.

 

The poor signalman at North No.1 box would have fun with that service !

 

However, I'd also like a service to Chester and, as I've got 4 x Mark 1s, I'd like to run a service to use them on. [i know, not how it's done on the real thing, but it is my model!!] I fancy a Manchester service - a sort of throwback to an old West Kirby - Manchester Club train - or a Crewe via Chester.

 

The problem is: how do I get those there?

 

I've got a book ("Railway Stations of Wirral" by the Merseyside Railway History Group) which shows a line coming off the Hamilton Square line after the Bidston junctions, bypassing Birkenhead North and Park stations, crossing that line between Park and Hamilton Square, crossing the H Sq - Rock Ferry line, bypassing Central and Green Lane and joining back at Rock Ferry.

 

I assume that this was freight-only to/from the docks but could it have been upgraded to take passenger trains, and how long would it add to journey times? The alternative is to assume a chord between Park and Central stations!! The latter may be the more convenient answer. Not forgetting, of course, that I need to get my parcels trains for the depot at Moreton off the BR network somehow assuming they're coming via Chester. Via Wrexham would involve running round at Bidston and possibly getting in the way of the 4/5 passenger services per hour.

 

Yes, the line leaves at Bidston Station (Dee Junction) or Bidston East and then runs via the docks to Rock Ferry, I doubt there would be a good reason to make this passenger, adequate trains elsewhere for the people, so no need for passengers over intensely operated goods lines.

 

How about - assume there is a chord from Leasowe - Woodchurch to allow direct running, the "via Birkenhead North" services are the stoppers, the Chester services are semi fasts, limited stop, West Kirby, Shotton, Saughall and Chester Northgate only (for example), alternatively you could also assume the proposed Shotton chord had actually been built and the service would be West Kirby, Shotton and Chester General. The Shotton chord also solves the parcels problem, it runs to West Kirby to reverse because the connection is only available on the Bidston bound line. (This actually happened with Cadburys traffic)

 

hth

[bigt11]

The Merseyside Railway Historic Group produce a number of books. Another one you may find useful is called the last Merseyrail signal boxes and their heritage - Part 1 the Wirral line. It includes track diagrams of all the stations as they use to exist, except for Hamilton Square for some reason.

[beast66606]

The Merseyside Railway Historic Group produce a number of books. Another one you may find useful is called the last Merseyrail signal boxes and their heritage - Part 1 the Wirral line. It includes track diagrams of all the stations as they use to exist, except for Hamilton Square for some reason.

 

And if you look in the acknowledgements you will find a familiar name (but not as beast66606) as one of the co-conspirators !

 

Square isn't in there because it had already been abolished (under the James Street, 1977 scheme) - it only deals with boxes still open at the time of printing, those which were to close under the Merseyrail resignalling scheme when control was transferred to Sandhills IECC

[Dmudriver]

Nice layout!

 

Is it worth getting some proper insulation on the inside of the shed before work on the layout progresses too far? Would make it much more habitable in the winter / british summer ...

 

Hi Jack. It's an interesting question this - I've been asked it before and I've seen it discussed elsewhere on the site. My reply to the previous question was in post #17 and I'm not having second thoughts!! I'll put some floor insulation and carpet tiles down when my garden landscaping is finished - they'd get too dirty otherwise!! My other shed was 10' long as compared to 22'6" with this one: will that make a difference? Ask me next spring!!!

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Make sure the droppers attach to the underside of the rail, they become invisible once the track is ballasted.

 

 

 

The poor signalman at North No.1 box would have fun with that service !

 

 

 

Yes, the line leaves at Bidston Station (Dee Junction) or Bidston East and then runs via the docks to Rock Ferry, I doubt there would be a good reason to make this passenger, adequate trains elsewhere for the people, so no need for passengers over intensely operated goods lines.

 

How about - assume there is a chord from Leasowe - Woodchurch to allow direct running, the "via Birkenhead North" services are the stoppers, the Chester services are semi fasts, limited stop, West Kirby, Shotton, Saughall and Chester Northgate only (for example), alternatively you could also assume the proposed Shotton chord had actually been built and the service would be West Kirby, Shotton and Chester General. The Shotton chord also solves the parcels problem, it runs to West Kirby to reverse because the connection is only available on the Bidston bound line. (This actually happened with Cadburys traffic)

 

hth

 

Hi beast. Too late for the droppers under the rails, I'm afraid - they're glued down!! I always solder the droppers to the sides of the rail, anyway, and, to be honest, I don't think they are intrusive. Maybe the bigger scale helps?

 

Your comment about the bobby at North No 1 box intrigues me: have I overloaded him? Or put him in a higher pay category, perhaps?? I assume you mean it's the reversing that adds to the work load?

 

Thanks for the comment about the goods lines: I think I'll go with the Leasowe - Woodchurch and Shotton chords. I like the sound of that. I'll add an extra stop at Leasowe for the semi-fasts for passengers from stations between WK and Leasowe who will have got the preceding stopper to North: much like the Liverpool Central - Warrington Central stopper which preceded the Liverpool - Manchester fast. I used to use that in my student days going to Manchester.

 

Rod

[beast66606]

Your comment about the bobby at North No 1 box intrigues me: have I overloaded him? Or put him in a higher pay category, perhaps?? I assume you mean it's the reversing that adds to the work load?

 

Make him a Class D - he'll be happy. Yes, reversing the trains adds to the load, but the electric West Kirbys won't be there of course.

 

Bidston East (the next box towards Bidston) was very busy at the time - nicknamed The Beast, it involved a lot of swinging junctions around, and with limited overlap on the West Kirby line, so not always possible to accept trains from Dee Junction, it was a tricky one to keep the job going, added complication for relief (which is what I was unofficially !) was the numbering of the signals, but thats not for here.

[flyingsignalman]

When I first went to Birkenhead North No.1 in late 1980 the service was 10 minute frequency on the New Brighton and West Kirby lines from 6.00am to about 9.30am and from 4.30pm to 7.00pm (24 trains per hour) at other times the frequency was 15 minutes (16 trains per hour).

The box opened at 5.15am each morning monday to saturday and the first hour was occupied running empty stock trains; the first two of which were staff trains from North to West Kirby and New Brighton.

 

The Wrexham DMUs had been cut back to Bidston by this date.

 

The box was a grade C.

Edited May 19, 2012 by flyingsignalman

[pwr]

Any chance of a close up of that dmu? Looks excellent

 

Paul R

[Dmudriver]

Any chance of a close up of that dmu? Looks excellent

 

Paul R

 

How about these, Paul? As I've said, it needs handrails on the cab fronts and destination indicators. It also needs Kadee couplings and a chip and a speaker in both power cars - but these make no difference to the pics!! The latter weren't put on because I didn't know what to put on at the time!

 

 

 

Rod

Edited May 19, 2012 by Dmudriver

[pwr]

Very good quality Rod. Are these Westdale or Easy Build?

 

Did you source the MU cables separately?

 

Paul

[Dmudriver]

Very good quality Rod. Are these Westdale or Easy Build?

 

Did you source the MU cables separately?

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul.

 

It's an Easybuild kit - well, 3 to be precise!!!!

 

A friend built it for me, so I don't know where he got the MU cables from. I'll ask him when I speak to him next. He's not put any between the coaches as I'm going to have to run wires through from the DMBS to the DMCL for the lights and speakers. I aim to put those wires where the MU cables would be.

 

Rod

 

Edit: DMSL changed to DMCL

Edited May 20, 2012 by Dmudriver

[Dmudriver]

Hi all

 

A bit of an update. I've done the wiring inside the control panel and circuit tested it: found one fault only - one of my soldered joints had come undone!!. This is what it looks like inside:

 

 

The black and yellow wires are for the point motors, green for signals and white for the LEDs of the platform indicator. I've used SPDT (no centre off) switches for the signals - I only need SPSTs but they were the same price and are more versatile if I use them again elsewhere. SPDTs for the point motors as they work by reversing the power - again, no centre off. Also 4 x SPDTs for signals 37/38 and 42/43 as they change the aspect and the platform indicator. I've tried to keep the wiring relatively tidy: I've seen better, but I'm happy. All the wires are tagged and they end in chocolate blocks under the baseboard frames. Cue photos:

 

 

 

Next job is to wire up the Tortoise motors prior to fitting. Then, when I can get back in the shed again (I'm having paving laid), I'll fit them, wire them up, then do the DCC bus wires and droppers. THEN, a trial run!!! Watch this space!!

 

Rod

[Jack]

Hi Jack. It's an interesting question this - I've been asked it before and I've seen it discussed elsewhere on the site. My reply to the previous question was in post #17 and I'm not having second thoughts!! I'll put some floor insulation and carpet tiles down when my garden landscaping is finished - they'd get too dirty otherwise!! My other shed was 10' long as compared to 22'6" with this one: will that make a difference? Ask me next spring!!!

 

Rod

 

Sorry, must have missed the reply!

[Dmudriver]

Hi all. Just a brief update. Not much done on the layout this week because of garden work. That's now finished so after a bit of karting today, an Open Day at the club (Preston 0 Gauge Group) tomorrow,12":1 foot driving on Sunday, it'll be layout work on Monday!!

 

I did manage to make a visit (by train!!) to the real West Kirby a couple of days ago, to get some photos. The buildings at the back of the layout are going to take some work!! - for example:

 

 

I do want to create this look, too:

 

 

This buffer stop is just Peco, although does anyone know what the central vertical supports are for? Something to do with the couplings on electric stock?

 

 

I hadn't realised (or had forgotten!) how small the station is: the platforms will take 2 x 3-car 507s, so my model, with platform space for 4 x Mk 1s and a Class 50 won't be that much short.

 

I also managed a walk round the Marine Lake, along the beach, drank plenty of coffee and had a couple of ice creams!! Great day out at the seaside!!!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

 

EDIT: wrong buffer stop pic posted - now changed! 2ND EDIT: pics sorted to match text!!

Edited May 25, 2012 by Dmudriver

[flyingsignalman]

Unlike the Southport line class 502s, the the 503s were fitted with buckeye couplings and no buffers at the outer end of each 3 car set. Couplings within the 3 car set was using screw link couplings (and buffers were also fitted).

[bigt11]

I walk past those buffer stops every day and have not noriced the extra bit in the middle before!

 

It may have something to do with the couplings. There is an electrical box below the coupling to privide comminication between the sets when they couple two together.

 

The underside of the station roof is apauling. They cleaned it up and repainted it a couple of years ago but it did not take long to start peeling again.

 

If you are going to model the houses the other side of the bridge, make sure you do a good job of mine !

[Dmudriver]

I walk past those buffer stops every day and have not noriced the extra bit in the middle before!

 

It may have something to do with the couplings. There is an electrical box below the coupling to privide comminication between the sets when they couple two together.

 

The underside of the station roof is apauling. They cleaned it up and repainted it a couple of years ago but it did not take long to start peeling again.

 

If you are going to model the houses the other side of the bridge, make sure you do a good job of mine !

 

Hi bigt11

 

I'm not sure I'll go as far as the peeling paint under the station roof!! It would mean providing a mirror on the platform surface to see it!! [Maybe disguised as a puddle of water?? ] I did take a photo looking down the road on the other side of the bridge, but I'm not sure how I'll treat that as the track curves round on my model to get out into the garden and the bridge may have to cross the track on the Bidston side of the trailing crossover. I'll concentrate on the station area first. The United Reform Church is a rather imposing building: I'd like to get that in if I can. Aldi I certainly won't as it's too recent!!

 

To be honest, I've got someone lined up to do the buildings for me. Buildings and scenery are not my main interests: trackwork, electrics and operations are. But, who knows??!!

 

Rod

 

 

Rod

Edited May 25, 2012 by Dmudriver