West Kirby Town: narrow gauge may be coming to town.

[Dmudriver]

On 25/02/2021 at 16:51, brossard said:

Peco turnouts look OK to me with the two most obvious issues being the box on the switch and large blade gap.

 

Hi brossard.  I agree with your points (sorry!!  ) there but what really did it for me was the hinged point blades, particularly on some of the videos I've done looking from the headshunt to the stabling point.

 

And as I've said earlier it gives me something positive to do on the layout.  I'm enjoying it!!

 

 

Rod

[brossard]

Hinged point blades?  They must be pretty old then.  I have some from about 4 years ago and these have properly planed blades with rail joiners to connect to the closure rails.  That would make them equivalent to loose heel.  The joiner is not a particularly tight fit and is likely to cause issues with continuity over time I think.  Best to solder a wire from blade to closure rail IMO.

 

John

[Dmudriver]

  "More soon" I said - and here I am 20 or so minutes later!!

 

I said on Wednesday that I fancied laying one of the points, so I gave in last night.  I cut the straight stock rail to length, with a Peco sleeper base and added the common crossing, too (with a cut down insulated fishplate).

 

 

My plan was to build the point in situ but as there are no instructions or drawings with the kits, I thought it will be easier- certainly with the first one - to do it on my work bench in front of me.  There are 4 short chairs in each kit so I need to work out where those go - obviously somewhere where space is tight but whether that's at the frog or by the point blades, I'll find out by trial and error!!  Mike has done a video showing a build of a B7 point  but this is a Peco replacement one, so chair numbers and placings are different.  Here's a pic of the different types of chairs:

 

 

Fortunately, the Peco chairs don't seem to be handed.  I was pretty meticulous when I was making the C&L points but to be honest, I can't tell from normal viewing distance which way the keys are, so it'll save a bit of hassle.

 

 

 

Watch this space.

 

 

Rod

[hayfield]

Rod

 

The 4 short chairs are bridge chairs (L1 chairs)

 

Now I do not quite know how many of these chairs are required for a Peco turnout as the Peco geometry is a generic design rather than a representation of a prototypical turnout, if I was going to chair this turnout it would be a bit of trial and error. Perhaps if you federalise yourself on what chairs go where and just do your best.  Rule of thumb, "if it will not fit then its the wrong chair" . Cutting up a chair or chairs usually is wrong, though if done carefully can make a good representation of a block chair

 

Exactoscale do plans for chair positions

https://exactoscale.com/track-components/chair-positions/

You have both switch and common crossing plans to view, however there are also block chairs to consider which are not available from Peco/Exactoscale/C&L. Off the Rails produce them as 3D prints

 

There are some errors with the Exactoscale plans and there was a bit of a chat in this thread, well worth reading page 6 which is quite informative

 

[Simond]

Lots of good info on the Templot forum too

[GWR57xx]

On 26/02/2021 at 18:12, Dmudriver said:

 

My plan was to build the point in situ but as there are no instructions or drawings with the kits, I thought it will be easier- certainly with the first one - to do it on my work bench in front of me.  There are 4 short chairs in each kit so I need to work out where those go - obviously somewhere where space is tight but whether that's at the frog or by the point blades, I'll find out by trial and error!!  Mike has done a video showing a build of a B7 point  but this is a Peco replacement one, so chair numbers and placings are different. 

 

 

Hi Rod,

I recently built one of Mike's B6 turnout kits. There is a diagram in the downloads section of his website showing the positions of the various chairs (on a B7), but it requires a password - you just need to ask.

From this you should be able to work out the best places to use the chairs you have.

I'll PM you.

[Dmudriver]

On 26/02/2021 at 18:08, brossard said:

Hinged point blades?  They must be pretty old then.  I have some from about 4 years ago and these have properly planed blades with rail joiners to connect to the closure rails.  That would make them equivalent to loose heel.  The joiner is not a particularly tight fit and is likely to cause issues with continuity over time I think.  Best to solder a wire from blade to closure rail IMO.

 

John

 

Hi brossard.  I think I used the wrong expression!!  By "hinged" I meant hingeing on the rail joiner.  As for loose heeled points, I've heard of them but never come across them in "real life".  Hence why I don't like the look of the Peco ones.  

 

I agree that the joiner can lead to continuity problems: we found this at the club so we ended up doing as you've suggested - soldering a wire from the blade to the closure rail.  On my layout, though, I've altered all the Peco points so that the frog is isolated and fed from a microswitch.  I've soldered the closure rails to the stock rails.  There may be continuity problems on the blades but all my powered stock picks up off both bogies so they easily straddle any dead point blade.  The short wheelbase locos have stay-alives in them which also cover that eventuality.

 

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Ever the impatient one, I've got going on the first point!!   I haven't stained the base yet on the basis that 1) I've got no stain and 2) I'm not sure if it would affect the sticking capability.   And 3) (I suppose), I just wanted to get going!!

 

I set up the frog first.

 

 

As you see in this pic, the gauges fit nicely to one track but because of the way they're designed I couldn't get 4 in.  So I adapted 2 by cutting off one of the protrusions (for the want of a better word!!)  They then looked like this:

 

 

and that meant the frog was solid between the 2 stock rails.   I trimmed some of the chairs and others I cut in half as I could not see how to get them in the gap between rail and check rail.  I had to clip some of the trimmed ones under the rail as the wires prevent you sliding more than the end ones on.  I've only managed to lose 1 chair to the carpet monster!!

 

With the frog firmly glued down - I used Butanone, with a fan to blow the fumes away!! - I was going to leave it at that for the night but started to set up the straight stock rail and ended up fixing it down!!  Here's how it looks with the gauges set in place, after I'd slid the chairs onto the rail.  I did that by setting them out alongside the rail to make sure I got the right number and then threading them on after I'd trimmed the ones by the check rail:

 

And finally, I set it up on the layout - as here:

 

 

After pushing one bogie of a 205 trailer car through the frog - no problems with the gauge) I gave up for the night.   I might just do the check rail tomorrow - that's not the order that Mike suggests in his video but I'm slightly apprehensive about wooden track gauges and I just want to be sure the clearances are right.

 

More soon.

 

 

Rod

[brossard]

Wow, you really have got going!  Great progress.  I stained my timbers before assembly (although I didn't have the benefit of the track bed, which is what I meant by "the hard way") and didn't have any bonding issues with ABS chairs and MEK.  Those wooden gauges are interesting.

 

When you lay the curved stock rail don't forget the set.

 

John

[Dmudriver]

A bit more work done today - after my daily exercise!!   I'm really enjoying this - building the point that is, not lockdown!!

 

The first job, as I indicated yesterday, was to do the check rail on the straight stock rail.  As you see from the pic, I could only get one gauge in from the frog so I used 3 others back to front against the stock rail  - as in these 2 pics:

 

 

 

I used 2 trimmed chairs to get it into position.   I'd also taken a bit of time to get a bit of a curve at the entrances to the checkrail.  It looks better than just a sharp bend.  I then added half chairs to both the stock rail and the check rail so the finished result looked like this:

 

 

I ran a bogie of the 205 trailer car through it - perfect!!  As I had time - amd the enthusiasm! - I put the curved stock rail in (with set - thanks for the reminder, brossard).  Same procedure as for the straight one.  Here's how it looked when I decided I'd done enough for today (there's still plenty of lockdown to go!!)

 

 

I've put in the tiebar as I thought that once the gimp pins were in, I wouldn't be able to slide it through the gap.  Just as well I did as you can't get it through.  I did file the tiebar down a little where the ends pass under the rails as otherwise it was very tight and didn't move easily.  I'll take a pic of the pins tomorrow!  I like the idea behind these as, once the blade is soldered to the pin, that is free to rotate slightly and puts no strain on the tiebar/blade joint, which is a problem with the JLTRT ones I've used on the earlier points I made.

 

The near chair at the right hand end of the point is not glued down as I need it loose for now to make up the difference to 32mm gauge.  (It joins onto Peco Streamline track!)  Once the point is in place I'll glue it down then.

 

So that's it for today: check rail and point blades tomorrow - well, that's the plan, anyway!!

 

I've decided to do this one and get it working in the layout just to be sure I've got everything right.  If I have, I'll then do the others.  If I haven't, I'll alter my technique - after a bit of robust industrial language no doubt!!

 

More soon.

 

 

Rod

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Dmudriver

[Dmudriver]

And .... another episode in the saga of the point build!!

 

The first job was the second check rail which I did the same way as the first one.  I then moved onto the straight point blade. I set it up using the wooden gauges - as here:

 

 

and this is the finished job:

 

 

The second check rail is obvious!  I've used 2 of the short chairs close to the end of the slide chairs.  Not sure if it's prototypical, tho' I seem to remember seeing something somewhere that made me think it's acceptable.  The half chair next to the slide chars is all I could fit in.

 

As the afternoon was going quite nicely, I decided to fit the second, curved,  point blade.  Here it is, in place.  I did it in exactly the same way as the straight one.

 

 

The insulated fish plates between the frog and the point blades are shown here (on the straight one only):

 

 

And finally, the gimp pins on the tie bar.  This is the view from underneath: whether I should have bent them over closer to the tie bar only experience will tell (they were longer, but I've cut them so they don't catch the adjacent sleepers):

 

 

And here they are from the top:

 

 

Tomorrow's job is to solder them to the point blades and then test the whole thing.  In the meantime, I've a football match to watch:   Everton v Southampton!!

 

More soon.

 

 

Rod

[Simond]

Rod,

 

you might want your pins head-down through the tiebar to give yourself a decent contact patch for soldering

 

the bent tail of the pin can lie in the angle of the web & foot.

 

atb

Simon

[Dmudriver]

Football last night was OK - nothing out-of-this-world but we won 1-0!   That'll do me, tho' we need to improve our goal difference.

 

Today's job was to solder the blades up.   I did them the way Mike suggests in his video - soldering to the pin head.  Here's the results:

 

 

 

Left the iron on a bit too long with the second one!!  

 

I then set the point up on the layout with the Tortoise motor to operate it.  A couple of items ran through the frog perfectly but were "clunking" on the blade in the curved direction.  I found this was due to the blade lifting as it was pushed over by the Tortoise.  So ... why?   I assumed that the blade was riding up on the foot of the stock rail: it possibly was but what was allowing it to was the fact that the pin that the blade was soldered to was loose in the tiebar and was allowing the blade to move up and down.  So, took the pin out and, in trying to turn it over, lost it - it pinged off into the shed somewhere!!  Fortunately there are spares in the pack so I bent one much closer to the head and then did as Simon suggested and put it in head down.  I left the whole tail on and now it looks like this:

 

 

It now operates properly without lifting at all.  The other blade is OK - doesn't lift at all.   I suspect the pressure is due to the wire on the Tortoise motor:  I remember using thicker gauge wire than that included in the Tortoise box as I'd found those weren't strong enough for the C&L points with 2 rigid JLTRT tiebars.  Moving the "slider" (for want of a better word) didn't really help to ease the pressure.  Tomorrow's (or Thursday's) job will be to change the operating wires on the Tortoise motors:  I've still got some of the original, thinner, wires left, fortunately.

 

Then I need to bond the blades to the stock rail and we're on  for a proper operating trial.  If all goes well, I'll get on with taking out the 2x Y points and then I'll make up the remaining 4.  I'm really enjoying this!!  And enjoying my new work place in the shed!!

 

More soon.

 

 

Rod

 

 

[Barnaby]

Hello Rod, we won too.

I had a telecon with Mike last Wednesday in part to discuss his tie bars as I need some to replace the ones in my multi-used and a bit scarred Peco points.

He said he was in the process of changing their make up and would send me the new style when he returned to his workshop Friday.

I'll check them out when they arrive tomorrow and post a picture on here for you to view.   He's altered the pin make up and fitment after some feed back so may be relevant here. 

 

Regards

 

 

[Simond]

I haven’t used this kind of tie bar, but have used the JLTRT ones which look ok, but are turbo fiddly, I’ve also used thin PCB material with the pins like Rod’s, and these are robust and look ok to my eye.

 

you can probably get PCB material from C&L - 4mm scale point timbers.

 

atb

Simon

[Dmudriver]

Hi all

 

Well, the plan I set out on Tuesday to change the Tortoise operating wire didn't work out as I hoped!!  

 

I set to this afternoon. got under the layout and changed the wire ........ but it didn't work!!!  No matter where I put the "slider" on the Tortoise, the motor wouldn't move the blades completely from side to side.  Cue some robust industrial language - not least because I'm nowhere near as supple as I was 8 years ago when I was first track laying (and I wasn't that supple then!!) and added to which my hands shake a bit more!!  (Oh, the joys of getting old!!)  

 

I think the reason is that I opened out the holes on the Tortoise and the tiebar to accommodate the thicker wire so the thinner one is much too sloppy to do anything.  Got the thicker wire back in and everything works fine again:  I'll just put some nails in to stop the motor moving the point base around.

 

The middle point has a shorter operating wire which, because I cut it very short in the Peco point, does not reach the tiebar in the Greenwood point.  I think - subject to any suggestions anyone else might have - I'll get over that by adding a thickening piece under the Greenwood tiebar.

 

The third point does not seem to be a problem** as the wire is set off to the side of the point - I couldn't get the Tortoise under the point as there's a baseboard support under it.   The 2 Y points are hand operated: OK for Peco with the springs left in so I'll dig out (or buy!) a couple of hand operated point levers for those.

 

More soon.

 

 

Rod

 

 

**   Famous last words???????  

[brossard]

The 0.020" operating wire that comes with Tortoise is completely useless, even for 00.  0.032" wire is much better.  Cobalts come with 0.032" wire as standard.

 

John

[woodyfox]

On 02/03/2021 at 22:41, Simond said:

I haven’t used this kind of tie bar, but have used the JLTRT ones which look ok, but are turbo fiddly, I’ve also used thin PCB material with the pins like Rod’s, and these are robust and look ok to my eye.

 

you can probably get PCB material from C&L - 4mm scale point timbers.

 

atb

Simon

I used pcb strip designed for 2mm pointwork on mine. Marcway supplied it. 

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

I had a horrible thought yesterday!!  In the early days of the layout I had a Heljan class 37 that would not run through 31.5mm gauge points.   (I had to get the wheels machined to the proper standards!)

 

I've now got another one!!   Although it's one of the new run I hadn't remembered seeing anything about the wheel standards:  I assumed they would have been altered but I ran my 37 through the new point just to be sure.  Here it is:

 

 

 

Smooth as anything, even though there's a swift change of gauge between 32 and 31.5mm at each end of the point!!  I tried it on the curved section too and that's also perfect.   Cue big sigh of relief!!

 

I've taken up the 2x Y points today but not got a photo yet - will do so when everything's dried out.

 

More soon.

 

 

Rod

[Simond]

32 to 31.5 and back again - I’ve never found the 10 thou transition either side to be an issue, and happily I’ve not had any issues with any of the stock I’ve built or bought through my 0MF pointwork, but my mate Tony just bought a really nice brass 48xx second hand.  
 

What it didn’t say is that the BTB is less than 28mm, it don’t half clunk over my crossings!!

 

Shame as it’s really nicely built.  
 

keep up the good work!

Simon

[Barnaby]

I've got the tie bars [Greenwood Models] and I will add a photo here as promised above.

I want to replace my peco point tie bars as they have got a bit too nibbled in multi use. They're not quite what I expected but they will work and look better..

Basically what Mike has done is to supply a thin wood strip shaped and drilled appropriately with some small pins to solder to the blades.

The pins are headed so that when fitted from under the bar they will not pull out.

They are then bent over and soldered into the web of the blade being sure to leave no float "up" gap on the blade.

If I'm not successful I will try a thin strip of copper clad with an insulation gap in the middle, but of course they will not have any free twist between the bar and blades unlike the pins will.

 

Keep up the point track laying Rod it's looking very good.

 

Photo to follow see below.  EDIT   Looking at these they appear to be the same as Rod has with the full kits and I note that he has reversed the procedure for soldering the blades to the pins.  That actually seems a easier and better way to install and ensure that there isn't any blade float up, I could also add some split washers to take up any float on the underside of the tie bar if there is any.

ll

Edited March 10, 2021 by Barnaby

[hayfield]

22 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

I've got the tie bars [Greenwood Models] and I will add a photo here as promised above.

I want to replace my peco point tie bars as they have got a bit too nibbled in multi use. They're not quite what I expected but they will work and look better..

Basically what Mike has done is to supply a thin wood strip shaped and drilled appropriately with some small pins to solder to the blades.

The pins are headed so that when fitted from under the bar they will not pull out.

They are then bent over and soldered into the web of the blade being sure to leave no float "up" gap on the blade.

If I'm not successful I will try a thin strip of copper clad with an insulation gap in the middle, but of course they will not have any free twist between the bar and blades unlike the pins will.

 

Keep up the track laying Rod it's looking very good.

 

Photo to follow.

 

You could copy the method of drilling holes in the copperclad strips, then use Peco track pins pushed through and soldered to the switch blades.

[Dmudriver]

6 hours ago, Barnaby said:

I've got the tie bars [Greenwood Models] and I will add a photo here as promised above.

I want to replace my peco point tie bars as they have got a bit too nibbled in multi use. They're not quite what I expected but they will work and look better..

Basically what Mike has done is to supply a thin wood strip shaped and drilled appropriately with some small pins to solder to the blades.

The pins are headed so that when fitted from under the bar they will not pull out.

They are then bent over and soldered into the web of the blade being sure to leave no float "up" gap on the blade.

If I'm not successful I will try a thin strip of copper clad with an insulation gap in the middle, but of course they will not have any free twist between the bar and blades unlike the pins will.

 

Keep up the point track laying Rod it's looking very good.

 

Photo to follow see below.  EDIT   Looking at these they appear to be the same as Rod has with the full kits and I note that he has reversed the procedure for soldering the blades to the pins.  That actually seems a easier and better way to install and ensure that there isn't any blade float up, I could also add some split washers to take up any float on the underside of the tie bar if there is any.

ll

 

Yes, those are the ones I've got, Barnaby.    I've ended up with the pins different ways up on the first point!!  I did them Mike's way first (head up) but one blade lifted so I reversed that pin: the other I left as it is.  However, for the future ones I'll reverse the pins, ie head down.

 

One thing I would recommend is to bend the pin before you put it through the hole.  I found that the wood is a bit soft and trying to use it as a bending point only resulted in a gouge in the wood!!   The bend might enlarge the hole slightly as you feed the pin through, but I don't think significantly.  I'll feed it through in the direction of travel so if there is any enlargement it won't (shouldn't!!) affect the gauge.

 

HTH.

 

 

Rod

 

 

[Dmudriver]

I said a day or two ago that I'd taken out the 2x Y points.  Here's how things look now:

 

 

And with the point bases laid out:

 

 

I've now got the straight track bases from Mike so I can replace the short bits of Peco that you can see and also fill in the other gaps.

 

I went to B&Q too - as it's only a couple of miles away - and got some wood stain.  Here's how it will look:

 

 

I've not been too careful with it as, once the ballast is laid, I'll be spraying the rail sides rusty and then everything with track dirt so it should then look OK.  Not as dark as the Peco sleepers but it is new trackwork, after all!!

 

More soon.

 

 

Rod

[jcarta]

Major track replacement then.... Looks very good Rod 

 

Jim