Modelling Spam Cans (Bulleid Pacifics)

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, AdeMoore said:

1958 to 1964 would cover it.

Indeed you are correct PACE Portrait of the Atlantic Coast Express - Stephen Austin 
34072 at Wadebridge. 1 Jul 1961 PACE p8

as per Linky shame there’s not a name column there to aid folk like me, I have to cross reference it.

But given what Chris says about the age of the things design I’ll stick with gambling on the auction site!

Cheers for the info.

But the Malachite green livery was ancient history by then!

[autocoach]

No luck with original cab version this year from Hornby....at least from Hornby. After the Titfield tiff anything air-smoothed should be fair game for anyone.

[Combe Martin]

When I first saw that Braunton was being produced I thought Yesssss.... just what the doctor ordered, a rebuilt Braunton with the re-bodied tender, then the realisation hit me ... its in its earlier original guise. 

 

So I wonder, having produced the early version, are they ever likely to do the rebuild ? 

 

 

[Robin Brasher]

I am modelling the Swanage Railway.  257 Squadron has not appeared on the preserved line in malachite green and is unlikely to have visited the branch in that livery in British Railways days. If Hornby had made 257 Squadron in British Railways green the company could have been on to a winner with me and probably many others.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Robin Brasher said:

I am modelling the Swanage Railway.  257 Squadron has not appeared on the preserved line in malachite green and is unlikely to have visited the branch in that livery in British Railways days. If Hornby had made 257 Squadron in British Railways green the company could have been on to a winner with me and probably many others.

Hi Robin,

 

Agreed. 34072 worked out of Dover for the entire time it carried Malachite green so an appearance at Swanage in that livery can almost certainly be ruled out.

 

By the time it was transferred from Exmouth Junction to Eastleigh in 1964, 257 Squadron had lost its original 5500 gallon tender (swapped with a 4500 gallon example from 34021 Dartmoor, when the latter was rebuilt in 1957).

 

34072 was, however one of very few Light Pacifics to retain a tender with high sides right through to withdrawal. That came only three months after its move to Eastleigh, so the odds of a visit to Swanage even then aren't high. 

 

That's been more than made up for since preservation, though!

 

As an aside, the only wide-cab air-smoothed Light Pacific Hornby has so far produced with the smaller tender was 34092 City of Wells but there is scope to do many more, albeit mostly with cut-down tenders (a combination they haven't yet covered at all).  

 

John 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Cofga]

No matter the cost and other considerations I pre-ordered 257 Squadron. I like the malachite green livery and this gives me the BR incarnation to accompany my original green Channel Packet and blue East Asiatic. Next come examples of the BR green liveries with early and late emblems. The price may be high but my total with shipping was considerably less than what the eBay sellers want for used versions of older models. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Cofga

[Staffordshire]

   For something a little different from Bulleid .....   

 

     Comments welcome 

[Graham_Muz]

5 hours ago, Staffordshire said:

   For something a little different from Bulleid .....   

 

     Comments welcome 

 

Very nice, I must get round to building mine.

[Tony Teague]

18 hours ago, Staffordshire said:

   For something a little different from Bulleid .....   

 

     Comments welcome 

 

Unfortunately a little late for my era but a great looking model.

[John Tomlinson]

23 hours ago, Staffordshire said:

   For something a little different from Bulleid .....   

 

     Comments welcome 

 

Is this the Judith Edge kit, or have you scratchbuilt?

 

Lovely whatever.

 

John.

[Cofga]

On 30/11/2019 at 14:03, Graham_Muz said:

#OnThisDay 1874: Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill was born at Blenheim Palace. The Southern Railway named 21C151 after him.

Beautiful job, as usual. I have been trying to get an understanding of Hornby history. So it sounds as though all their Bulleid light pacific models have had the wide cab and modeling the original cab requires using one of the RT Models kits? Your photos on your website make that conversion look easy but since 21C151 existed  in this configuration shown here for about 11 months I may just follow your guide and do a rename and renumber job on 257 squadron when it arrives—Larry

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Cofga said:

Beautiful job, as usual. I have been trying to get an understanding of Hornby history. So it sounds as though all their Bulleid light pacific models have had the wide cab and modeling the original cab requires using one of the RT Models kits? Your photos on your website make that conversion look easy but since 21C151 existed  in this configuration shown here for about 11 months I may just follow your guide and do a rename and renumber job on 257 squadron when it arrives—Larry

Hornby have covered both of the later style cabs, 8'6" and 9'0" wide, as appropriate to the individual model. What they haven't done is the original flat fronted style.

 

However, many people think the modification was a BR development; it wasn't. 21C151 received the modified 8'6"cab before nationalisation (summer 1947). It only had the flat fronted one for its first 7 or 8 months in traffic. Renumbering another Hornby model might therefore be in order.

 

However, 34072 "257 Squadron" won't be one of them. The locos numbered from 34071 upwards were built by BR with 9'0"-wide cabs (all in the modified style from new) and larger capacity tenders than that paired with 34051 "Winston Churchill".

 

When built the locomotives had tenders that matched their cab width. Most of the wide-cab locomotives later received narrow tenders with the wide ones being transferred to rebuilt classmates, all of which received 9'0" cabs as part of the process.

 

John

Edited January 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Graham_Muz]

John is correct in his post regarding the the fact that Hornby had produced both cab widths, their tooling also used to allow for different safety valve positions and deflector lengths (but they couldn't mix and match different deflector lengths  with different cab widths),  but it should also be noted, and not picked up by many, that the narrow cab locos also have flatter vertical profile smoke deflectors whereas the wide cab versions had more curved profile that were splayed out wider too.

Edited January 13, 2022 by Graham_Muz

[Cofga]

13 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Hornby have covered both of the later style cabs, 8'6" and 9'0" wide, as appropriate to the individual model. What they haven't done is the original flat fronted style.

 

However, many people think the modification was a BR development; it wasn't. 21C151 received the modified 8'6"cab before nationalisation (summer 1947). It only had the flat fronted one for its first 7 or 8 months in traffic. Renumbering another Hornby model might therefore be in order.

 

However, 34072 "257 Squadron" won't be one of them. The locos numbered from 34071 upwards were built by BR with 9'0"-wide cabs (all in the modified style from new) and larger capacity tenders than that paired with 34051 "Winston Churchill".

 

When built the locomotives had tenders that matched their cab width. Most of the wide-cab locomotives later received narrow tenders with the wide ones being transferred to rebuilt classmates, all of which received 9'0" cabs as part of the process.

 

John

OK, the fact that the modified cab is not the same as the 9’ wide cab fills in some much needed info. I was wondering just exactly what “modified” in the spreadsheet I have meant. Thanks

Edited January 13, 2022 by Cofga

[roundhouse]

5 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

John is correct in his post regarding the the fact that Hornby had produced both cab widths, their tooling also used to allow for different safety valve positions and deflector lengths (but they couldn't mix and match different deflector lengths  with different cab widths),  but it should also be noted, and not picked up by many, that the narrow cab locos also have flatter vertical profile smoke deflectors whereas the wide cab versions had more curved profile that were splayed out wider too.

Ah.

I had noticed in photos that some had flatter smoke deflectors but just put that down to each build being slightly different / replaced during their lifespan. So another new bit of info for me.

[bécasse]

The contemporary reasoning behind the original provision of narrow cabs and tenders was that the locos could be used on the Hastings line with its restricted loading gauge, and that required everything else on the locos to be within that loading gauge too - including the smoke deflectors.

 

In practice it was quickly realised that Schools, together with other suitable classes released from duties elsewhere by the advent of Light Pacifics, would provide adequate traction on the Hastings line for the foreseeable future - and there were still plans to electrify it when the post-war situation allowed. If it hadn't been necessary to alter the cabs on Light Pacifics to remedy inadequate forward vision then one might have seen some Hastings trains worked by them, however the alterations were necessary (and implemented remarkably quickly) with the result that the locos exceeded the Hastings line loading gauge and couldn't be used there.

Edited January 13, 2022 by bécasse

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, Cofga said:

OK, the fact that the modified cab is not the same as the 9’ wide cab fills in some much needed info. I was wondering just exactly what “modified” in the spreadsheet I have meant. Thanks

Modified means the wedge-fronted cab with the swept-back windscreens, as opposed to the original flat-fronted sort.

 

Although they look almost the same as the 8' 6" modified cabs, the 9' ones on the BR-built locos (34071-34110) weren't strictly "modified"; they were built that way. So were the 8' 6" ones fitted to the last few SR-built locos (21c164-21c170, later 34064-34070). The first of those was actually built with the original style but was altered prior to entering service.   

 

All the earlier engines received the cab modification, some very quickly, but 34015 Exmouth wasn't "done" until 1957, long after the rest had been dealt with. However, unless the locomotive was rebuilt, the cabs remained 8' 6 " wide.

 

An exception arose only in preservation, as 34067 Tangmere got a 9' cab to match its much-altered third-series Merchant Navy tender. Route availability is based on the dimensions of the engine so being narrower than its tender would have prevented its return to the main-line network.

 

John

Edited January 13, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Graham_Muz]

24 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Modified means the wedge-fronted cab with the swept-back windscreens, as opposed to the original flat-fronted sort.

 

Although they look almost the same as the 8' 6" modified cabs, the 9' ones on the BR-built locos (34071-34110) weren't strictly "modified"; they were built that way. So were the 8' 6" ones fitted to the last few SR-built locos (21c164-21c170, later 34064-34070). The first of those was actually built with the original style but was altered prior to entering service.   

 

All the earlier engines received the cab modification, some very quickly, but 34015 Exmouth wasn't "done" until 1957, long after the rest had been dealt with. However, unless the locomotive was rebuilt, the cabs remained 8' 6 " wide.

 

An exception arose only in preservation, as 34067 Tangmere got a 9' cab to match its much-altered third-series Merchant Navy tender. Route availability is based on the dimensions of the engine so being narrower than its tender would have prevented its return to the main-line network.

 

John

Indeed John, just for clarity an original narrow  8'6" wide cab was still the same overall width after receiving the modified wedge shape and only the narrow cab versions (except Tangmere in preservation) that were rebuilt later gained wider cabs when rebuilt the original air smoothed narrow cab versions not rebuilt remained narrow until withdrawal. 
Those from 34071 onwards had modified 9' cabs in both forms. 

[Wickham Green too]

11 hours ago, bécasse said:

The contemporary reasoning behind the original provision of narrow cabs and tenders was that the locos could be used on the Hastings line with its restricted loading gauge, ....

Slightly off topic - there's a photo in 'The power of the Bulleid Pacifics' showing 'Holsworthy' at the head of a Wembley to Hastings returning hockey excursion and - after a somewhat convoluted route there* - it states that 'A locomotive change must almost certainly have been made at Tonbridge, as the Pacifics were virtually banned from the direct Hastings route." ............. well, 34097 was a  wide cab loco so it was most definitely banned ...... but so was the Restriction 4 coaching stock it was hauling ! - so what route was actually taken ??!? ( * Stan Creer photo at Balham then route stated to have been Crystal Palace, Beckenham Jn. and Petts Wood )

[Oldddudders]

23 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

 so what route was actually taken ??!? ( * Stan Creer photo at Balham then route stated to have been Crystal Palace, Beckenham Jn. and Petts Wood )

Hmmm. If it went via Petts Wood then BTR1 to Ashford and across the Ponderosa to Hastings. But why had it come via Balham, instead of the Ludgate Lines and Factory Junction? Perhaps it was a Central crew from Wembley. Once on the Central, though, it might have been expected to run via Plumpton and across the top at Stonecross Junction.  

[Wickham Green too]

The photo is not dated but shows the loco with large 'cycling  lion' which it carried from 1949 'til rebuilding in 1961 - so that gives no clues !  '97 was a Ramsgate loco for most of that time ( with brief spells at Bournemouth, Brighton and Exmouth Jn. towards the end ) .................. so I'm wondering if its coastal destination  was actually somewhere further east than Hastings !!?!

[Cofga]

On 13/01/2022 at 17:14, Dunsignalling said:

Modified means the wedge-fronted cab with the swept-back windscreens, as opposed to the original flat-fronted sort.

 

Although they look almost the same as the 8' 6" modified cabs, the 9' ones on the BR-built locos (34071-34110) weren't strictly "modified"; they were built that way. So were the 8' 6" ones fitted to the last few SR-built locos (21c164-21c170, later 34064-34070). The first of those was actually built with the original style but was altered prior to entering service.   

 

All the earlier engines received the cab modification, some very quickly, but 34015 Exmouth wasn't "done" until 1957, long after the rest had been dealt with. However, unless the locomotive was rebuilt, the cabs remained 8' 6 " wide.

 

An exception arose only in preservation, as 34067 Tangmere got a 9' cab to match its much-altered third-series Merchant Navy tender. Route availability is based on the dimensions of the engine so being narrower than its tender would have prevented its return to the main-line network.

 

John

Given the changes that took place over just a span of a few years in the late 1940s just how closely has Hornby been at pairing the correct livery with the correct cab configuration and the correct tender? Are there any spreadsheets that present all this information in a concise manner, particularly the tender information? 

[Dunsignalling]

7 hours ago, Cofga said:

Given the changes that took place over just a span of a few years in the late 1940s just how closely has Hornby been at pairing the correct livery with the correct cab configuration and the correct tender? Are there any spreadsheets that present all this information in a concise manner, particularly the tender information? 

All the BR Brunswick green ones are OK so far as I know apart from the NRM-edition rebuilt MN Ellerman Lines which (understandably) has the type of tender it now resides with in the NRM, not the sort it ran with in service.

 

I don't really appreciate the malachite livery (!) so I couldn't tell you about anything pre-1952, but given that I've never noticed any howls of protest on here, I'd think Hornby has been equally fastidious with that period. In other words, they haven't done any that retained the original cab throughout the time they carried malachite livery. The one exception to that is Blackmoor/Blackmore Vale, because that was also done "as preserved" and the livery/cab combination does not correspond to its "in service" condition at any time. 

 

I doubt that any description of Bulleid tender allocations could ever qualify as "concise", however it might be presented! It's a complete minefield and you really need Mr Derry's "Book of the" volumes on the two sizes of Pacific (and a fair helping of patience) to track the various exchanges, and it got a lot worse after the rebuilding process began! 

 

In your case, it will enable you to match/pick particular Hornby models to exactly when they received the cab modification and/or BR numbers/markings/lost malachite livery, in whatever order or permutation might apply! 

 

Good Luck

 

John

Edited January 16, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Guest]

On 16/01/2022 at 08:07, Dunsignalling said:

All the BR Brunswick green ones are OK so far as I know apart from the NRM-edition rebuilt MN Ellerman Lines ..

Well as pics below.  On the left is 'Tangmere' in late crest arrived 2nd hand yesterday unboxed from Ebay, but "new" and unused, with unfitted detail pack and lift off tender, guessing split from R2308M train pack, on the right is 'Winston Churchill',  from Locomotion Models, bought last month brand new with horrid fixed tender. 

 

To me 'Tangmere' looks best, slightly darker green and same colour as my 2006 Rebuilt WC 'Plymouth'.  But heh ho I am no expert, but what a variation from Hornby over I'm guessing a 20 yr period.

[Dunsignalling]

12 minutes ago, confused said:

Well as pics below.  On the left is 'Tangmere' in late crest arrived 2nd hand yesterday unboxed from Ebay, but "new" and unused, with unfitted detail pack and lift off tender, guessing split from R2308M train pack, on the right is 'Winston Churchill',  from Locomotion Models, bought last month brand new with horrid fixed tender. 

 

To me 'Tangmere' looks best, slightly darker green and same colour as my 2006 Rebuilt WC 'Plymouth'.  But heh ho I am no expert, but what a variation from Hornby over I'm guessing a 20 yr period.

Hornby has done two versions of "Tangmere", the train pack one has a cut-down tender and late crest, so that is what you have acquired. I wasn't aware it existed until I bought one at a show.

 

The other one, R.2221, was a member of the first group of releases when the new Light Pacifics were launched. High-sided tender and early emblem. Mine became 34069 "Hawkinge", altered to late crest, (a personal favourite) very soon after purchase.

 

John

Edited January 19, 2022 by Dunsignalling