Sutton Dock

[t-b-g]

Well it is about time that something was said about my effort in the challenge! I had been planning Sutton Dock before I had even seen what the challenge was all about but as the size seems to fit the rules, I am going to put it forward.

 

Work has now started and the main baseboard and some of the points have been built. The layout is due to be shown at EXPO EM at Bracknell in May 2010 so I have a little tighter deadline than most entries!

 

Inspired by various dock/quay layouts I have seen recently, including that of our glorious leader, my thoughts turned to a "quicky" project to keep me (and my partner in crime Ken) busy between more significant layouts. I had been wanting a J63 (GCR Dock Tank)for some time and having just built one for a friend a Great Central fish dock layout seemed to fit the bill. I have mentioned to one or two people and please don't send for the men in the white coats but I actually had a dream that I had the layout, which set me off down this path. When I woke up I could remember the dream clearly and what is being put together now has no carefully drawn plan. It is all in my head in the minutest detail!

 

The LD&ECR intended building a dock at Sutton on Sea to compete with the GCR one at Immingham. In the event it never happened (usual cause - no money!!!) and the LD&ECR was taken over by the GCR. So the model is a "might have been" corner of a larger dock complex, portraying a typical fish handling facility as well as a more general quayside siding. Although only about 6'3" by 1'3" in total, through running is possible to the "rest" of the docks, allowing traffic which cannot be handled on the modelled section.

 

The period will by around 1912 so when I have built appropriate stock, the main traffic will be worked by a J63 plus a J60 (ex LD&ECR 0-6-0T) in GCR livery. As there is nothing to give the layout away as being GCR and we have some suitable LNWR rolling stock, we may play fast and loose with history and decide that Sutton is really in the North West (the LD&ECR tanks did end up at Wrexham!) so we can have LNWR and GCR locos alongside each other. Sutton is a vague enough name to get away with such things!

 

I will post some pictures of progress so far as soon as I have taken some and possibly a plan too.

[Forward!]

Brilliant- build it! I love the concept, but then I am a died in the wool Lincolnshire GCR fan! I always thought a LDECR port 'might have been' would have been cool. I somehow imagine the company attempting something more on a scale with the older MSLR port at New Holland than say super-modern Immingham though!

 

I can help with scale drawings of the J60 if you need them (and LDECR wagons too), pm me. (I could also send you copies of the slightly more 'odd' GCR fish vans- like the 6-wheelers and open fish trucks from the GCR diagram book too if you want)

 

The LDECR did have running powers to Grimsby in the years before its take over, although I think I've only seen one photo of a LDECR liveried wagon at that port!

 

Will

 

p.s- if you went O gauge there are actually a number of LDECR wagon kits available- not to mention Garth Patrick's super little J63 loco.

[Beardybloke]

Oddly enough, I was just thinking about the potential of an LD&ECR layout this morning (despite my normal objection to all things east of the Pennines)... So I'll be watching with interest to see where you go with this!

[t-b-g]

The "fill in" project was neded in the first place because I am gradually sorting out the garage for a layout based on Chesterfield market Place. A big chunk of my family was from Warsop and my Dad was a big railway enthusiast. I remember him taking me round the remains of Langwith Junction way back when. There were still tracks and a footbridge at the time so it was probably early 1970s. I have had an interest in the line ever since and my first exhibition layout was based on a "might have been" LD&ECR branch to Mansfield. I currently have "Church Warsop" which is another LD&ECR based layout.

 

It is an interesting line but the passenger service was quite limited. Chesterfield will use the modeling licence I carry at all times to show the station in GCR days, with the sort of passenger service that was hoped for when the line was marketed as the "Dukeries" line to promote tourist traffic!

 

I have 3 of the loco classes already. These are a very old (and basic!!) plasticard M1 and more recent scratchbuilt metal (much better!!) N6 and J60.

 

I have seen the O gauge J63 and it is ever so tempting but I am too committed to 4mm scale and if I want to do a serious operational layout it will have to be in 4mm scale (EM Gauge).

[t-b-g]

First pictures of Sutton Dock have been put in a gallery. With and without track! Both taken on Wednesday, one at about 10.30am the next at 4.30pm. All that remains to be completed is the check rail on some of the inset track, to allow an infill without blocking the flangeway. When I work out how to put a photo up on this bit, I will have a go!

[Forward!]

looks great, nice and compact. Is this going to be asection of fish dock, or a coal dock or transit shed?

 

I remember a chap asking on another forum for info on Chesterfield Market place for a potential model, you may be interested in looking at the thread. http://www.lner.info/forums/chesterfield-market-place-station-t2910.html

[t-b-g]

looks great, nice and compact. Is this going to be asection of fish dock, or a coal dock or transit shed?

 

I remember a chap asking on another forum for info on Chesterfield Market place for a potential model, you may be interested in looking at the thread. http://www.lner.info/forums/chesterfield-market-place-station-t2910.html

 

Many thanks for the information. It seems that I am not alone in liking the terminus at Chesterfield. I have those photos and a few more. I am not on the other forum but if the chap building the layout would like to contact me I might be able to help him out. My Dad was at the exhibition mentioned and took a couple of photos, which I now have!

 

The track along the back edge (the longest track) is the "running line" and will be hidden behind a backscene and low relief buildings. Between this track and the siding nearest to it will be a platform and a timber fish handling shed. The idea is that the trawlers will be off scene behind the shed, with perhaps masts etc on the backscene. The front siding is for general merchandise and if I get all I want done then there may be a small hand crane and boat on the front. A loco and 5 wagons will fit in the cassettes and the headshunt and very little handling will be needed in the fiddle yard. Complete trains will reverse off scene and then appear via the L H point between buildings. They can then either work straight through or stop to shunt. Trains going the other way will be going to imaginary timber and coal facilities so do not need to stop at my little quayside.

[MartinWales]

So I'll be watching with interest to see where you go with this!

 

Same here Steve....this sounds very interesting!!

I've always liked the anachronism of the GCR/LNER/ER in North Wales too.......

[t-b-g]

Time for a progress report, as some work has been done for the first time since I posted the pictures. Nothing went quite as easily as it might! I even spent ages typing this once, to be told "there is an error connecting to the server" and my carefully crafted report vanished, maybe for ever!

 

The check rails caused several problems. The copperclad sleepering sold as "matches SMP track" clearly does not! So each sleeper had two little pads of scrap brass etch soldered on to make the height correct, so that the running rail and check rail are both on a solid base height now. Then all the plastic moulded bolt heads had to be removed because they were in the way of the check rail. Then I soldered it at both ends and the rail buckled horribly when I put the iron near the middle, so it had to come off again. These are all excuses for taking all day to put one check rail down one siding! Then my camera screen broke over the hols so I took some snaps on my brand new all singing mobole phone, only to get home and find out that the blue tooth thingy is away at my daughter's university and we don't have a cable, so no pics yet!

 

Meanwhile Ken was working away on the platform for the fish dock (balsa and Wills stone sheet) and the harbour wall (Wills sheet again). His bit seemed to go OK and he made some good progress. We don't have any prototype info on what the platform and shed should look like but then again, as I said before, it was all in the dream. I am faced with the choice of building what I dreamed about, or doing research and finding out that the dream was wrong. What a choice! Up to press, I prefer the idea of building the dream.

[t-b-g]

Even with my camera problems I have had a go at pointing and shooting on fully auto mode, with no screen to help me and some of the shots actually came out. So I have added some more to the gallery. Apologies for the duplicate one! If I can see an easy way to remove it I will but up to press I haven't seen a "delete" button!

 

One pic shows the pointwork laid with the continuous checkrail, there is one of Ken working on the fish shed and an overall view. These were taken on Monday and we had another good day of progress on Wednesday. The timbering on the shed is now completed and there is an office started at the end of the fish shed, plus some work done on the surface around the track. I may have some more pics of that to put in the gallery soon. What we have so far is probably about 10 "man days" worth of work, basically two of us working on 5 days.

[t-b-g]

Another update, showing progress up to Wednesday. Ken has got on well with the main shed complete with the office at the end. I have done some more infill around the tracks and built the small timber shed (pic in gallery), this is based on a photograph found on the internet of Grimsby dock. On the model it hides the exit of the running line into the fiddle yard.

[Worsdell forever]

Progress seems to be up to your usual speed! Looking good.

[chesterfield]

Progress seems to be up to your usual speed! Looking good.

speaking of Chesterfield ( which we are not) see OO Gauge Society for an article about operating a timetable for what amounts to Chesterfield Town

[t-b-g]

Update time! Ken has been working away at the main shed, as well as the dock wall. I have been plodding along working on the stone sets for the quay surface. Wills stone sets look good but once you have laid track in a curve, matching a curve cut in the plastic to the track aint easy! There was an article in a magazine about laying inset track, which had a diagram showing "kerb" stones along the rails, so I have been carefully using the edges of the Wills sheets to create this appearance. However, I have since found a photo which shows that the stone sets do not always have edging stones. It would have saved hours of work had I found it earlier but I am too far advanced to change now. One more session should see the bulk of it finished. I have chickened out on doing it all with the stone and decided that the siding immediately in front of the platform will be cement/concrete (as was the surface in parts of Grimsby in the period). The rest will be built up earth/ash/crud. We have some black tile grout (really a mid grey) left over from Ken's new bathroom, which should come in handy! The cranes are also Wills. Cheap and cheerful. Easy to build and they look the part.

[Worsdell forever]

I see the ploughing engines have made an early appearance, albeit on the shelf in the background

[t-b-g]

I see the ploughing engines have made an early appearance, albeit on the shelf in the background

 

They get everywhere! I can't see that even our imagination can come up with a plan to get them on the quayside....... unless of course they are going for export! There's a thought!!

[pete55]

They get everywhere! I can't see that even our imagination can come up with a plan to get them on the quayside....... unless of course they are going for export! There's a thought!!

 

 

Hiya,

you'll need a large model of an equally large floating crane then to unload or load them..........must have had such a monster at Grimsby docks!

[andytrains]

Excellent. Look forward to seeing it at Expo.

Andy.

[scanman]

Hi Guys -

 

Love the 'dockside' theme (as a nautical archaeologist I would!) and your time frame (early 20thC is intersting. Have you thought about what fishing craft would be alongside? My thesis for my BA in archaeology was based on the discovery of a hulked vessel in Shoreham (Sussex. The little (visible) remains suggested a large rowing boat - however she turned out to be a Lowestoft-built fishing trawler (the 'Resolute'). Built in 1890 she was sail-powered only - and research for the thesis showed this formed the majority of the fishing fleet in your period... So if you want plans & some photo's of a scale model (not built by me!) let me know!

[Forward!]

Hi,

 

with the transit sheds in place it looks more and more like New Holland dock before about 1930, sans the huge mechanical coaling tower though! The cranes there were equally light, for the most part the cargo handling winches on the sailing vessels were used for loading (that said, mainly bulk cargoes of grain and coal were being handled there, I doubt anything like a steam engine was ever loaded at the dock.)

 

You might be interested to know that at Grimsby docks (at least until the 1930s) a good portion of the infilled track was edged with timber baulks rather than stone sets. In 7mm scale I have had moderate sucess replicating this using a single long piece of 2mm square limewood which was pinned to the curve whilst still wet, allowed to 'set' to the curve, weathered in situ and then the infill was poured in plaster with the cobbles etched in when dry. I made the baulks a little higher than the rail and the weight of 7mm stock on the soft limewood has resulted in a very pleasing wearing down of the wood! A purely intentional effect.... ahem....

 

Will

[t-b-g]

Hi,

 

with the transit sheds in place it looks more and more like New Holland dock before about 1930, sans the huge mechanical coaling tower though! The cranes there were equally light, for the most part the cargo handling winches on the sailing vessels were used for loading (that said, mainly bulk cargoes of grain and coal were being handled there, I doubt anything like a steam engine was ever loaded at the dock.)

 

You might be interested to know that at Grimsby docks (at least until the 1930s) a good portion of the infilled track was edged with timber baulks rather than stone sets. In 7mm scale I have had moderate sucess replicating this using a single long piece of 2mm square limewood which was pinned to the curve whilst still wet, allowed to 'set' to the curve, weathered in situ and then the infill was poured in plaster with the cobbles etched in when dry. I made the baulks a little higher than the rail and the weight of 7mm stock on the soft limewood has resulted in a very pleasing wearing down of the wood! A purely intentional effect.... ahem....

 

Will

 

Many thanks for the comments Will. There is still a small area of stone inlaid track to complete and a timber baulk sounds like a good idea to add a bit of variety. I did scribe all the stones on Narrow Road (15,000 give or take!) so I chickened out in the hope that using the Wills sheets would be quicker. There has been so much time spent on cutting and loining, especially round curves, that scribing may have been the quicker option! Are you aware if any track in the docks was just filled up to rail level with ash/stone/general crud? I wanted to do some like that to vary the appearance over the board but it would be good to know if some was really like that! The bit I am thinking of is off the actual quayside, on the track on and off the scene.

[Forward!]

''Are you aware if any track in the docks was just filled up to rail level with ash/stone/general crud?''

 

Yes! Most of the track in the fish dock was concrete or cobble infilled because the track ran down roads, but as far as I can see from pictures of Grimsby pre-1930 the only parts of the old Royal Dock where cobble infilled track was used was on the quaysides themselves. Everywhere else it appears ash ballast was used. At New Holland, similar scale to 'Sutton Dock' I think only the one track on the west side of the dock was infilled, the rest was buried in 'general crud'.

 

Will

[t-b-g]

''Are you aware if any track in the docks was just filled up to rail level with ash/stone/general crud?''

 

Yes! Most of the track in the fish dock was concrete or cobble infilled because the track ran down roads, but as far as I can see from pictures of Grimsby pre-1930 the only parts of the old Royal Dock where cobble infilled track was used was on the quaysides themselves. Everywhere else it appears ash ballast was used. At New Holland, similar scale to 'Sutton Dock' I think only the one track on the west side of the dock was infilled, the rest was buried in 'general crud'.

 

Will

 

Many thanks Will, that is just what I wanted to see!!

[Forward!]

Hi,

 

Finally got round to scanning this postcard from my collection- This is New Holland dock, taken from the railway ferry pier I guess early 20th century. I haven't actually identified the ferry positively yet- I'm not sure it is P.S. Grimsby or P.S. Cleethorpes although it looks similar. I wish I had more, but I doubt many were ever taken of the dock sheds themselves. Searching online usually just brings up endless pictures of tractors....!

 

 

 

I think the similarities to your Sutton Dock is striking!!

[t-b-g]

Hi,

 

Finally got round to scanning this postcard from my collection- This is New Holland dock, taken from the railway ferry pier I guess early 20th century. I haven't actually identified the ferry positively yet- I'm not sure it is P.S. Grimsby or P.S. Cleethorpes although it looks similar. I wish I had more, but I doubt many were ever taken of the dock sheds themselves. Searching online usually just brings up endless pictures of tractors....!

 

 

 

I think the similarities to your Sutton Dock is striking!!

 

What a fantastic photo! Many thanks. I had been searching for something like that to prove to myself that what was in my head could actually be real and you have done it for me! I have seen an arial shot of Grimsby docks, which shows the roofs of the sheds but that postcard is pure magic as far as I am concerned!