42xx Hornby 42xx& 72xx - first glimpses

[7013]

Apologies Andy I should have written He may not have read RMweb's thread, which you indicate he has, which makes his letter to MRE and not RMweb even more strange because there have been very few postings regarding these locos on that site.

However that said the nature of the postings on this thread relate to a number of issues, mechanical problems, paint finish, quality control, availability and  price to name five. I do not want to appear to be bashing Hornby in fact I have always spoken out against those who routinely berate Hornby because it is somehow fashionable to do so.

But if I were in Simon Kohler's position I would want to find out as much information as possible before putting out such a statement.. Simply asking someone to check how many returns they have had tells him very little, whereas this thread with 1200+ postings will reflect what the consumers (both actual and potential) thoughts are.

Of course not all of the postings are negative, and there are a lot of positives about this model, but I hope you would agree there are a lot of valid concerns by respected modellers in our hobby and not just the hot headed Hornby bashers, and whilst it is good to see a response from Simon his thoughts on the concerns expressed on this site would probably be more appropriate.

[7013]

Isn't the legal position over faulty goods the same for model trains as for anything else? Take it back to the retailer who will then return it to Hornby.

 

You wouldn't fix a faulty washing machine if it was broken on delivery after all.

Now that is strange Phil, when I posted a similar point I had three people disagree, whereas you get likes and agrees! 

The position is regarding the sale of goods act is that if an item is not fit for purpose, in the case of these locos it would be the quoted problems with the rods/quartering or anything in fact that prevented proper running then the consumer is entitled to a replacement or refund.

If people choose to do their own repairs/modifications the manufacturer can rightfully refuse either replacement or refund if that model subsequently fails again.

[melmerby]

Now that is strange Phil, when I posted a similar point I had three people disagree, whereas you get likes and agrees! 

The position is regarding the sale of goods act is that if an item is not fit for purpose, in the case of these locos it would be the quoted problems with the rods/quartering or anything in fact that prevented proper running then the consumer is entitled to a replacement or refund.

If people choose to do their own repairs/modifications the manufacturer can rightfully refuse either replacement or refund if that model subsequently fails again.

I agree completely with your statement.

With new items the position is that you take it back (or send it back) to whoever sold it to you. They are legally responsible.

If the manufacturer wishes to take responsibility away from the retailer, it is up to them but is not a legal requirement.

 

(I have a vacuum cleaner and on it, it states quite categorically Do not take back to retailer, contact us directly for service or repair)

 

Keith

[gwrrob]

I have to admit that I'm disappointed that Simon Kohler hasn't been in touch with Andy concerning this thread.I think its Pat Hammonds respected influence from way back on MREmag as much as anything but I think he's burying his head in the sand on the faults found on these models.Its great to take the plaudits when things are great but its better to put your hand up when there is a problem.Like 7013 has said 1200+ postings on his firms model.Come on.

[MG 7305]

One of those returned models at Margate than Simon Kohler referred to in MREMAG was sold to me.  I bought it a month ago and it was returned to the retailer 3 weeks ago.  When I chased up the replacement I was assured that one was physically in Margate and earmarked against the return.  However it was explained that Hornby would not send a single model to a retailer in the UK!  I would expect that having supplied faulty goods, a customer focused company would supply the replacement by return.  Hornby would appear not to fall into this category. 

 

In general I like the models, and await the balance of my order for one of each in July...August...September....

[Horsetan]

Meanwhile, at PDK's home in Cornwall, Dave and Sheila King sit next to a stack of 42xx and 72xx kits, and wait to see what happens next....

[Andy Y]

I have to admit that I'm disappointed that Simon Kohler hasn't been in touch with Andy concerning this thread.I think its Pat Hammonds respected influence from way back on MREmag as much as anything but I think he's burying his head in the sand on the faults found on these models.Its great to take the plaudits when things are great but its better to put your hand up when there is a problem.Like 7013 has said 1200+ postings on his firms model.Come on.

I did try to call Simon about this yesterday but he's away until Tuesday.

 

The flames seem to have been fanned by some that I wouldn't think would have an interest in the specific product but have used it to register concerns about future potential releases and it seems in some cases that some people have been on an active search to find faults to add to the list.

 

Let's just keep it level-headed, it's beginning to sound like some are calling for blood. a.) It's a bank holiday weekend and b.) Let's keep some perspective about it.

[Pendennis]

I have to admit that I'm disappointed that Simon Kohler hasn't been in touch with Andy concerning this thread.I think its Pat Hammonds respected influence from way back on MREmag as much as anything but I think he's burying his head in the sand on the faults found on these models.Its great to take the plaudits when things are great but its better to put your hand up when there is a problem.Like 7013 has said 1200+ postings on his firms model.Come on.

I do not own a Hornby 8-coupled tank; in fact I’ve not seen one yet so all I know about them has come from this and other threads. However I am not surprised that Simon Kohler has chosen to post on MRexMag rather than here on RMWeb: the former is more like an edited letters page whilst here we are on a moderated forum.

 

It appears most of the “gripes” are about the product that has been offered for sale – the quality of the finish, the mechanical design etc.; there have been few complaints about a faulty product per se. When a manufacturer offers a product for sale, the potential customer has the option to purchase the item or not. It is unfortunate that in this case many people have placed advanced orders on the basis of the manufacturer’s past performance. Here Hornby have let themselves down but it has to be said that some of the shortcomings people are complaining about, moulded smokebox handle and fixed buffers for example, were known well in advance.

 

Presumably Hornby [including SK] have signed off on a product of this quality and therefore have no reason to comment further. However I believe it is likely that this will do long-term harm to Hornby; I wouldn’t think the 8-coupled tanks are aimed at the toy set market and the discerning modeller will say “once bitten, twice shy”. I have stalled on any more advanced purchases of “red box” products.

[S.A.C Martin]

The flames seem to have been fanned by some that I wouldn't think would have an interest in the specific product but have used it to register concerns about future potential releases and it seems in some cases that some people have been on an active search to find faults to add to the list.

You seem to have missed the point quite spectacularly: the entire point of the discussion on the 42xx releases is precisely because of future releases from Hornby.

 

Of course people - myself included - are going to make points about a slip in quality, particularly if a subject Hornby is making in future is close to our hearts.

 

It's because we don't want them making the same mistakes again. It's for Hornbys and our mutual benefit. A model at the price and standards we've come to expect.

 

Lets just keep it level-headed, it's beginning to sound like some are calling for blood. a.) It's a bank holiday weekend and b.) Let's keep some perspective about it.

Oh please. As if anyone here has actually done that. There's a lot of disappointment, a lot of careful examination of the product, and a lot of support for a specific point of view. Baying for blood? You are over egging the supposed over egging.

 

Whether we're going to buy a heavy tank or not, its development affects everyone who is looking to buy future Hornby products.

 

If we are not allowed to say we're not happy with the new status quo (as you are dangerously close to intimating), then you're effectively inviting Hornby to fall even further.

 

Frankly I'd rather tell it as it is, and give Hornby my honest view, than dress anything up with platitudes and generally incomprehensible double speak.

[Andy Y]

Simon; stop pushing buttons please (again).

 

I don't have an issue with people raising specifics but I'm bored of some of the banging on.

[Andy Y]

Right; seeing as someone decided it would be good to try and argue the toss (again) I'll lock this until next week as I've got other things on over the next few days.

 

 

[Andy Y]

I've had a lengthy chat with Simon Kohler this morning regarding this topic and its content.

 

As stated before Simon's been aware of the content and he understandably felt frustrated about walking into a hostile environment which seemed more about opinion than specifics that could be addressed and, like I did, he looked at whether these were buyers of that specific product. Simon has affirmed that, as ever, he's more than happy to receive direct contact about specific issues that someone may have so he can discuss and resolve where possible. We all know he does that and is happy to do so.

 

Where there's a design issue that's been criticsed they're already being considered and looked at for the future but with changes in sources to the supply chain it's disappointing when specifics slip through. To address those specifics would lead to further delays and some criticism on that front too but I can honestly see they're trying to bring a respectable model to market during a time of transition. Is it perfect? Obviously not but the voices of discontent have been read and will be considered.

 

As a litmus test to look at specifics Simon, as stated on MREmag, spoke to customer services to look at the returns impact and it was found to be a low number in proportion to what had been shipped and sold; furthermore he's not had a single letter, email or call of complaint over anything relating to these tanks.

 

I'd described this to Simon as a 'perfect storm of opinion' which had brewed up from cold fronts of delays, pricing expectations, availability and design details to try and qualify why opinion was as it is and he understands that.

 

So, if you've got a specific issue that needs to be addressed drop Simon an email but please let's stop repeating what's already been said.